[STR-Neutral] Goliath the Guardian Golem

[NHP54]

Foreword: I am looking for genuinely honest feedback about this suggestion. Please provide reasons to why something is good or bad. I designed this hero with the intention of emphasizing a player role that is taken for granted in DotA: supporting. Many players use heroes selfishly, so I feel that DotA needs more heroes to change this troubling fact. Also, keep in mind that numbers can always be changed, so the concept is the main focus.

Changelog:

3/3/10
- Tweaked the AoE of Bodyguard's bonuses/conditions to be 750.

3/2/10
- Tweaked Sanctuary Stone's cleansing burst to affect Goliath.
- Reduced the AoE of the Sanctuary Stone a bit.
- Changed Lifeline.
- Old Lifeline below.

Lifeline [F] (Buff for Ally Heroes Only)



Skill Notes

- The attack interruption effect checks as an attack begins, not as the attack finishes.
- The fatal blow applies when an ally hero's HP goes to 0.
- If an ally hero has the Shallow Grave buff, this spell will not activate its rescue effect.
- This buff can be purged.
- Towers will not be hurt by Lifeline's counter effect.
- If an enemy unit dies from this spell, then Goliath will receive the Kill and Gold.
- A Techies with this buff will still die normally while using Suicide Squad, Attack!
- If Nerubian Weaver happens to attack during a Geminate Attack, the bonus attack will still carry out even after receiving the attack interruption.
- If one Meepo has this buff, and another Meepo dies, then all the Meepos die, regardless. Only the Meepo with the Lifeline effect can receive the rescue effect.
- Goliath cannot cast this on itself.

Note* Leak- changed named to Mystique-.

2/20/10
Credit to BiLLiO333
- Modified the Aghanim's Scepter upgrade for Sanctuary Stone.

2/17/10
- Lowered mana cost of Sanctuary Stone.
- Decreased protection energy limits back to previous numbers.
- Rescaled mana cost of Rampart Rush.
- Scaled Lifeline's mana cost a bit.

2/16/10
- Modified Sanctuary Stone's Aghanim's Scepter upgrade by removing the mana cost reduction, but it now allows Goliath to split a physical damage source with itself. The cooldown improvement has been upgraded as well.
- Adjusted Sanctuary Stone's protection energy values a bit.
- Scaled Rampart Rush's mana costs.
- Added random tidbits to some "Skill Notes."
- Reduced Lifeline's duration.

2/15/10
Credit to Leak-
- Re-adjusted Sanctuary Stone's Aghanim's Scepter upgrade to affect mana and cooldown ratings.

2/14/10
- Slightly expanded the "How I Would Play This Hero" section.

Credit to Leak-
- Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade to Sanctuary Stone.

2/13/10
- Clarified Bodyguard's effect in "Skill Notes."

2/9/10
- Added tidbit about Rampart Rush not being able to move over cliffs.

2/6/10
- Added the "How I Would Play This Hero" section.
- Lowered the mana cost of Sanctuary Stone.

Credit to Ali Radicali
- Changed Bodyguard's characteristics.
- Cut Avenger buff's duration in half and increased the damage.
- Decreased the cooldown of Sanctuary Stone.

2/5/10
Credit to Ali Radicali
- Altered stats.
- Decreased Sanctuary Stone's duration.

Credit to Leak-
- Decreased Sanctuary Stone's cleansing effect to 800 AoE.
- Expanded Ideal Items & Allies section.

2/4/10
- Modified stats.
- Changed the mana cost of Rampart Rush from 150 to 120.
- Slightly tweaked the mana cost of Lifeline.
- Lowered the damage effect of Lifeline to correlate with decreased mana.
- Added an armor bonus to Bodyguard's Avenger buff.
- Lowered the cooldown ratings for Sanctuary Stone at Level 2 and 3.
- Increased the HP of Sanctuary Stone for all levels.
- Increased bounty for Sanctuary Stone from 150 to 175 Gold.
- Added Pros & Cons section.
- Reduced Sanctuary Stone's damage limit at all levels.

Credit to Leak-
- Added spoiler tags for notes to clean up space.
- Made Avenger buffs vulnerable to Purge.

2/3/10
Credit to Leak-
- Changed Sanctuary Stone's protection from all types of damage to just physical.
- Changed Sanctuary Stone's cleansing effect to activate just once.
- Added new conditions for Sanctuary Stone's cleansing effect: energy depletion at 100%, stone is destroyed or duration expires.
- Added armor to the Sanctuary Stone.

Goliath
Guardian Golem

With steel forged for servitude, and a sacred scroll to act as its heart and soul, the Guardian Golem feels nothing but the resolve to fend for others. Given the name Goliath because of its mighty stature, this protector diligently defends those under its watch. As its allies begin facing imminent danger, this golem's already-daunting power further augments to address the situation. Goliath also delivers bone-breaking tackles to opposing threats while it safeguards comrades with defensive spells. Rest assured that the warring faction to acquire Goliath's services will gain a vigilant vanguard.

Skill Set

Rampart Rush [R] (Attack-based Spell)



Skill Notes

Effects Section Key Due to Space*
A - Armor
PD - Physical Damage
KB - Knock Back

- The player cannot manually stop Goliath after activating this skill.
- The speed of the spell is directly related to Goliath's current movement speed and an additional 100.
- The armor reduction applies before the physical damage, meaning the overall damage will be greater.
- The spell stops if Goliath is disabled.
- Goliath will go through allies while lunging forward.
- Goliath will stop and use the secondary attack if it reaches a dead end or something obscures its path, like Earthshaker's Fissure wall.
- Goliath may not use this skill to cross over ledges.
- The secondary attack has a 200 AoE.
- Goliath will destroy any tree it collides with as it is charging forward.
- The initial foe who is knocked back will also destroy trees.

Lifeline [F] (Nuke/Heal Spell)


Skill Notes

- The armor reduction applies first and then deals the physical damage.
- The fatal blow applies when an ally hero's (or Goliath's) HP goes to 0.
- The heal/rescue effects occur simultaneously as an enemy takes damage.
- When the rescue effect applies, the reduced armor debuff is still active for the remaining duration.
- The rescue effect does not trigger another armor-reducing instance.
- If the skill is used right as an ally hero is dying, then the initial effect will still occur with the rescue effect still being available.
- If more than one ally hero (including Goliath) dies at the same time somehow, then the rescue effect will be applied randomly.
- If an ally hero has the Shallow Grave buff, this spell will not activate its rescue effect.
- Only enemy heroes may be targeted with this skill.
- This buff can be purged.
- If an enemy unit dies from this spell, then Goliath will receive the Kill and Gold.
- A Techies using Suicide Squad, Attack! will not be saved by the rescue effect.
- The Meepo with the lowest HP% will be healed.
- Only one Meepo can be saved by the rescue effect.
- Goliath can receive the rescue effects.

Bodyguard [B] (Ally Hero-based Passive)




Skill Notes

- Goliath does not activate Defender or Avenger buffs if it is dying.
- Goliath and allies can have Defender buffs indefinitely, but only as long as the ally heroes within range have low enough HP and do not die.
- Goliath and allies lose a Defender buff whenever an ally hero dies but could then receive an Avenger buff.
- An Avenger buff can still be received even when a Defender buff was not currently active. For example, a hero with a high-damaging move could instantly kill an ally hero who is not quite at 40% or lower, making it impossible for Goliath or allies to receive the Defender buff. Despite this fact, as long as the killed hero was within range, Goliath will still release the Avenger buff's AoE.
- Avenger buffs will refresh the current duration if a new Avenger buff is received.
- Avenger buffs may be purged off.
- Ally creeps or summons will not be affected by these buffs.
- Only one Defender buff can be received from an ally Meepo and his clones.
- Only one Avenger buff can be received when an ally Meepo dies.

Sanctuary Stone [E] (Defensive Spell for Ally Heroes)



Sanctuary Stone [E] (Aghanim's Scepter Upgrade)


Skill Notes

- Only ally heroes are affected by this skill.
- The stone is spell immune.
- The stone has 15 Fortified Armor at all levels.
- Only physical damage is applied to this effect.
- Excess damage is applied to armor.
- A counter gauge, which enemies cannot see, will appear above the stone to indicate how much protection energy it has left.
- An AoE visual that can be seen by friend or foe allows players to see which ally heroes are in the Sanctuary Stone's protection range.
- The AoE cleansing effect applies once when the stone uses up half of the protection energy or when the stone is destroyed/denied.
- The cleansing effect will also activate when the spell duration expires.
- The Sanctuary Stone destroys itself whenever it exhausts its protection limit.
- The spell automatically stops if the stone is destroyed or shattered naturally.
- The stone can be denied to activate the cleansing burst.
- The stone gives 175 Gold if destroyed by an enemy hero.
- Goliath does not receive any physical protection from the stone, but it can receive AoE cleansing effects from the stone.

Synergy Section

+ +
The bonuses from Bodyguard allow for Goliath and allies to be more menacing toward the other team. The extra bonuses from Bodyguard allows Goliath and allies to punish enemies with high physical damage output because of the enemies' reduced armor.

+
Enemies who suffer reduced armor from Rampart Rush will then suffer extra damage from Lifeline's armor-reducing/nuking properties.

+
Allies who gain the benefits from these protection spells are going to be tough to kill.

Pros & Cons

[+] High tanking capabilities because of HP and armor.
[+] Good physical damage output.
[+] Bodyguard bonuses make Goliath a pseudo-carry option.
[+] Doubles as a support hero because of protection spells.

[–] Naturally slow.
[–] Low INT rating means a smaller mana pool to work with, which means less spells.
[–] Skills are less effective when Goliath is not with allies.
[–] Spells have nothing to do with magic damage.

Ideal Items & Allies

Acquiring tank items will allow Goliath to live longer, allowing it to fulfill its role for extended periods.


Getting support items will allow Goliath to serve its team in many beneficial ways.


Shooting for big luxury items will make Goliath a significant threat to any opposing team.


Using Goliath in conjunction with other heroes with support-focused spells would grant a team lots of protection.


Goliath would be a great option for defending heroes who must initiate.


Carries would welcome Goliath's defensive spells with open arms. Carries who are able to survive longer can thus dish out more DPS.

Gameplay Design

-Rampart Rush acts as Goliath's versatile skill.

- Goliath's remaining skills are all centered around ally heroes, so a player must be near allies to make them work. This is to encourage being a bodyguard for your allies.

- Lifeline is intended for keeping allies alive, but it has an option of helping Goliath as well.

- Bodyguard promotes staying near allies to watch their backs. The Avenger bonus is intended for compensating an ally who dies under Goliath's watch.

- The Sanctuary Stone must be used with allies to extend their survivability. Because Goliath can't gain any of the stone's benefits, a player cannot use the spell for themselves.

- Basically, players cannot be selfish if they want to play this hero well. This hero design was inspired from the fact that many heroes in DotA can be played with a self-centered attitude.

- With a majority of this hero's moves being geared toward protecting allies, a Goliath player must think about how to help others as opposed to caring about just themselves.

- Goliath's role is a mix between a tank and a support. Goliath is designed to be beefy so it can soak tons of damage, meaning it can thus have more opportunities to protect allies. Because of its usefulness for a team, enemies would have a reason to focus fire Goliath in battles.

- Taking the heat off from allies would be the ideal thing for a Goliath player to do. Being a tank for a team means one must be willing to enter the fray while willing to die, if necessary.

How I Would Play This Hero

Skill Build
1. Rampart Rush
2. Lifeline
3. Bodyguard
4. Bodyguard
5. Bodyguard
6. Sanctuary Stone
7. Bodyguard
8. Rampart Rush
9. Rampart Rush
10. Rampart Rush
11. Sanctuary Stone
12. Lifeline
13. Lifeline
14. Lifeline
15. Stats
16. Sanctuary Stone



Justification: Only one level of Rampart Rush is leveled at the start to give Goliath an offensive move. One level of Lifeline is grabbed at Level 2 for emergencies as Goliath would ideally serve as a babysitter during the laning phase. Additionally, the mana cost of Lifeline is low enough for Goliath's weak mana pool, allowing Goliath to realistically manage his spells adequately at the start. Meanwhile, Bodyguard is maxed quite early starting at Level 3, allowing Goliath to have the handy bonuses ready at the delicate early game phase. Goliath's ultimate is grabbed whenever possible because cutting physical damage in half can prove tough for the opposing team to deal with at times.

[Mystique-]

I may be saying seemingly obviously things, but I'm doing it to make sure I understand how this hero works .

Anyways, with pipe, this guy will be unstoppable.

NOTE: all these buffs only protect from attack damage right? Not spell damage? (lifeline and stone)

Rampart rush: Great skill - What is the duration(6) exactly?

Lifeline - first though that came to my mind is that its kind of like shallow grave(the blocking fatal blow part at least).

Bodyguard - wow, this may need a lot of playtesting to ensure balance. This is conceptually awesome though. You should add in the main skill description that avenger buff replaces defender buff- since thats what players will be reading in-game.
Another thing: Avenger buffs will refresh the current duration if a new Avenger buff is received., but Goliath can still receive up to 4 of each buff type? Am i missing something, because i'm kind of confused at what all this precisely means.

Sanctuary Stone: okay, this seems really imbalanced numbers-wise. The concept is great, but I believe the numbers are also important - especially since this skill is so dependent on numbers. It blocks so much damage AND also removes negative buffs multiple times? I think the cleansing effect should occur at most once, if at all; and the damage block should be lowered.


All in all, I think this is a great hero suggestion. It's definitely unique of its type; I love the defender theme and I believe you stuck to it on the hero extremely well! All of the skills are really synergistic; both in icon-cosmetics and in terms of gameplay. I immensely enjoyed reading this suggestion and I strongly hope that this hero, or some variant of this hero, gets implemented into DotA.

How will this guy function - DU or -MM?
Like 5v5, with all heroes are goliath the guardian golem. Not very effective, eh?

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

I may be saying seemingly obviously things, but I'm doing it to make sure I understand how this hero works .

Anyways, with pipe, this guy will be unstoppable.

NOTE: all these buffs only protect from attack damage right? Not spell damage? (lifeline and stone)

Rampart rush: Great skill - What is the duration(6) exactly?

Lifeline - first though that came to my mind is that its kind of like shallow grave(the blocking fatal blow part at least).

Bodyguard - wow, this may need a lot of playtesting to ensure balance. This is conceptually awesome though. You should add in the main skill description that avenger buff replaces defender buff- since thats what players will be reading in-game.
Another thing: Avenger buffs will refresh the current duration if a new Avenger buff is received., but Goliath can still receive up to 4 of each buff type? Am i missing something, because i'm kind of confused at what all this precisely means.

Sanctuary Stone: okay, this seems really imbalanced numbers-wise. The concept is great, but I believe the numbers are also important - especially since this skill is so dependent on numbers. It blocks so much damage AND also removes negative buffs multiple times? I think the cleansing effect should occur at most once, if at all; and the damage block should be lowered.


All in all, I think this is a great hero suggestion. It's definitely unique of its type; I love the defender theme and I believe you stuck to it on the hero extremely well! All of the skills are really synergistic; both in icon-cosmetics and in terms of gameplay. I immensely enjoyed reading this suggestion and I strongly hope that this hero, or some variant of this hero, gets implemented into DotA.

How will this guy function - DU or -MM?
Like 5v5, with all heroes are goliath the guardian golem. Not very effective, eh?

Thanks for the feedback.

Ya, the numbers are arbitrary at this point, but at least you enjoy the concept.

As for your questions:

- Rampart Rush is just a point-and-click move, so a player would aim it like PotM's arrow. The duration thing was supposed to be N/A. Fixed.

- Lifeline does not protect against damage directly, as the ally hero still takes damage. Basically, you want to think of the move as an Axe Counter Helix mixed with an Invoker Deafening Blast. Buffed targets still take damage, but it's just that it delays back-to-back physical attacks. The HP retention is just a bonus.

- I just wanted more speed on Goliath so it can get to allies faster, while the faster attack speed kind of creates a scare factor for enemies.

- The refreshing Avenger buffs simply mean that a new buff will just extend the duration. For example, let's say you have one Avenger buff on hand. Another ally hero dies while in your presence. You will then get another Avenger buff on top of your current one, but the total duration is reset. When the duration expires, all of the buffs go away.

- Sanctuary Stone works like the Warcraft III Spirit Link spell, but the difference involves how the damage reduction effect is 50% and is between the individual ally hero and the stone's energy. And yes, the damage reduction would reduce both physical and spell damage.

- The bonus cleansing effect was a wild thought that I decided to include. I felt that the stone just absorbing damage wasn't enough, so I opted for a little more. I have considered other conditions as well, like the stone releasing the effect only if the stone is destroyed/denied.

I just feel that DotA has too many heroes that cater to selfish players more instead of team players. For example, even Dazzle players can play selfishly, and he is designed to be a support hero. I have seen Dazzle players use their heals sparingly and even save Shallow Grave for just themselves.

To combat this fact, I wanted this hero to be restricted in the sense that most of the skills rely on being near allies. Without the option of using the move selfishly, a player must be selfless if they want to play this hero correctly.

But ya, I am open for number suggestions. The numbers were tricky to figure out.

[Mystique-]

So Sanctuary Stone is like a free pipe + damage block + AOE mulitple purge? That seems is severely imbalanced. Saying heroes with the current stone buff will be tough to kill is an extreme understatement - a better saying would be that they are be impossible to kill.

Here are some of my balance tips:

• Keep the damage block and AOE purge, but remove spell block. Spell protection really seems overboard; especially if players also decide to get pipe as well. I think this hero is just better sticking to only blocking regular attack damage - that way, its synergistic with Lifeline as well.
• I know you considered this, but I think you should re-consider! Have the AOE purge of debuffs only activate ONCE; It makes more sense thematically - the stone blows up and releases its cleansing energy stored inside. And is more balanced.

The concept of Sanctuary Stone is excellent though - I just think its needs some minor tweaking.

OH quick post-addition:
How would this hero function with other multiple guardian golems(-DU for example)? Lifeline and Stone will work on those golems right(cannot be casted onto itself, but can be casted onto other golems)? There also should be some kind of differentiation between Goliath the Guardian Golem and the Siege Golem super-creep

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

So Sanctuary Stone is like a free pipe + damage block + AOE mulitple purge? That seems is severely imbalanced. Saying heroes with the current stone buff will be tough to kill is an extreme understatement - a better saying would be that they are be impossible to kill.

Here are some of my balance tips:

• Keep the damage block and AOE purge, but remove spell block. Spell protection really seems overboard; especially if players also decide to get pipe as well. I think this hero is just better sticking to only blocking regular attack damage - that way, its synergistic with Lifeline as well.
• I know you considered this, but I think you should re-consider! Have the AOE purge of debuffs only activate ONCE; It makes more sense thematically - the stone blows up and releases its cleansing energy stored inside. And is more balanced.

The concept of Sanctuary Stone is excellent though - I just think its needs some minor tweaking.

OH quick post-addition:
How would this hero function with other multiple guardian golems(-DU for example)? Lifeline and Stone will work on those golems right(cannot be casted onto itself, but can be casted onto other golems)? There also should be some kind of differentiation between Goliath the Guardian Golem and the Siege Golem super-creep

Hmm, you make a strong case. For now, I will alter the damage division to just physical damage. I will also tweak the cleansing effect to when the stone depletes its energy and/or when the stone is destroyed.

And yes, Goliath would be able to use its spells on other Guardian Golems.

And the Siege Golem super creep could always be changed to something else, or Goliath's model could be swapped to a different golem model, preferably not one of the rock ones.

Edit: My only gripe with limiting the stone's damage protection to only physical means that this move would be more along the lines of Omniknight's Guardian Angel too much. I feel that it could use a little something extra to distinguish it more ...

[Mystique-]

Personally, I think limiting to only blocking physical damage makes this hero more unique and specialized. I don't think its necessarily to add too many characteristics to a spell - simple, but specific, is always the best!Also, the steel that composes Goliath's body fits quite nicely with the hero-theme of defense against physical attacks

In the Stone Sanctuary story: Since you changed the stone to only release the cleansing spell when the stone is destroyed, I don't think you need the "each time" part( it can be replaced with "when").

Body Guard: Is it possible to to gain an Avenger buff without gaining a Defender buff? Say an allied hero at full health is insta-gibbed[from Lion's Ult, for example] and dies immediately. Would this only give an Avenger buff?

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

Personally, I think limiting to only blocking physical damage makes this hero more unique and specialized. I don't think its necessarily to add too many characteristics to a spell - simple, but specific, is always the best!Also, the steel that composes Goliath's body fits quite nicely with the hero-theme of defense against physical attacks

In the Stone Sanctuary story: Since you changed the stone to only release the cleansing spell when the stone is destroyed, I don't think you need the "each time" part( it can be replaced with "when").

Body Guard: Is it possible to to gain an Avenger buff without gaining a Defender buff? Say an allied hero at full health is insta-gibbed[from Lion's Ult, for example] and dies immediately. Would this only give an Avenger buff?

- Hmm, it's just tempting to throw another bonus to it, maybe even a slight HP regeneration bonus. It's just that Omniknight's Guardian Angel, for example, would essentially outclass this ultimate in a sense because people become physically immune for a short amount of time, while this move stops some of the damage during a longer period. Then again, I could imagine that having both of these on the same team would be so annoying to deal with. So as of right now, I am contemplating some different elements for this ultimate.

- The sentence is fixed.

- My intention was to allow Goliath to still receive the Avenger buff as long as the dying hero is within range. I will tweak the notes a bit to make it clearer.

[Mystique-]

Originally Posted by NHP54

- Hmm, it's just tempting to throw another bonus to it, maybe even a slight HP regeneration bonus. It's just that Omniknight's Guardian Angel, for example, would essentially outclass this ultimate in a sense because people become physically immune for a short amount of time, while this move stops some of the damage during a longer period. Then again, I could imagine that having both of these on the same team would be so annoying to deal with. So as of right now, I am contemplating some different elements for this ultimate.

Stone Sanctuary already has an AOE purge that removes "all" debuffs. That's two bonuses, just like Omniknight's GA.

Stone Sanctuary:

• Up to X damage block, if and only if Sanctuary Stone is not destroyed
• When Stone gets destroyed, release a HUGE aoe wave that essentially removes all debuffs(NO MORE STUNS YAY) to allied heroes.
• Additional note: If a bonus is really necessary, how about give some additional armor only to Goliath when sanctuary stone is alive and not depleted - or some other specific to goliath bonus?

Guardian Angel:

• +1000 Armor
• +25 HP regen
• Omniknight gets buff

Both ultimates provide 2 bonuses and only best utilized in specific situations. I don't see how GA outclasses Stone Sanctuary.

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

Stone Sanctuary already has an AOE purge that removes "all" debuffs. That's two bonuses, just like Omniknight's GA.

Stone Sanctuary:

• Up to X damage block, if and only if Sanctuary Stone is not destroyed
• When Stone gets destroyed, release a HUGE aoe wave that essentially removes all debuffs(NO MORE STUNS YAY) to allied heroes.
• Additional note: If a bonus is really necessary, how about give some additional armor only to Goliath when sanctuary stone is alive and not depleted - or some other specific to goliath bonus?

Guardian Angel:

• +1000 Armor
• +25 HP regen
• Omniknight gets buff

Both ultimates provide 2 bonuses and only best utilized in specific situations. I don't see how GA outclasses Stone Sanctuary.

Well, outclass would be the wrong word here. I am just trying to consider a reasonable effect to be added. I am open for some other suggestions.

[Mystique-]

The additional fortified armor bonus to the Sanctuary Stone seems reasonable

Couple random notes:

• Possible ultimate improvement through Aghanim's Scepter?
  • Stronger stone and/or lasts longer?
• Lifeline icon: Shows a hand casting a spell, but Goliath is a golem!(extremely minor)
• Defender Buff and Avenger Buff skills:
  • Defender: Wouldn't armor be more appropriate than attack speed? Armor fits along better with defense than attack speed does. [Each Defender buff gives increased movement speed and armor]
  • Avenger: Gains both increased damage and increased attack speed. [Each Avenger buff gives increased Attack Damage and Attack Speed; makes the golem more efficient in dishing out vengeance ]

[Rathman55]

Rathman Mini(ish) Review

Pros: + Good Supporter

+ Great for double laning

+ Encourages team play

+ Innovative concept

+ Kick ass model

+ Epic Stats

Neutral: = Ally only skills aren't

useful when alone.

= To supportive/only

real offensive ability

isn't that great.

Cons - Confused roles and stats?

- Useless in 1v1

- TANK SUPPORTER?

- Doesn't benefit from its own ultimate.

- Almost useless until more then 3v3

- Mana costs high for low intellect

Overall: First off, I applaud this idea. Second off, it still needs work and revise. All good ideas come behind a lot of work and editing. I've learned that myself with my own hero suggestion. However I like the siege golem idea. It's a completely unique model. The only similarities are Tiny and Roshan, but since they are made of rock they don't really compare. I think seeing that model just running around in DotA would be epic. Epic stats for an epic hero? I guess you think so. 6.6 overall stat gain fits though. It's not that bad, but 6.6 stat gain is pushing it per level. The average I believe is 6.1 ( Correct me if I'm wrong ). The highest stat gain in the game is Treant Protector weighing in at a whole 7.2. Which is a lot but it's justifiable seeing he has no real spells. Starting at 30 strength might be to much though.

I have no clue why you put the role "Tank". I thought he was a supporter. This is where I am confused about your hero. You give him strength and intellect like a tank, but your spells provide me to think that he should have intellect like a caster. Then it wouldn't fit the model. Is it that you are trying to support without being squishy? I hope not.

Rampart Rush
Skill 1

For this being your only true offensive ability you pulled it off almost perfect. It has good enough physical damage to hurt well enough. It would be a good chaser with the extra move speed. The range is a little low for that though, but that's nothing because I see what you're trying to achieve. It works okay with supporter because it does knockback, and the secondary attack stuns. But it relies heavy on you being a tank, because it throws you right into the middle of battle. Which leaves me to the question? Supporter or tank? Make your mind up. If he's a supporter change the stats, maybe the model too. If he's a tank make some of your other spells self cast-able and self benefiting.

One very important note: 150 mana with a 15 second cool down for a hero that starts with 220 mana?

Lifeline
Skill 2

Heres an example of a supporting spell. However I'm not sure I 100% understand it. I assume the duration quits and it's dispelled after who it is casted on gets hit? With that whole final blow thing, wouldn't that be hard to achieve? Unless that's the whole point. I guess this skill promotes being supportive, but it would be a lot better if it was self cast-able.

Body Gaurd
Passive Skill Three

I'll start by saying there are parts of this I don't like. The whole avengers aura is good in the sense of your pal beside you just died and you now can avenge him, but it seems almost selfish benefiting from an allies death. I do like the Defender aura though, because as a team falls it grows stronger. This is a really good ability to support his tanking. Leading back to my question Tank or Supporter?

Sanctuary Stone
Ultimate

My first thought of this spell is, "an ultimate that doesn't even help your own hero?" Perhaps I'm being selfish. But I don't see much motivation for this spell. Why? Because this spell requires a team fight. Something you have no control over. You might use it one a 3v3 and win but a minute later theres an epic 5v5 and you can't use it. It's a thought. Also alone or a small game that's an ultimate completely wasted.

Other wise this spell seems fine besides having to take down 1200 damage without spells might be difficult. But I guess it could be a true lifesaver, but it wouldn't benefit you anyways so they'd get you quick well you're the only vulnerable target, maybe the tank fits in a bit.

Conclusion

You really need to decide which one you want this hero to be more of. It's to split between supporter and tank. I like the idea though, a strength supporter. It's good. Needs some work

I'd appreciate it if you could look at my hero too, the link is in my sig.

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

The additional fortified armor bonus to the Sanctuary Stone seems reasonable

Couple random notes:

• Possible ultimate improvement through Aghanim's Scepter?
  • Stronger stone and/or lasts longer?
• Lifeline icon: Shows a hand casting a spell, but Goliath is a golem!(extremely minor)
• Defender Buff and Avenger Buff skills:
  • Defender: Wouldn't armor be more appropriate than attack speed? Armor fits along better with defense than attack speed does. [Each Defender buff gives increased movement speed and armor]
  • Avenger: Gains both increased damage and increased attack speed. [Each Avenger buff gives increased Attack Damage and Attack Speed; makes the golem more efficient in dishing out vengeance ]

- Aghanim's Scepter will be an intriguing idea. I purposely made it so Goliath would have beefy stats, except for his INT rating. Having a scepter option would justify higher numbers for his ultimate and would provide some much needed help for his bad INT rating.
- Ya, I am considering flipping some things around between the two buff types. I am also considering other radical ideas.

Originally Posted by Rathman55

Rathman Mini(ish) Review

Overall: First off, I applaud this idea. Second off, it still needs work and revise. All good ideas come behind a lot of work and editing. I've learned that myself with my own hero suggestion. However I like the siege golem idea. It's a completely unique model. The only similarities are Tiny and Roshan, but since they are made of rock they don't really compare. I think seeing that model just running around in DotA would be epic. Epic stats for an epic hero? I guess you think so. 6.6 overall stat gain fits though. It's not that bad, but 6.6 stat gain is pushing it per level. The average I believe is 6.1 ( Correct me if I'm wrong ). The highest stat gain in the game is Treant Protector weighing in at a whole 7.2. Which is a lot but it's justifiable seeing he has no real spells. Starting at 30 strength might be to much though.

I have no clue why you put the role "Tank". I thought he was a supporter. This is where I am confused about your hero. You give him strength and intellect like a tank, but your spells provide me to think that he should have intellect like a caster. Then it wouldn't fit the model. Is it that you are trying to support without being squishy? I hope not.

Rampart Rush
Skill 1

For this being your only true offensive ability you pulled it off almost perfect. It has good enough physical damage to hurt well enough. It would be a good chaser with the extra move speed. The range is a little low for that though, but that's nothing because I see what you're trying to achieve. It works okay with supporter because it does knockback, and the secondary attack stuns. But it relies heavy on you being a tank, because it throws you right into the middle of battle. Which leaves me to the question? Supporter or tank? Make your mind up. If he's a supporter change the stats, maybe the model too. If he's a tank make some of your other spells self cast-able and self benefiting.

One very important note: 150 mana with a 15 second cool down for a hero that starts with 220 mana?

Lifeline
Skill 2

Heres an example of a supporting spell. However I'm not sure I 100% understand it. I assume the duration quits and it's dispelled after who it is casted on gets hit? With that whole final blow thing, wouldn't that be hard to achieve? Unless that's the whole point. I guess this skill promotes being supportive, but it would be a lot better if it was self cast-able.

Body Gaurd
Passive Skill Three

I'll start by saying there are parts of this I don't like. The whole avengers aura is good in the sense of your pal beside you just died and you now can avenge him, but it seems almost selfish benefiting from an allies death. I do like the Defender aura though, because as a team falls it grows stronger. This is a really good ability to support his tanking. Leading back to my question Tank or Supporter?

Sanctuary Stone
Ultimate

My first thought of this spell is, "an ultimate that doesn't even help your own hero?" Perhaps I'm being selfish. But I don't see much motivation for this spell. Why? Because this spell requires a team fight. Something you have no control over. You might use it one a 3v3 and win but a minute later theres an epic 5v5 and you can't use it. It's a thought. Also alone or a small game that's an ultimate completely wasted.

Other wise this spell seems fine besides having to take down 1200 damage without spells might be difficult. But I guess it could be a true lifesaver, but it wouldn't benefit you anyways so they'd get you quick well you're the only vulnerable target, maybe the tank fits in a bit.

Conclusion

You really need to decide which one you want this hero to be more of. It's to split between supporter and tank. I like the idea though, a strength supporter. It's good. Needs some work

I'd appreciate it if you could look at my hero too, the link is in my sig.

Well honestly, I was going to put Tank/Support in the role section, but the spacing looked weird so I just left Tank.

As for your other inquiries:

- The numbers are arbitrary, so some feedback is needed on some more precise numbers for the stats. I want Goliath to have high HP, pretty high armor but very low INT to make his mana pool purposely limited.

- So you understand what I was trying to get at with Rampart Rush. Basically, I want Goliath to lean more toward being a tank with this move. If Goliath enters directly into the fray, then a player must be willing to soak up the damage and not be too afraid.

- The purpose of Lifeline is geared more toward protecting ally heroes and/or providing support to certain heroes who could benefit from the defensive properties. The 1-HP retention is intended to save lives, but you should count it more as the bonus rather than the main effect. I also made the move for ally heroes only because, this way, a player could not use this spell on themselves to be selfish.

- Sure, it may downplay some gameplay options, but my reasoning is quite simple. If a Goliath player cannot use the Lifeline spell on themselves, they will then by default have no choice but to use this on others. In other words, the only reasons why ally heroes wouldn't get this buff in situations would include: the Goliath player does not have enough mana, the spell is on cooldown or the Goliath player is a poor player for not being ready to use this skill on them. It may be forcing people to be team players, but that is the whole point of this hero's design in the first place.

- I am considering some changes for how Bodyguard works.

- I feel that there are too many ultimates in the game where players can selfishly use them for their own gain and not for the sake of the team. Again, the fact that only allies can get the effects may be forcing teamwork, but this is the real nature of this hero's gameplay that I want emphasized. If players cannot use this skill for themselves, and again, by default, they must then stick near allies to help them out.

Overall, I want Goliath to be a mix between a Tank and a Support hero as well as a possibility of being a pseudo carry that I explained in the post. I feel that a hybrid hero does not necessarily have to be an identity crisis, so it is just a matter of balancing the elements together until they work.

Thanks for your very thorough review. Please feel free to suggest some concrete numbers to adjust this hero into a well-balanced state.

[Mystique-]

@NHP54
I just realized that having both attack speed bonuses and damage bonuses may be too similar too Huskar's Berserker's blood , even though it fits the theme of avenger really well. What kind of other ideas are you thinking of?

@Rathman55
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a hybrid of tank/support. Abbadon, Dirge and maybe even Omniknight and DS can all be considered prime examples of BOTH tank and supporting heroes. I don't understand why you believe that having more than one role is bad; the best heroes are the versatile heroes - those that not limited to only one specific role.

[Rathman55]

I think these are good. If there wrong somebody will probably correct me. It's something to look into. At least one of these. Then you can base all your other stats off them. I put them in a spoiler box because they take up a lot of room. The build numbers are colour coded

You can use any of these though.

Cyan=Good | Red= Pushing it ( Number Wise ex 6.65 NOT AGILITY )

All non leveling stats in these builds add to 46... A fairly consistent average.

6.3 Point Builds

Strength - 24 + 3.0
Agility - 12 +2.1
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.

Strength - 26 + 3.6
Agility - 10 +1.5
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.

Strength - 24 + 3.0
Agility - 12 + 1.3
Intelligence - 10 + 2.0

This build focuses on strength and on intellect, though your characters main purposeful flaw is mana management, It's still not a bad idea.

The builds that follow pratically are the same... just more stats.

6.4 Point Builds

Strength - 24 + 3.2
Agility - 12 +2.0
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.

Strength - 26 + 3.6
Agility - 10 +1.6
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.

Strength - 24 + 3.0
Agility - 12 + 1.4
Intelligence - 10 + 2.0

This build focuses on strength and on intellect, though your characters main purposeful flaw is mana management, It's still not a bad idea.

6.5 Point Builds

Strength - 24 + 3.3

Agility - 12 +2.0

Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.

Strength - 26 + 3.7
Agility - 10 +1.6
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.

Strength - 24 + 3.1

Agility - 12 + 1.4

Intelligence - 10 + 2.0

6.6 Point Builds

Strength - 24 + 3.4
Agility - 12 +2.0
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.

Strength - 26 + 3.8
Agility - 10 +1.6
Intelligence - 10 + 1.2

This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.

Strength - 24 + 3.1
Agility - 12 + 1.4
Intelligence - 10 + 2.1

@Rathman55
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a hybrid of tank/support. Abbadon, Dirge and maybe even Omniknight and DS can all be considered prime examples of BOTH tank and supporting heroes. I don't understand why you believe that having more than one role is bad; the best heroes are the versatile heroes - those that not limited to only one specific role.

His idea still needs some tweaking till it's an actual hybrid. I'm trying to say it's a supporter with tank stats. There is nothing wrong with hybrids in my opinion. Versatile heroes are good, but with all health and no intellect it wont be that versatile. At the end I even mention it's a good idea, just needs work. =) Didn't mean to portray my thoughts in the wrong light, sorry.

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

@NHP54
I just realized that having both attack speed bonuses and damage bonuses may be too similar too Huskar's Berserker's blood , even though it fits the theme of avenger really well. What kind of other ideas are you thinking of?

@Rathman55
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a hybrid of tank/support. Abbadon, Dirge and maybe even Omniknight and DS can all be considered prime examples of BOTH tank and supporting heroes. I don't understand why you believe that having more than one role is bad; the best heroes are the versatile heroes - those that not limited to only one specific role.

These are just sample ideas:

Defender - Ally heroes who fall to or below 40% HP within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem will gain increased movement speed, extra armor and HP regeneration.

Avenger - If an ally hero dies within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem, Goliath will receive a buff that grants increased movement, attack speed and damage for 30 seconds.

------------------------

Defender - Goliath empowers ally heroes within 1,200 AoE who fall to or below 40% HP. Ally heroes in danger gain movement, attack speed and armor.

Avenger - If an ally hero dies within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem, Goliath will emit its fury in the form of 450 AoE pulses, dealing physical damage at a rate of 1.5 seconds per pulse for 30 seconds.

Originally Posted by Rathman55

I think these are good. If there wrong somebody will probably correct me. It's something to look into. At least one of these. Then you can base all your other stats off them. I put them in a spoiler box because they take up a lot of room. The build numbers are colour coded

You can use any of these though.

Cyan=Good | Red= Pushing it ( Number Wise ex 6.65 NOT AGILITY )

All non leveling stats in these builds add to 46... A fairly consistent average.

6.3 Point Builds

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.


This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.


This build focuses on strength and on intellect, though your characters main purposeful flaw is mana management, It's still not a bad idea.

The builds that follow pratically are the same... just more stats.

6.4 Point Builds

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.


This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.


This build focuses on strength and on intellect, though your characters main purposeful flaw is mana management, It's still not a bad idea.

6.5 Point Builds

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.


This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.


6.6 Point Builds

This build keeps most of your strength, and all your old intellect. It kind of sacrifices agility. The only thing this hero really needs agility for is it's armor anyways.


This build pretty much maximizes your strength, with a sacrifice for your armor. The agility is low, but + 1.5 isn't that bad. This idea definitively supports tanking.

His idea still needs some tweaking till it's an actual hybrid. I'm trying to say it's a supporter with tank stats. There is nothing wrong with hybrids in my opinion. Versatile heroes are good, but with all health and no intellect it wont be that versatile. At the end I even mention it's a good idea, just needs work. =) Didn't mean to portray my thoughts in the wrong light, sorry.

Hmm, some of the stat ideas are truly interesting.

[Mystique-]

Originally Posted by Rathman55

His idea still needs some tweaking till it's an actual hybrid. I'm trying to say it's a supporter with tank stats. There is nothing wrong with hybrids in my opinion. Versatile heroes are good, but with all health and no intellect it wont be that versatile. At the end I even mention it's a good idea, just needs work. =) Didn't mean to portray my thoughts in the wrong light, sorry.

You should have emphasized those points more . But I suppose that Goliath's intelligence is abysmally low so his spells cannot be spammed; they have to be used effectively, prudently, and at correct times in order to maximize the power and not run out of mana. I can see some items such as: bottle, bloodstone, shivas[perfect item, provides significant boost of both armor and intel], scepter[if it upgrades ult ] as part of core mana-providing items. This, of course, doesn't include the primary tanking items.

Anyways, all that is delving into numerical-stat balance.


You are right, these are radical O_O

Originally Posted by NHP54

Defender - Ally heroes who fall to or below 40% HP within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem will gain increased movement speed, extra armor and HP regeneration.

Avenger - If an ally hero dies within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem, Goliath will receive a buff that grants increased movement, attack speed and damage for 30 seconds.

That's a lot of benefits just from a passive. I think the number of benefits should be capped at two. Especially since these benefits get a lot stronger once more allied heroes die.

Originally Posted by NHP54

Defender - Goliath empowers ally heroes within 1,200 AoE who fall to or below 40% HP. Ally heroes in danger gain movement, attack speed and armor.

Avenger - If an ally hero dies within 1,200 AoE of the Guardian Golem, Goliath will emit its fury in the form of 450 AoE pulses, dealing physical damage at a rate of 1.5 seconds per pulse for 30 seconds.

I'm kind of against this Avenger one, since its so complicated. Remember, this is just a passive; elaborate spells are not really needed. Anyways, there may be an overload of pulses in the event an entire allied team gets wiped. Also, it seems too strong as well.

Anyways, I think the current system of Bodyguard is better; its much more balanced.

[Rathman55]

Since I am actually relatively interested in this idea I thought I'd pitch in some ideas. I'm going to try to help you with Body Guard. You by no means have to use my idea. It just might help.


My first thought is your icon for Body Guard is off. Why do I think that? Because in World of Warcraft, (where the icon comes from), that's a mage spell "Arcane Intellect". It's not a big deal. But maybe something like... (Hard to find one that matches the colors... lol) I think I found a good one.


I think for Body Guard take out the Avengers Aura. It's confusing and complicated and keep it to one aura that stacks per character enabling it. If that's hard to understand I'll elaborate. First buff defenders aura a bit, maybe add health regeneration. Then it's easier to understand. I think all of us currently posting understand it. To make sure I understand and maybe help someone that doesn't. It works like this right? If someone around you is under 40% health it activates? So lets say Player X is in range and activates it, then Player Y comes in and activates it too, then there are two auras which are stacking? If that's the case it's actually an all right skill. Definitiveness unique to a passive.

[NHP54]

@Leak-

For now, it is just brainstorming. I am perfectly content with keeping the passive the way it is.

Originally Posted by Rathman55

Since I am actually relatively interested in this idea I thought I'd pitch in some ideas. I'm going to try to help you with Body Guard. You by no means have to use my idea. It just might help.


My first thought is your icon for Body Guard is off. Why do I think that? Because in World of Warcraft, (where the icon comes from), that's a mage spell "Arcane Intellect". It's not a big deal. But maybe something like... (Hard to find one that matches the colors... lol) I think I found a good one.


I think for Body Guard take out the Avengers Aura. It's confusing and complicated and keep it to one aura that stacks per character enabling it. If that's hard to understand I'll elaborate. First buff defenders aura a bit, maybe add health regeneration. Then it's easier to understand. I think all of us currently posting understand it. To make sure I understand and maybe help someone that doesn't. It works like this right? If someone around you is under 40% health it activates? So lets say Player X is in range and activates it, then Player Y comes in and activates it too, then there are two auras which are stacking? If that's the case it's actually an all right skill. Definitiveness unique to a passive.

I picked the current icon for Bodyguard because I was just looking for filler icons that fit with the blue-color scheme. You should ignore the original Warcraft III skill icons from what they were taken from, otherwise we would be here all day pointing things out like Omniknight's Degen Aura's icon is Spirit Link or how Bloodseeker's Rupture is the Blood Mage's Phoenix ultimate. and so forth. Besides, if you use your imagination, you could think about the icon as keeping an eye on things.

And honestly, I don't think the two different buffs make things confusing. The concept is very simple. I just wanted to create two different buff types so players can distinguish them better.

[Mystique-]

Originally Posted by Rathman55

I think for Body Guard take out the Avengers Aura. It's confusing and complicated and keep it to one aura that stacks per character enabling it. If that's hard to understand I'll elaborate. First buff defenders aura a bit, maybe add health regeneration. Then it's easier to understand. I think all of us currently posting understand it. To make sure I understand and maybe help someone that doesn't. It works like this right? If someone around you is under 40% health it activates? So lets say Player X is in range and activates it, then Player Y comes in and activates it too, then there are two auras which are stacking? If that's the case it's actually an all right skill. Definitiveness unique to a passive.

Note to you: Bodyguard is NOT an aura; it's a passive-buff that affects only Goliath.

[Rathman55]

Originally Posted by Leak-

Note to you: Bodyguard is NOT an aura; it's a passive-buff that affects only Goliath.

Oh, makes much more sense. My bad. I misunderstood.