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Old 05-02-2012, 10:24 AM   #1
Sonic
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Default ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)


Maybe soon we will see ASU on Riki. But what he needs? What unique upgrade do u want to see on him? Maybe someone has good suggestions. I think that it won't be just a decreasement of delay time
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

He shouldn't get revealed on attacks
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

what's an ASU?
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

I don't think Aghanim's Scepter is an item for Rikimaru at all, ultimate upgrading aside.

The upgrade would have to be something extremely good to even consider it, because it is a very poor item choice stat-wise. Sure, the extra HP never hurts, but with the 4200 gold that Aghanim costs you might as well get a Diffusal Blade (and even have enough gold left to upgrade it) to increase your mid-game impact and general usefulness.

@LostFlip: Aghanim Scepter Upgrade (though my post already made it kind of obvious)
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Aghanim Scepter Upgrade
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

You'll need 3 gem to reveal him
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:56 AM   #7
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

He gets magic immunity while invisible
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

One of the suggestions, and serious, not a joke, was as above- 0 or 0.01 fade time on level 3 ult with scepter. The idea being you could attack while still invisible like Slark can, or attack and be simply a 'flash', so they know whats going on, but can't fight back. Why? Because even though it might sound overpowered on first thought, it would still be countered just the same by gems and wards and make him even more vulnerable to those threats since he spend 4300 gold on it and gains no attack from it.

Aghanims should always have a very strong effect on DPS role heroes, those like Kunkka, Riki, Sniper- those who aren't really tanks and who don't cast many spells. Its simple logic. Those heroes benefit *much* less from the stats than a caster/tank hero would. For example, Necrolyte has a very weak aghanims upgrade, but its still a moderately viable item on him no matter what people say, simply because it gives him exactly the stats he wants. But for a hero like Riki who desperately needs damage and chasing, but generally doesn't care about his HP/Mana as much, and especially when the upgrade makes him care even less about his HP (with truesight, he's either going to die outright or not take 1 damage with a 0.00 fade time, regardless of his HP). In that case, the upgrade should be very very strong.


Since most heroes with scepter upgrades are those that benefit from the hp/mana a bunch, a lot of the newer ones that go on DPS heroes should be a lot stronger by comparison to balance it out
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Maybe decreasing model or Riki by 45%?
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

As a kind of rule, ASU power should be inversely proportional to how much use the hero gets out of the AS stats. For examples, how much a hero gets out of the hp/mana/stats:

Extremely Useful: Harbinger (high tanking needs, high mana needs)
Moderately Useful: Ursa (tanks and has mana issues, but has bigger needs)
Average Use: Earthshaker (likes both, but neither tanks nor has real mana issues)
Not Very Useful: Slardar (he can use the HP, but not really the mana, and has huge other needs)
Sucks Entirely: Broodmother (she needs hp/mana/stats like she needs a wet sock full of soap)

So OD should have a fairly weak upgrade as he does, and brood should have something very strong, so that both items are relatively useful, but not overpowered.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic View Post
Maybe decreasing model or Riki by 45%?
Also remove his shadow and health bar visibility...
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

0 fade time maybe, it's the one thing that changes when you level his ult anyway. that or something gay like invis break damage (think lothar). =.= i can't think of anything else you can do for perma invis (aside from maybe give his model a blur animation when he gets aghs), but i don't think it's needed anyway. as godlykha pointed out, it has to be strong enough for a carry to consider pouring some gold into buying it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

All of a sudden a wild idea appears in my mind :
Riki with scepter still has his fade time like normal,but you cant see Riki
Somewhat like PA with Blur but shadow removed,so it's just like something invisible hitting u,gem cant counter the "Blur" part
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

gtfo noobs, someone obviously want to pub stomp with riki more. His smoke is already so strong that it could've been an ultimate, aoe CC which 3 different debuffs with low mp cost and short cd.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Any decent viable ideas or concepts that you could make for Riki's ASU would be concepts that change the way he is used, or they would not make it worth buying.


Which is why if we're gonna make ASU for Riki, it should definitely be something like perma-invis; something that's not really gonna be good enough to make aghs worth buying, since an organized team can gem or sentry ward efficiently enough that it'll hurt riki's money more than it hurts the enemy supports money... which is terrible for Riki.

At the same time, aghs in pub would be viable and good times ahead. It wouldn't totally stomp the other team, I mean even the worst players will buy dust and gem they'll just probably lose the gem or something. Yet it would still give an experienced Riki player a big advantage and become a worthwhile investment and a funny pubstomp. As I said though, even the worst players have an idea of countering this and it won't be automatic pubstomp; you're still gonna have to be good and farm other stuff. But it will pay for itself definitely

So like yeah just for lulz in pub make it perma invis or give him like Vendetta backstab or something? Don't let the backstab stack with his agi bonus of course... that would be too much damage, dependant on the backstab. First hit out of invis does double damage? It sounds good because it'd be no cd but since you'd be attacking less than half as much you couldn't abuse it, only good for initiate ganks or chasing.

Also I agree with the first paragraph of GodlyKha's first post strongly. However, regarding second paragraph, I don't think you want to make the upgrade too good for all carries just because they don't benefit from the stats though... it shouldn't be core on most carries, I for one would hate to see it becoming core on carries. like idk man, carries damage and stat whore, that's how it is right? I wouldn't want to overcentralize their ultimate game. It doesn't seem right, that's more what utility heroes do and initiators like Enigma and Leviathan where that's what they're all about.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #16
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Maybe he can walk through terrain and trees when invi.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Immune to dust/sentries.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

One thing I could think of would be, to make him move through units while invis and/or give him backstab damage when breaking invis (backstab damage as in backstab damage from Lothar's, not like in Riki's own skill).
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Not every hero needs ASU.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Knight View Post
Also I agree with the first paragraph of GodlyKha's first post strongly. However, regarding second paragraph, I don't think you want to make the upgrade too good for all carries just because they don't benefit from the stats though... it shouldn't be core on most carries, I for one would hate to see it becoming core on carries. like idk man, carries damage and stat whore, that's how it is right? I wouldn't want to overcentralize their ultimate game. It doesn't seem right, that's more what utility heroes do and initiators like Enigma and Leviathan where that's what they're all about.
Well you have to do it on a case by case basis for each hero, each carry. For example, Kunkka actually gets some decent benefit because he can be played as a caster with his combo primary. Its one reason behind one of my suggestions for his ASU already;
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showt...ght=ghost+ship

But with someone like Riki, or Troll Warlord, or Sniper? Maybe stronger ASU. But with someone like Slardar, Ursa, Centaur- you have to be much more careful. Not to necessarily say "all dps hero should have good aghanims", so much as, evaluate it on each hero based on how much they benefit from the hp mana and stats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMojoRisin View Post
Not every hero needs ASU.
I disagree. For consistencies sake, the endgame of DotA should have an ASU for every hero, even if its not whatsoever core on the most of them
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Give him backstab damage regardless of whether he's attacking from the back, front, sides or whatever. Heck, change the name from backstab to just, well, stab.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodlyKha View Post
Well you have to do it on a case by case basis for each hero, each carry. For example, Kunkka actually gets some decent benefit because he can be played as a caster with his combo primary. Its one reason behind one of my suggestions for his ASU already;
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showt...ght=ghost+ship

But with someone like Riki, or Troll Warlord, or Sniper? Maybe stronger ASU. But with someone like Slardar, Ursa, Centaur- you have to be much more careful. Not to necessarily say "all dps hero should have good aghanims", so much as, evaluate it on each hero based on how much they benefit from the hp mana and stats.
I agree with that. At the same time, I believe it should be good practice to keep it far away from core for all carries. All carries should benefit accordingly proportionately to their Ulti as you say, I totally agree, just like you don't want to make an average ulti like Snipers so good with aghs that it becomes core just because it gives him a super great viable ulti that's so big an improvement it's worth getting aghs. I'd like to keep it as more of a utility and support item and heroes like enchant and sandking and clock can get it and have fun but carries should ALWAYS be far more orientated towards stat whore items and what not. I wouldn't mind if it was a viable luxury though, so I agree. Or maybe like situational luxury. Whatever.

btw, If Ursa increases a tiny bit with aghs and Sniper increases heaps, it's gonna be closer to viable luxury for Sniper than Ursa, just pointing that out. If you're gonna make it increase ursa's just enough so you might ever consider getting it even if it is terrible, than you'd have to increase sniper's according to proportion right? But that would mean making it dangerously close to core... Not sure if you'll understand this part I don't think I explained well.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

All heroes must have ASU, even if hero is a carry, hard carry and so else. Icefrog said that all heroes will have ASU, and he will implement 2-3 ASU per patch. So soon we'll see ASU on carries, like Sniper, Riki, Spectre and so else
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Well, I suggested a ASU on Riki, but it seemed not to be liked from the community ;/

However here is the link: http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=747584
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

allows him to dodge projectiles with blink strike
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:30 PM   #26
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

Smokescreen follows him when he casts it. What? It doesn't have to be only the ulti changed (NS)
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

1. Allow him to blink to structures (no damage)
2. Faster smoke cast animation/bigger aoe/full miss (pick 2)
3. Allow him to cloak 1 friendly hero, 1 sec longer fade time than riki's
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

no, just no
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: ASU on Riki (Not Suggestion)

AoE invisibility :-O
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