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Old 04-16-2012, 01:07 PM   #1
sunnymarcell
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Default Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?


why do i see anti-mages going heart instead of bkb, especially when they have a 30 min guinsoo akasha, and a 40 min guinsoo tinker against them?

of course im losing with them. even if i try to convince them bkb is better than heart in this situation, they will say "hurr-durr pros go heart, cuz AM is tank"

what the fuck is wrong with people nowadays?
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
why do i see anti-mages going heart instead of bkb, especially when they have a 30 min guinsoo akasha, and a 40 min guinsoo tinker against them?

of course im losing with them. even if i try to convince them bkb is better than heart in this situation, they will say "hurr-durr pros go heart, cuz AM is tank"

what the fuck is wrong with people nowadays?
Nothing wrong for AM going Heart. But ofc, having a Guinsoo on other team can make BKB is better choice.

But still, everything is situational. Manta + Heart can be better counter to Guinsoo actually.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by NoThlnG View Post
Nothing wrong for AM going Heart. But ofc, having a Guinsoo on other team can make BKB is better choice.

But still, everything is situational. Manta + Heart can be better counter to Guinsoo actually.
i highly doubt with 2 sheepsticks on their team that you will ever leave the chicken form except when you die, specially being AM
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Because they are bad. I once saw an AM going Heart instead of BKB against and OD with Guinsoo. He said he could 'out-tank' the pure damage.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

I would probably credit this to streams. People look at tournies or "high level" play for the "best" builds. People want static builds that work for all situations. Many don't realize how situational items are in this game, especially if they're from LoL. If facing a heavy pushing line up, PotM's will always go treads/manta/mkb instead of a maelstrom. Riki's will always rush diffusal even if half the enemy team can kill him in his smoke anyways. Free thinking leaves when high level play is easy to observe and mimic. Just wait until people start flaming about hero picks other than sniper.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Because Heart + Spell Shield = Ultimate Tank
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Because in most games, Heart IS the better option since with mana shield and your mobility + manta, you generally dont die.

There are those situations where BKB is obviously better, and my answer to that is that they are just used to such items.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

cuz pros go heart,
they pro they heart
why u try to teach pros how to play?
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by Darkmeplez View Post
Because Heart + Cuirass + Spell Shield + Vanhood = Ultimate Tank
Fixed.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by fireblaze762 View Post
Because in most games, Heart IS the better option since with mana shield and your mobility + manta, you generally dont die.

There are those situations where BKB is obviously better, and my answer to that is that they are just used to such items.
This.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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I would probably credit this to streams. People look at tournies or "high level" play for the "best" builds. People want static builds that work for all situations. Many don't realize how situational items are in this game, especially if they're from LoL. If facing a heavy pushing line up, PotM's will always go treads/manta/mkb instead of a maelstrom. Riki's will always rush diffusal even if half the enemy team can kill him in his smoke anyways. Free thinking leaves when high level play is easy to observe and mimic. Just wait until people start flaming about hero picks other than sniper.
I'd say a lot of this is correct. For example, if you're in a pub and you play a support like you see in high level streams, you're going to lose unless you have competent teammates. They can get away with buying so few items because they know who their teammates are and they know they can rely on them, so boots, 2 bracers, and nothing but support consumables can work out.

As someone who got started in this genre with LoL (shamelessly, but I don't touch that game anymore), I can definitely vouch for LoL causing a lot of the static mentality. The meta is so stagnant in that game, and Riot keeps pushing the game further and further into the direction of the crappy meta. It's turned into a stay in your lane, never leave farm fest (mostly due to how bad the map design is and the lack of a consumable like TP scrolls). Playing an AD carry bottom? You're getting berserker greaves, infinity edge, blood thirster, last whisper, phantom dancer, QSS 90% of the time because items that truly counter opponents were removed from the game long ago or never existed and that combination is just mathematically one of the best. It was actually a hard transition at first when I came to DotA, but when I finally started understanding the game, I quit looking at guides and learned how to think for myself.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

It depends upon the situation.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by Semi-Formal View Post
I would probably credit this to streams. People look at tournies or "high level" play for the "best" builds. People want static builds that work for all situations. Many don't realize how situational items are in this game, especially if they're from LoL. If facing a heavy pushing line up, PotM's will always go treads/manta/mkb instead of a maelstrom. Riki's will always rush diffusal even if half the enemy team can kill him in his smoke anyways. Free thinking leaves when high level play is easy to observe and mimic. Just wait until people start flaming about hero picks other than sniper.
actually diffusal is core on riki no matter what.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

^ I intend to buy Basher + Madness just for fun. x)
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by fireblaze762 View Post
Because in most games, Heart IS the better option since with mana shield and your mobility + manta, you generally dont die.

There are those situations where BKB is obviously better, and my answer to that is that they are just used to such items.
it looks good on paper, but not in the game.

even if we consider the thing that AM is unkillable (which is wrong), what can he do under 10 seconds of disable in a teamfight? NOTHING. you give all the farm that exists on the whole map, and he does absolutely nothing in teamfights

what do you think why AM isnt picked anymore in competitive games? cause pro players cant play anti-mage. he is still an overpowered hero, but there are only a few players who can play him
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
it looks good on paper, but not in the game.

even if we consider the thing that AM is unkillable (which is wrong), what can he do under 10 seconds of disable in a teamfight? NOTHING. you give all the farm that exists on the whole map, and he does absolutely nothing in teamfights

what do you think why AM isnt picked anymore in competitive games? cause pro players cant play anti-mage. he is still an overpowered hero, but there are only a few players who can play him
I agree with this. Just giving him farm wont ensure winning if the enemy are half-decent. Fluid builds are key, knowing when that vguard/BKB are necessary is essential.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
it looks good on paper, but not in the game.

even if we consider the thing that AM is unkillable (which is wrong), what can he do under 10 seconds of disable in a teamfight? NOTHING. you give all the farm that exists on the whole map, and he does absolutely nothing in teamfights

what do you think why AM isnt picked anymore in competitive games? cause pro players cant play anti-mage. he is still an overpowered hero, but there are only a few players who can play him
Wait so the pros play 1v5 now?If the enemy team is good enough to chain disable your AM without letting you do anything then they are just better,where is YOUR team when that happens?Truth is,if you have a heart then you have a higher chance of surviving till your team arrives for support,if u get caught with a bkb offguard with a hex and chain stunned then you will die much faster than if you had a heart.It all comes down to positioning and teamplay,as always,especially when it comes to late game.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by MeSoloTopPlz View Post
Wait so the pros play 1v5 now?If the enemy team is good enough to chain disable your AM without letting you do anything then they are just better,where is YOUR team when that happens?Truth is,if you have a heart then you have a higher chance of surviving till your team arrives for support,if u get caught with a bkb offguard with a hex and chain stunned then you will die much faster than if you had a heart.It all comes down to positioning and teamplay,as always,especially when it comes to late game.
in teamfights, bkb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart

what AM is, if not a fucking teamfight carry?

also name 5 things what can stop a team chain-hexing an AM in teamfights
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
in teamfights, bkb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart

what AM is, if not a fucking teamfight carry?

also name 5 things what can stop a team chain-hexing an AM in teamfights
I never said it was bad,you can use it to power your way through teamfights and they will just run and die,but right now the trend is so very overly push oriented so teams usually go with heart,personally i'd get vanguard bkb to ensure winning a fight,but if we just barely manage to win,then pushing is out of the question if im low on hp,AND lately many players just save up for buybacks,so my bkb will be useless in another fight,both items have their ups and downs,as i said it all comes down to positioning and initiation late game,mistakes cost you much more.

Nothing more to say really about this topic,both items are good,its just heart is more popular these days.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Oh and those five things.....BKB,a competent team initiation on the hex holder,MANTA,amongst other things.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Just want to point out that if the enemy QOP had a hex, all she has to do is blink in and hex you. Have fun trying to use your BKB as a chicken, while I laugh at you with my additional 1k health from heart.

There's nothing wrong with going Heart on AM. In most cases it's better than BKB. AM wins fights often because the entire enemy team focuses him, but he ends up blinking out with 100 health while the rest of his team comes in to clean up. Then he just waits 10 seconds and jumps back into the fight with 1/2 to 3/4 health. BKB, on the other hand, assumes that you're the one initiating and not the other way round. The duration also gets pretty short late game (5 seconds is barely enough).
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by JX_Blue View Post
Just want to point out that if the enemy QOP had a hex, all she has to do is blink in and hex you. Have fun trying to use your BKB as a chicken, while I laugh at you with my additional 1k health from heart.

There's nothing wrong with going Heart on AM. In most cases it's better than BKB. AM wins fights often because the entire enemy team focuses him, but he ends up blinking out with 100 health while the rest of his team comes in to clean up. Then he just waits 10 seconds and jumps back into the fight with 1/2 to 3/4 health. BKB, on the other hand, assumes that you're the one initiating and not the other way round. The duration also gets pretty short late game (5 seconds is barely enough).
have fun with your 0 armor and 0 usefulness as a chicken with 1k extra HP.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Manta is so bloody OP on him, any survival item after that would do.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

People who say that Heart is better, well it's obviously not when the loss was the result. But lots of players have problem to eveluate critical situations and they tend to do stupid things.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Well if enemy team has mass disables, go for BKB then Heart maybe?
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:29 PM   #26
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Because 90% of pub players are idiots.

I always make BKB when need it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

AM has a pretty static build in a lot of ways (treads/manta every game), but I actually think it makes or breaks the hero how you build him situationally. Vanguard can be quite necessary, as can BKB. It depends on the disables your enemies have, how powerful their right clicks are etc.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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People who say that Heart is better, well it's obviously not when the loss was the result. But lots of players have problem to eveluate critical situations and they tend to do stupid things.
it SURELY FUCKING was.

we would absolutely own teamfights with our enigma (he landed decent 3-4 man blackholes), but 3 out of 4 seconds our anti-mage was hexed. if he would have that bkb, 0 out of 4 seconds would been his disabled time (they didnt have a beastmaster, neither axe), and he would kill at least 2 during the black hole, and the other 2 following after.

but when our enigma landed that blackhole, we just didnt had enough damage to kill those 1500-2000 hp heroes, since we had like 0 farm, cause AM took it all.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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have fun with your 0 armor and 0 usefulness as a chicken with 1k extra HP.
ITT: A pretty active member still thinking that Hex lowers your armor
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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ITT: A pretty active member still thinking that Hex lowers your armor
When I use Sheepstick it does.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:21 PM   #31
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by Darkmeplez View Post
Because Heart + Spell Shield = Ultimate Tank
This,

and I'd say Bkb should be situational, if the enemy has 2 guinsoo then maybe it would be better than heart.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

I want that Hex too T_T

But relevant to this topic, sicne people are asking How to prevent chain disables on your carry without a BKB:

- Do a good initiation. If you are doing it right you might completely screw one of the disable using people. Seriously.
- Wait till one ally soaked up an important disable. Obviously doesn't work that well in pubs. Often played games where people either were to bad OR to much of a pussy to start a fight with their Sven and stuff. This sucks if you are some kind of squishy carry (or in my most recent case having fun as a carry Lina)
- Have a team that knows that they should disrupt/disable those who haven't fired of their disables. How often do I see Lions getting stunnned after firing of their shit while a nearby Lina still got her goddamn follow up stun.

On Antimage I feel that BKB is merely situational. In some cases you will need it (e.g. pure damage), but you shouldn't always be getting it.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:37 PM   #33
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

Generally HoT is better than BKB for Anti-Mage but of course there are times (e.g. as everyone already stated whenever it's Gunisoos in the opponent team) you should consider getting BKB first.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
in teamfights, bkb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heart

what AM is, if not a fucking teamfight carry?

also name 5 things what can stop a team chain-hexing an AM in teamfights
Well, there's always pushing other lanes alone? Because let's see the enemy team try to send one person to stop him? And if they send out 2 now your team is holding advantage 4 v 3 and even then, if you have a Heart the 2 people will have a hard time killing you? (even if they force you to retreat, the heart regen means you'll be back in less than a minute, actively pressuring them)

You call others noob for following pros' build blindly, yet you also think in that same narrow-minded pattern that it's all about the kills and winning team fights.
You also probably will cry BACKDOOR and rage when a Clinkz spend 10 full seconds and kill your tower through backdoor protection, and neither you nor any of your teammate bother to pack a TP to stun him once and ruined his plan (without Strafe Clinkz will have a hard time out damaging the regen).

Yes if you're focusing on teamfight and teamfight only (and that you get to activate it, before, say, a Lion blink in and sheep you), BKB is better, but Heart offers that massive HP pool for the enemy to burn through, and if they fail to do it, the regen will let you be back in the fight a lot faster than if you had to go to fountain because BKB doesn't offer any regen.
Or better yet, have your initiator starts the fight, stunning the people with instant disables so AM can hop in and wreak havoc, instead of having AM jumps in first and get chain disabled to death.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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Well, there's always pushing other lanes alone? Because let's see the enemy team try to send one person to stop him? And if they send out 2 now your team is holding advantage 4 v 3 and even then, if you have a Heart the 2 people will have a hard time killing you? (even if they force you to retreat, the heart regen means you'll be back in less than a minute, actively pressuring them)

You call others noob for following pros' build blindly, yet you also think in that same narrow-minded pattern that it's all about the kills and winning team fights.
You also probably will cry BACKDOOR and rage when a Clinkz spend 10 full seconds and kill your tower through backdoor protection, and neither you nor any of your teammate bother to pack a TP to stun him once and ruined his plan (without Strafe Clinkz will have a hard time out damaging the regen).

Yes if you're focusing on teamfight and teamfight only (and that you get to activate it, before, say, a Lion blink in and sheep you), BKB is better, but Heart offers that massive HP pool for the enemy to burn through, and if they fail to do it, the regen will let you be back in the fight a lot faster than if you had to go to fountain because BKB doesn't offer any regen.
Or better yet, have your initiator starts the fight, stunning the people with instant disables so AM can hop in and wreak havoc, instead of having AM jumps in first and get chain disabled to death.
dont you get it?

they dont have to kill AM. this is the point of chain-disable. if you chain-disable him, you can his teammates easily. and an alone AM is an useless AM.

also if AM's team gets a perfect initiation so AM cant be chain-disabled, then he doesnt even need heart
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

bkb is probably better for pushing and escaping if they dont have anything that goes through it, bkb is cheaper too, and gives you damage. and lets not forget you can get vlads if you want regen
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:42 PM   #37
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

It's situational.

Heart is good for dealing with anti-BKB ultimates (Roar, Grip, Chrono, etc).

BKB is good for otherwise.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:30 AM   #38
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Default Re: Anti-mage bkb went out of "trend"?

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It's situational.

Heart is good for dealing with anti-BKB ultimates (Roar, Grip, Chrono, etc).

BKB is good for otherwise.
okay, when the enemy has a long bkb-piercing disable (and always lands it on anti-mage), then of course heart is better

but i see many cases where AM is going for heart even when he has 2-3 burst damagers and disablers against him.
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