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Old 04-02-2012, 05:24 PM   #1
ThnderSquirrel
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Default How do the pros play Alch?


Never really understood alch, but I was wondering how the pros play him.

What skill build?
What item build?
What do you do early/mid/late?
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:28 PM   #2
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Last time I played him, I went Boots Vanguard Radiance.

Haven't played him for a while though.

I have yet to figure a PK solo mid gank playstyle for Alche. Usually I just play as a late game carry, and own when I have Radiance.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
I have yet to figure a PK solo mid gank playstyle for Alche. Usually I just play as a late game carry, and own when I have Radiance.
GG + Stun is a nice combination that works out realy good if you are laning against a complete retard. You dont need to give up on your late game and you get an impresive stun.

Acid+Stun seems to me the only way you can go ganking style if you got a decent oponent in the mid lane. Acid is the only thing that provides alchemist with some sort of lane control.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:47 PM   #4
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I usually grab one level of greed and max stun then acid.
This is flexible, depending on your lane and allies you may opt for a farming based build, with acid and greed or some other combination.
You want some kind of mana regen, basi is good as it helps your shitty armour. Soul ring/bottle/urn are acceptable, with urn and bottle being quite awesome if you're gonna gank.
Otherwise all i can say it do NOT die. You want to pick up momentum, get level 6 quickly then you can take control of your farm as you get tanky and have that hp/mana regen to stay in lane and use your skills.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
You want some kind of mana regen, basi is good as it helps your shitty armour. Soul ring/bottle/urn are acceptable, with urn and bottle being quite awesome if you're gonna gank.
Soul ring and ROB are shit on alchemist. SR is just overkill in terms of mana regeneration and ROB provides some armor while at the same time reducing your huge mana regeneration (from sobi).
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:53 PM   #6
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Farm 40 minutes and then proceed to faceroll everyone
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
GG + Stun is a nice combination that works out realy good if you are laning against a complete retard. You dont need to give up on your late game and you get an impresive stun.

Acid+Stun seems to me the only way you can go ganking style if you got a decent oponent in the mid lane. Acid is the only thing that provides alchemist with some sort of lane control.
Yea. I know. Acid is what helps me control my lane. And I definitely need the Stun. But then I like GG too much :\

And yep. Sobi is good. RoB isn't. Usually I go Sobi + Chainmail though.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:10 PM   #8
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Yea. I know. Acid is what helps me control my lane. And I definitely need the Stun. But then I like GG too much :\
GG early on isnt game breaking. A 4s stun that deals 340 on the other hand is.

Is that 4s stun ealy on worth those early 600 gold?

I belive most of the time it doesnt, but you need to make that desition.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
Soul ring and ROB are shit on alchemist. SR is just overkill in terms of mana regeneration and ROB provides some armor while at the same time reducing your huge mana regeneration (from sobi).
Fair enough on soul ring, i never make it myself but often see alch players take it.
RoB however is definitely not shit on alchemist, with a normal play style you won't need tons of mana, just enough to use your skills in any gank before you hit 6, at that point your ulti's regen will be sufficient. Armor is essential for alch, his hp pool is fine but he still feels quite squishy due to ~1 armor.
It also gives 6 damage which is decent for your last hitting.
Of course if your ally can take it then no reason for you to, but if you're in a pub its not gonna happen.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
RoB however is definitely not shit on alchemist, with a normal play style you won't need tons of mana, just enough to use your skills in any gank before you hit 6, at that point your ulti's regen will be sufficient. Armor is essential for alch, his hp pool is fine but he still feels quite squishy due to ~1 armor.
It also gives 6 damage which is decent for your last hitting.
Of course if your ally can take it then no reason for you to, but if you're in a pub its not gonna happen.
A naked sobi mask provides you with enough mana to spam acid every single wave. Forever.

A ROB does not provide nowhere near the amount of mana regeneration to do that. You are basicaly giving up tons of mana regeneration for some armor aura that you might get from someone else. ROB on alchemist is just a pice of overpriced armor.

Just to throw some numbers, Sobi mask provides alchemist with arround 1,75 extra mana/second. ROB provides alchemist with extra 0,65 mana/second. Why would i get ROB?
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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They don't. /thread

Pushing lineup? Max Acid Spray first with one in Golbin Gr€€d, one in Unstable Concoction.

Wannabe the ganker? Max Unsta first then Spray then Gr€€d.

Wannabe the afk farmer? Max Gr€€d, one in Unstable and then max Spray.

Items differ with what you play with or against. Be flexible.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazoku View Post
A naked sobi mask provides you with enough mana to spam acid every single wave. Forever.

A ROB does not provide nowhere near the amount of mana regeneration to do that. You are basicaly giving up tons of mana regeneration for some armor aura that you might get from someone else. ROB on alchemist is just a pice of overpriced armor.

Just to throw some numbers, Sobi mask provides alchemist with arround 1,75 extra mana/second. ROB provides alchemist with extra 0,65 mana/second. Why would i get ROB?
Not really..

Sobi ONLY works at level 6 +

Before that point basi is often more useful and also helps patch up alchs god damn awful armour.

I personally dont get basi anyway though.

Stout+Sobi is typically my early game core.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThnderSquirrel View Post
Never really understood alch, but I was wondering how the pros play him.

What skill build?
What item build?
What do you do early/mid/late?
You play him as a carry who shines somewhere between 25-35 minutes. While he can be a later carry (45+) the problem is he is very kiteable and once his ult runs out he dies very fast. The idea is to farm obscenely fast and come online even faster and then push, get a rax, pick up another phat item, push more, win

Skill Build
Greed 2, 8, 9, 10
Stun 1
Acid 3, 4, 5, 7
Ult 6, 11, 16


Depending on the difficulty of your lane, you can take more greed early over Acid. As acid+Sobi lets you spam acid forever, he is one hero who can tackle difficult duel/tri lanes without too much trouble. Indeed before the tri-lane era, he was a common pick against disgusting duel lanes, AA/Ck for example because he could spam acid and leech experience. You can opt to take more levels of his stun, but greed is what lets him come online so much faster than most other heroes, due to it's compounding effect he can net upwards of 35+ gold per creepwave by level 5 with the effects only getting larger into the 10+ minute of the game when creepwaves will have 15+ creeps. At that point each creep nets him an additional 26 gold which gets rather outrageous per each creep


Item Build
QB/Stout --> Sobi
Boots/Radiance

Mojin/Heart

Extensions... literally almost anything


Literally anything works. If you really want to come online fast, pick up Phase/Van/Armlet and you're hitting for 160+ with no real damaging effects from the degen and you're very tanky. But literally anything works, even Necro works on him since his stun has such a long duration. AC/Deso/MoC work well on him as they synergy with Acid, Mojin/Basher+Ult is a permabashed enemy, SnY/Halberd for the maim, literally anything works. Back in the day, he would pick up Van/Hood/Mek and be unkillable soaker of enemy damage. Just buy what items best suit you for that game
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: How do the pros play Alch?
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Quote:
Not really..

Sobi ONLY works at level 6 +

Before that point basi is often more useful and also helps patch up alchs god damn awful armour.
Actualy it works before too as it provides some mana regeneration. One clarity not only covers the gap and provide a "burst" regen, but also ends up giving even more mana.
You end up with spare gold that goes towards HP regen / QB wich facilitates your LH.

Only reason you get it is for the armor then, wich before level 6 might be equaly usefull to sobi build, but starting at 6 its completely inferior.
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Old 04-27-2012, 03:52 AM   #15
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My last game I went phase, force, armlet which is pretty cheap. Then I got AC, SnY, Vlads I think.

Build was max acid then max greed (with 1 UC at 2). I don't know how he's supposed to get farm without taking acid (for lane control), I think I made more money with acid than I would have by taking greed + stun.

I do need to play the hero more though, it seems like he can take almost any item/build.
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:00 AM   #16
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I don't see a reason why Alchemist should get Basilus. Forget the mana regen, but the damage and armour are good.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:33 AM   #17
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Passive farm acid spray is shit. Your team will have a 38% winning rate, because thats what alchemist pulls in dota 2 beta right now. If you want to win as alchemist, you have to use him as an aggressive stunner- in a tri lane, and/or roaming. Acid spray shouldn't even be maxed until level 9-10. You should be going:
1: Stun
2: Greed/Spray
3: Stun
4: Greed/Spray
5: Stun
6: Ult
7: Stun
8-10: Spray
11: Ult
12-15: Stats
16: Ult
17-22: Stats
23-25: Greed


There are two items you should have every game as alchemist: Soul Ring and Blink Dagger. They are both absolutely core. Anything beyond that is a luxury item for lategame carrying, but it isn't terribly important. If you win the ganking phase, you'll be up to your ears in gold and can carry with whatever combination of items you want. Its plausible to replace blink with lothars, but I find its not an ideal situation here.



Sorry guys, but straight carry builds on alchemist are god awful. Its why the hero only wins 38% of its games, and is in last place in the entire game, even behind drow. Because everyone tries it, and it fails every time. You can stack the ancients, you can do whatever, it won't matter, you'll fail the vast majority of the time, even if your team wins.

Alchemist has the single strongest normal stunning skill in the entire game right now. 775 casting range, 4 second duration, 340 damage. Its basically a level 3 primal roar that doesn't go through BKB, available at level 7. With a fraction of the cooldown.

So, why, the devil, is anyone still trying to max spray on him and put more than one point greed and afk farm until the game is over, considering he's an atrociously bad carry hero even once he *has* items? Come on, PotM is better at carrying games when she has items, and she's a semi-carry.
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:42 AM   #18
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good!
nice necro.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:17 AM   #19
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ZSMJ build -> max greed by 7 followed by acid and lastly stun. AFK farm 20-30 minutes, come out with;

Treads/BoT - Vang - Radiance - AC. -> Proceed to rape.

1.15 bat and buffed greed is fucking strong, just as 8 illusions PL but the way games are played now doesn't allow him to shine.

But in pubs you might wanna adjust your skill/item build accordingly, maxing greed by 7 is horrible if you're not getting absolute freefarm.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsrnn View Post
ZSMJ build -> max greed by 7 followed by acid and lastly stun. AFK farm 20-30 minutes, come out with;

Treads/BoT - Vang - Radiance - AC. -> Proceed to rape.

1.15 bat and buffed greed is fucking strong, just as 8 illusions PL but the way games are played now doesn't allow him to shine.

But in pubs you might wanna adjust your skill/item build accordingly, maxing greed by 7 is horrible if you're not getting absolute freefarm.
Its also the most assured way to lose a pub game.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:11 AM   #21
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How do the pros play Alch?

They don't
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by GodlyKha View Post
Its also the most assured way to lose a pub game.
Well OP asked how do the pros play him so I answered accordingly *with a disclaimer about pubs*.
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:25 AM   #23
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Pro is pro and you cant to do something
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Old 04-27-2012, 11:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pondrac View Post
How do the pros play Alch?

They don't
I've seen some games where they did and it went usually like phase/vg>radiance.
I remeber one game when the guy playing alch was killed like 3 times, but he got that radi and won the game. Anyway i think that mjollnir is great item for pubstomps on alch (ofc after radi) you just activate static and let the pubbies hit you (and they will cause they are pubbies)
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Old 04-27-2012, 01:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
ZSMJ build -> max greed by 7 followed by acid and lastly stun. AFK farm 20-30 minutes, come out with;

Treads/BoT - Vang - Radiance - AC. -> Proceed to rape.
If in pubs by 20-30 min mark:

Treads-HH-Radi-AC-Hot-Abyssal

I usualy end up replacing abysal with Mjolnir and though.
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Old 04-27-2012, 02:35 PM   #26
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Yesterday i see a alchemist whit phaseboot/vanguard/drums/blademail.
We lost but it had some success. He would have do better if he wasent forgetting to use blademail when focused.
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:17 PM   #27
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I build him as a pusher, with vlads, vanguard, and necro.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:36 PM   #28
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I usually max acid at 7, take one lvl of greed and rest in stun and my build would be phase boots vanguard mjolnir/ac hot etc or rushing radiance if game is going well.
Although I'm not sure should I go on mjolnir or ac...what do u think?
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:41 PM   #29
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Although I'm not sure should I go on mjolnir or ac...what do u think?
Both.
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:07 PM   #30
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hey Mazoku, what about MoC? Mew nu like RoB because mew want to spam spells with Alch. That one gives the same mana as Sobi but also great armor!
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:28 PM   #31
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Build up Maelstrom rapidly, follow up with chain or platmail depening on the amount of pincerpicks(-armour) by the enemy. Finish Mjollnir follow up with AC. Soul ring is decent if your team relies on your stun, but if thye don't need it that much a single sobi will suffice for mana regen imho. Also You could grab an early Radiance.... if you want.

Solo mid Alch GG + Stats
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:58 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThnderSquirrel View Post
Never really understood alch, but I was wondering how the pros play him.

What skill build?
What item build?
What do you do early/mid/late?
item build is upto you, coz with alche you can farm obscene amounts of gold very quickly if you max goblin greed, just get one level on spray( as a tower dive deterrent) and get one level on stun. Afk farm and before you know it you have enuff money for anything xD .
I prefer to rush AC after getting PT or Phase-VGuard.
Radiance is gr8, but if ur planning on getting radiance , you shud probly have it before 25 mins atleast.
Remember that alche's ulti gives him the lowest BAT in the dota world , that makes AS items imba on him .
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:11 AM   #33
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hey Mazoku, what about MoC? Mew nu like RoB because mew want to spam spells with Alch. That one gives the same mana as Sobi but also great armor!
I thought about MOC as well considering a sobi mask is a MUST on alchemist provided it gives so much mana. There are a couple of things to consider:

-Once you reach level 11 you no longer need the sobi mask as you wont be spaming on lane 24/7 that acid and your ult will provide a ton more mana regeneration. This means MoC takes one item slot and costs ~900 more gold than the sobi mask route (wich you sell).

-Before level 11 you most likely want to tank getting HP. My item build often goes for Ogre axe(For HH or BKB), Stout shield, PT STR before getting Maelstorm/Radiance wich means delaying my item build by 900 gold and giving up one slot isnt exactly something good if all i get is 6 armor and an active i might not end up using often.

-MOC cant disassembled. If you were able to get that chain mail back then i think MOC would be totaly worth it as you would be a step closer to your AC. But this way it just takes an item slot in your inventory, and by the time you might want to start using ofensively the active you already got some good gear on wich means you already want to get rid of it.

Overall i dont think MOC is a good idea on alchemist, this is unless you think your end game items can in no way be superior to HH+AC+Radi(no item slot problems).If you see the game and you see that the game is not going to last over 30 minutes (either you get owned by for example a pushing linup or you are owning) then MoC isnt that bad. If this is the case i would probably go MoC+Radi+Vanguard.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:01 AM   #34
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Today mew was doing really bad in lane unable to get any lasthits... So mew just went Treads, Vang, Malestrom (Took like 30 mins) and it was awesome O_O Mjollnir on Alchemist is the best thing ever, he attacks so fast nya!! Kills creepwaves in seconds! Mew loves Radiance but really considering going for this on any game I don't feel I'm getting perfect radiance farm. Went AC after the Mjollnir and Alchie was already near unkillable and had great DPS O_O So fun nya!
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
Today mew was doing really bad in lane unable to get any lasthits... So mew just went Treads, Vang, Malestrom (Took like 30 mins) and it was awesome O_O Mjollnir on Alchemist is the best thing ever, he attacks so fast nya!! Kills creepwaves in seconds! Mew loves Radiance but really considering going for this on any game I don't feel I'm getting perfect radiance farm. Went AC after the Mjollnir and Alchie was already near unkillable and had great DPS O_O So fun nya!
Thing about radiance is that it lets you farm so much faster than Maelstorm and it provides you with much more prescence mid game than a Mjolnir.

I made a TH about tring to replace Radi with an early Mjolnir but it didnt pay off. Radi is just that good on him for farming purpouses (leting you draw agrro in jungle like a boss) and during team fights it is the only viable option if there is no SD on the enemy team or you are not getting perma ganked.

Radi-->AC-->Mjolnir-->HH-->Abysal-->BOT-->Sell radi get HoT is probably the best way to go if you want some heavy DPS and roaling over the enemy team.

DPS wise Mjolnir is the best item out there, at some point you are going to get it for sure.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:09 AM   #36
ChibiNya
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Thing about radiance is that it lets you farm so much faster than Maelstorm and it provides you with much more prescence mid game than a Mjolnir.

I made a TH about tring to replace Radi with an early Mjolnir but it didnt pay off. Radi is just that good on him for farming purpouses (leting you draw agrro in jungle like a boss) and during team fights it is the only viable option if there is no SD on the enemy team or you are not getting perma ganked.

Radi-->AC-->Mjolnir-->HH-->Abysal-->BOT is probably the best way to go if you want some heavy DPS and roaling over the enemy team.

But would you get Radi if it's 30 minutes and you can't get 3800 nya? I go radiance on like.. Everything- it's my favorite item nya... But if the clock ever hits 30 and I have no relic then I scrap it nyan. If it really gets to that horrible scenario there's not much to do but go next step and go for AC + Mjollnir. At least it's a very safe thing to do- You can start every game aiming for radiance, but if you suddenly decide to give it up your build isn't broken- transition to the other items will go smooth nyan.

And yesh, Sobi Mask. Seeing as you'll spend 20 minutes with a mostly empty Inventory it really won't hurt your item slots nya. No need to upgrade it to anything most of the time as you said, though no upgrade is particularly bad nya. (Except Basi)
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:19 AM   #37
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But would you get Radi if it's 30 minutes and you can't get 3800 nya? I go radiance on like.. Everything- it's my favorite item nya... But if the clock ever hits 30 and I have no relic then I scrap it nyan. If it really gets to that horrible scenario there's not much to do but go next step and go for AC + Mjollnir. At least it's a very safe thing to do- You can start every game aiming for radiance, but if you suddenly decide to give it up your build isn't broken- transition to the other items will go smooth nyan.
If you are short on cash screw radiance go for maelstorm (something you should know by arround the 10 min mark).

With maelstorm you will farm slower than the avarage radiance route, but definitely faster than the slow radiance route.

Overall i tend to go for radi most of the time unless my but is getting kicked.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #38
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if u just want a mjollnir/rad for farm better go for a battle fury... good farm/push... no???
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:20 PM   #39
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Watch the Chinese, they know how to do it.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:22 PM   #40
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Wait why get a farm item (Radiance) on a hero that can already farm like a boss without it? Wouldn't that money be better spent on a Halberd or Satanic?
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