[Hero] Invoker ,simple and important suggestion

[Kasad]

==Story intro *you can pass this and go straight to suggestion*==

Hey guys,
So here it is:I've been making some posts on d-a forums some months before because I had the strong feeling (and hectic ingame activity) that Invoker is not as strong as he should be.So he got some nice buffs in 6.60 (aghanims+2 sec cd on alacrity).After some lol 1 and a half years of playing intensively Invoker I've figured out that the only way to make him powerful is by leveling only one instance at the max potential (that also made me discover that in level 6 you keep skill point to level both exort and Invoke at level 7) and then doing the same for the "combo" instance that you initially leveled only few times.
So in a single player game I've decided to test the Quas build and see if it is better Quas or Wex full..So I levelled Quas and take a ring of regen to have "imba" hp/sec...Then in my suprise I realised that quas is indeed equal with a ring of regen,while Exort is equal with a blades of attack!

===the problem===

The problem is (if we agree that everything else is balanced) that Quas and Wex are both underleveled passives compared to Exort.Take a look at these maths:

-Level 7 all instances Quas equal to 15.75 hp/sec That is 3 ring of health==2650 gold
-Level 7 all instances Wex equal to 42% IAS and 21% IMS.Wex==3 gloves of haste and a boots of speed~=2000 gold (wex is seriously weak,I mean,not even a hyperstone and a boots of speed ms doesn't stack
-Level 7 Exort is 1 sacred relic, that is pure 3800 gold

===solution===

as you can see,current passives except Exort are not viable,because Exort is around as much powerful as Quas and Wex combined!
So if we want to balance Quas/Wex to be equal to Exort ,that would be:
a]3800 gold-2650=1150==1 RoH+1 RoR==+6hps/sec==1hp/sec per instance per level of Quas{IMPLEMENTED}
b]3800-2000==1800==900x2==+1.5 gloves of haste+ ~2 boots of speed (stacking)==+22.5% IAS +-15% IMS==3% IAS per instance per level,+-2% IMS per instance per level of Wex OR 2.5% IAS +1% applying to MS items too IMS


The best buff I found out for wex is this :
%1 per instance per level with/without the IAS on wex (or some other kind of power) and 280->300 default ms of Invoker

reasson:

280->300 ms
3% bonus=309ms (already faster than most heroes)
6% =318 ms
9% bonus=327 ( faster ms from the majority of heroes)
12% =336 ms(a previous Invoker with boots)

As you can see,there is already a much better ms increase with the default MS buffed.

Now with a boots of speed that goes like

350 ms
3% bonus =360,5
6% =371
9% =381
12% =392

It is like I buffed the Wex 1-2 levels,but now it has a much better leveling,it is easier to balance and I highly support this idea

I really want to hear your opinions about this.I admit I made some mistakes in my opinions about Invoker's spells in the past,but I am 100% positive these umbalanced passives have been unnoticed from everyone and "your worst enemy is the one you can't see" .So please support this idea and give that nice buff to Invoker,because every other mage got his big change

Added January 15th:
I am now looking forward for the time Wex gets buffed as well in a more helpful instance.Please give your feedback


Changelog:
-No poll for now
-Fixed the Wex calculation which doesn't apply on MS items (such as boots of speed). lol
-added colours and increased IAS of Wex a little
-Added a new,improved idea for Wex (which might be the best of all)
-Dropping a tear of happiness for Quas
-Edited the OP

[Noobish-Noob]

Quas and Wex really needs some numbers buff... current numbers are way too weak IMO... Yes for balance buff

[Drikam]

Quas isn't so bad.

'Costs' 2650 gold but it uses 3 inventory slots.

[Kasad]

Originally Posted by Drikam

Quas isn't so bad.

'Costs' 2650 gold but it uses 3 inventory slots.

Edit:You don't want it to be translated in other hp/sec item....
...Let's say you have 1575 life Invoker with Heart of Tarrasque giving him only the 1% hp (not strength and not life bonuses).So from an actual 6k gold item you get only 2k gold...So Quas should be +-4 hp more than I suggest O_O XD

[Blut]

your logic seems correct so t-up

[Motas]

This is great, many paople don't realize how the invoker should be played. You are one of few that understand the power behind the invokes. How about we leave Quas the same and up Wex a slight bit ehh? If not, its ok, invoker is still one of my favorite heroes.

[JJE92]

This suggestion makes sense obviously, I like it, i cant see that your logic would be flawed, so TUp for sure.

[Kasad]

thanks for the support guys.Hope Icefrog agrees with it as well :X

Edit: where did my poll go o.O

edti#2: Oh,nice polls are removed ,I likes ^_^

[LinoGwada]

Yes, he definitely need some buff to his Quas and Wex.

How about giving HP and little more regen with Quas? Something like:

Quas give 25 bonus HP per lvl per instance and a 0.8 HP/sec

lvl 1 Quas x3 -> 25x3 = 75 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 = 2.4 HP/sec
lvl 2 Quas x3 -> 25x3x2 = 150 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x2 = 4.8 HP/sec
lvl 3 Quas x3 -> 25x3x3 = 225 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x3 = 7.2 HP/sec
lvl 4 Quas x3 -> 25x3x4 = 300 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x4 = 9.6 HP/sec
lvl 5 Quas x3 -> 25x3x5 = 375 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x5 = 12 HP/sec
lvl 6 Quas x3 -> 25x3x6 = 450 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x6 = 14.4 HP/sec
lvl 7 Quas x3 -> 25x3x7 = 525 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x7 = 16.8 HP/sec

[Kasad]

Originally Posted by LinoGwada

Yes, he definitely need some buff to his Quas and Wex.

How about giving HP and little more regen with Quas? Something like:

Quas give 25 bonus HP per lvl per instance and a 0.8 HP/sec

lvl 1 Quas x3 -> 25x3 = 75 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 = 2.4 HP/sec
lvl 2 Quas x3 -> 25x3x2 = 150 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x2 = 4.8 HP/sec
lvl 3 Quas x3 -> 25x3x3 = 225 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x3 = 7.2 HP/sec
lvl 4 Quas x3 -> 25x3x4 = 300 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x4 = 9.6 HP/sec
lvl 5 Quas x3 -> 25x3x5 = 375 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x5 = 12 HP/sec
lvl 6 Quas x3 -> 25x3x6 = 450 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x6 = 14.4 HP/sec
lvl 7 Quas x3 -> 25x3x7 = 525 bonus HP and 0.8 x3 x7 = 16.8 HP/sec

My suggestion clearly states that he needs that "small" balance fix.If you want to suggest something else,please make a post and I will answer there properly ^_^

p.s. You won't persuade Icefrog by reworking Invoker,because he made really hard work balancing him through...

[LinoGwada]

Hi again,

I though of something good for his Wex. How about we reduce Invoker base

attack range from 600 to 400 and give him bonus range with each instance and some more AS?

What I mean:

Wex give 12 bonus range, 2.5% AS and 1% MS per instance per lvl (didn't change the MS because it's already good)

lvl 1 Wex x3 -> 36 bonus range, 7.5% AS and 3% MS
lvl 2 Wex x3 -> 72 bonus range, 15% AS and 6% MS
lvl 3 Wex x3 -> 108 bonus range, 22.5% AS and 9% MS
lvl 4 Wex x3 -> 144 bonus range, 30% AS and 12% MS
lvl 5 Wex x3 -> 180 bonus range, 37.5% AS and 15% MS
lvl 6 Wex x3 -> 216 bonus range, 45% AS and 18% MS
lvl 7 Wex x3 -> 252 bonus range, 52.5% AS and 21% MS

[Orkimond]

the logic here is fucking terrible...
the hp is soooo regen is soooo good early and these arent meant to be balanced on numbers, they make skill additions as well and almost always wex is the best for skills, anyway 21% ms is not to be scoffed at, theres a reason u can only have 1 BoS

[naiad]

u cannot balance it by simply converting it into price of item(s).

e.g.

1. 1 blade of alacrity=1000 gold; +10 agi
2. 1 ogre axe=1000 gold; +10 str
3. 1 staff of wizardy=1000 gold; +10 int
4. 1 ultimate orb = 2100 gold; +10 all attributes

means, 1 blade of alacrity + 1 ogre axe + 1 staff of wizardy = 1 ultimate orb?

though i agree that invoker needs buff, but perhaps not that few of buffs. he needs more to be a good hero.

[Orkimond]

exactly right, i dont think he needs a buff though, just some tweaking, to make him more rounded

[Kasad]

First of all,I didn't compare items with items,I compared skills with items and vice versa.As far as Invoker's passives are concerned,I personally CAN'T find any better way to compare them and meassure their power.I try as much as possible to make 1 item per skill,although that can't always happen,because Wex is splitting its potential to AS and MS.If you can give a better explanation,please feel free to share it,otherwise you just spam

Again,you are underestimating the power of +3hp/sec in a glass cannon hero.
Only +0.25 per instance actually means +1 current instance per level!In level 5 Invoker with level 3 Quas you actually have 9 hp/sec!How can't you see the magnificence and the new potentials openning,the new mind games that you can do switching defensive and aggresive potition in your lane,just because you regenerate too much.How can't it be helpful in teambattles when you can actually tank with items and play the role of the "annoying regenerating spamming mage". How can't you see that Wex is totally underpowered,hell,how can you even believe that 21% IMS in a 285 base MS hero is OK??

P.S. If after so many posts to d-a from many members stating Invoker is weak and the only buff he receives is +2 sec duration to alacrity and a normal Aghanims upgrade,I think we should re-form our logic behind Invoker's power and present it in such a way that Icefrog will understand its weakness and deffinetly buff him directly!

EDIT:I also stated that "if we agree that everything else is balanced" ...

[FireMaster]

I liked the suggestion of LinoGwada for Quas, it makes the invoker less vulnerable.
And about Wex, I think the solution is: add +10 base movespeed (285+10=295), so 21% will do a little more (+2 MS xD)

[Kasad]

@FireMaster&LinoGwada:
I can't suggest something that reworks Invoker's passives,I only made this post so you can understand how weak are Quas and Wex and so they are buffed not reworked,so please if you like these so much,go ahead and make a post!!That way we have more possibilities that Icefrog buffs even more Invoker :P


P.S. I too would like a better range for Invoker,but that would make him imba,because he is not meant to be sniper,but rather a regenerator,a mind gamer,a pusher

[Unfawkable]

Invoker doesn't this kind of buff, quas is insanely useful early game, you basically have a free RoH by level 3, no hero can do that. Your logic is off, the prices show nothing. Wex is more for MS than AS, and 21% MS is a lot, and your logic of comparing boots with 21% MS is also off.

The only buff I think Invoker needs would be to remove the reagents casting time, so they don't stop you in place when you cast them, and an attribute when you level them. For instance, 1 STR for leveling quas, 1 AGY for leveling wex and 1 INT for leveling exort.

[Kasad]

Um,I still don't get it how a ring of regeneration skill upgrade is equal with a blades of attack skill upgrade.Especially on a hero that needs anything but a ring of health in level 5 with 600 hp with life items..
Also I've made something wrong:
Invoker's ms without level 7 Wex==280
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex ==339....+59 ms
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex and boots of speed == 399...+0 ms
oh well I made a miscalculation there,It seems Wex does gives you a boots of speed,but instead it doesn't apply on boots of speed XD,while everyone else' pasives with %MS bonus are stacking with boots...

[Unfawkable]

Didn't know that..... that sux :P
Quas is survivability, how can you say a 600 HP hero doesn't need 5HP/sec? You get nuked, go to base plox, WTF O_o ofc you need regen