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Old 05-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #401
Ali Radicali
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Default Morality without religion


Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
You indeed think I made something of a loophole there but it's only you who doesn't read properly.
Is "Nuh-uh" the only "argument" you know? How about, instead of simply denying the "loophole", you explain why it isn't a "loophole".

We asked you for a workable definition of christianity, and you dodge the question by answering "someone who behaves like a christian", which simply avoids the question by pushing it back one step. How does one behave like a christian? What is it all these "false christians" are doing wrong? Do you have to bhave like a christian all the time to count as a christian, or are you only a christian when you behave like one, or what?

Maybe I'm just ignorant (and coincidentally, everyone else in the thread too), but I don't see how your definition is of any use discerning true christians from false ones without additional information; information that you seem unwilling or unable to give.
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Why do I keep calling the Bible here and there huh?
Because you're convinced it's the literal truth and the word of god, despite not being able to argue your case.
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yes I want you to use this portion of the human body, encased inside the skull that we call brains, THINK man, THINK
Logic according to Star_Saber.

S_S: I'm right.
AR: No, because X,Y and Z
S_S: I'm right, go read the bible.
AR: I just explained why you're wrong. Also what does the bible have to do with this?
S_S: You're wrong and a retard. I'm still right.
AR: You're just repeating your assertions.
S_S: WHY DO YOU THINK I KEEP REPEATING MYSELF! THINK! THIIIIIIIIIIINK!

Sorry Star_Saber, but no amount of thinking on my part will turn your incoherent mass of assertions and fallacies into a valid and sound syllogism. Instead of trying to have us make sense of your nonsense, maybe YOU could put some actual thought into it, hmm?

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you simply can't be so disturbingly naive so as to declare that all who call themselves christians are actually christians, that is denying the man's ability to deceive others and that's insulting my intelligence in my face
First of all, I'm not declaring anything. My point is that I can't say if someone is a "true christian" or not and neither can you. Sure, if I observe their behavior, their rituals, if I test their knowledge of that religion, I can make a good guess based on that evidence, but ultimately, I have no way to be certain what another person believes.
If someone walks up to me on the street and tells me "I believe in X", I have only their word for it, and barring any evidence or reason to suspect otherwise, I have to tentatively accept that.

I already gave my definition of a christian: someone who professes to be a christian and follows some sort of doctrine or dogma based on the bible. Whether that means going door-to-door with lame pamphlets, wearing magic underwear, talking gibberish, believing in magic crackers or refusing any technology younger that 1700-something, it doesn't matter to me. They're all sects of christianity, they all base their religion on the same nonsense stories about jahwe and Jesus, so they're all christians to me.

Could they be lying? Absolutely, but why would they? And would it really matter to me if they did? Is there any outward difference between a true believer and someone who just goes through the motions?
 
Last edited by Ali Radicali; 05-12-2012 at 05:26 PM.
Old 05-12-2012, 05:21 PM   #402
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
on god? really?
Why not, I didn't say that you could doom God btw. You can't scratch him, but you can judge if God's real or not, if God's actions are being consequent with what he said or not. Those are judgements too, I bet you were thinking of something akin to bringing him up to a tribunal of justice like the ones we humans have for ourselves but that was not what I meant.

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no one's established what a christian even means yet, except something vague and immeasurable like a connection with god. am i god, to give you an answer to that?
I have said it, you have said it yourself, what need is there for me to repeat what's been said? yes, we have established what being a christian means, the word is even self-explanatory, so why would still you dodge my question?

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yes, i would probably be very concerned about this. it's not what's happening though. it's more like someone on an internet forum asks if electric technicians are more moral than other people, then one says they are, then someone points out out that some electric technicians have started wars and been immoral in lots of ways. he replies that those weren't real electric technicians and then when asked for a way to define what is an electric technician and what isn't he talks endlessly about stuff he brought up himself and argues punctuation and never actually gets around to giving that definition.
I told you that the definition of christian was already given. Then, according to that, you can tell accurately who is a christian, and who isn't, irregardless of their claims of them being christians or not. If you cannot trust a man dressed as a technician that claims to be a technician even though he doesn't step into your house yet, why would you trust someone that claims to be a christian but is blatantly doing something a christian would NOT do? I see what you're doing there.

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find a quote of me doing that.
I cannot find one that overtly says it but you seem to have hinted at it though.

i can't write it down from memory but i've read the bible.

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do you mean to say that everything in the bible is morally correct?
Isn't it obvious yet? why would you say you're not wearing glasses of rock then? God made everything we know of, including but not limited to morals, ethics, common sense and logic. All these things you don't like. If logic doesn't exist, then there is no sense in talking about logic. It wouldn't be real. All our assumptions and asserts we made based on logic would be automatically defeated. If our behaviours are defined by random events and not by choice, then it doesn't make sense to talk about morals. And a lot of things wouldn't make sense either. Criminals don't deserve to be jailed, the polices should be disbanded, prisons shouldn't exist, laws shouldn't exist, everyone should be free to do as they please. Our whole world SHOULD collapse. Is that the case? Why these things exist yet? A wise man once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Indeed, if God didn't exist, then our whole world shouldn't exist. We should have exterminated ourselves centuries ago. And that is yet another proof of what I'm saying.

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are you going to defend that claim against everything people are going to find in it? (stoning people comes to mind)
you're getting out of context AGAIN, to challenge the Bible you first must read the Bible wholly and correctly and understand it otherwise you'll appear as an internet ass to me.
Stoning people as you're pointing it was used in the context of a divine command given by God to the Israelites because of a specific reason, so if you're not an Israelite yourself, and that's overlooking the specific reason I'm refering to, why would you throw stones at someone? you aren't meeting the conditions for doing this, so why would you do it?

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the question is not about people who are of a sect you don't approve of or something, it's about people you agree with on theology. so do you accept that those people do evil or do you mean to say that the ones that follow your version of christianity (which one is it? you should establish that) but do bad stuff are heretics?
I won't pass judgement like that on people if I am to avoid judgement. It's true that they are heretics of sorts. But if their life hasn't ended yet then I'm nobody to judge if they deserve a second, third or fourth chance in life yet. I'll pass, I won't toss the first stone at them because I fail and commit sin and I want to be forgiven too, and even if I was without sin I wouldn't do it out of memory of the time I was forgiven. So if God doesn't kill these men on the spot, why should I? Jesus said one should forgive others as many times as it was needed, you quoted it yourself. This kind of attitude will probably get me killed, but so what. I can't avoid death. No one can. But death is necessary for one to be reborn. I mean it both, figurative and literally.

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does it have a way of identifying who should be considered a christian?
St. Paul said it himself. if even an angel of God was to tell you something that opposes the word of God, you know that angel is not coming from God. That angel is a devil. You're encouraged not to trust blindly in everything you may see or hear.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 06:18 PM   #403
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Default Re: Morality without religion

For the love of fucking God just answer the damn question:
What is a christian? What does make a person christian? And don't say a christian is a person that acts like a christian because that is evading the question without really sying anything.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:42 PM   #404
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
Why not, I didn't say that you could doom God btw. You can't scratch him, but you can judge if God's real or not, if God's actions are being consequent with what he said or not. Those are judgements too, I bet you were thinking of something akin to bringing him up to a tribunal of justice like the ones we humans have for ourselves but that was not what I meant.
no, i was thinking of what you just did. it defeats the whole point of believing in a higher authority.

Quote:
I have said it, you have said it yourself, what need is there for me to repeat what's been said? yes, we have established what being a christian means, the word is even self-explanatory, so why would still you dodge my question?
if i've said it you can probably find a quote.

i'm not trying to offend you here but you keep saying you've already said it and no one else has seen that.

Quote:
I cannot find one that overtly says it but you seem to have hinted at it though.
i've been careful not to. you must have misunderstood something.

Quote:
Isn't it obvious yet? why would you say you're not wearing glasses of rock then? God made everything we know of, including but not limited to morals, ethics, common sense and logic. All these things you don't like. If logic doesn't exist, then there is no sense in talking about logic. It wouldn't be real. All our assumptions and asserts we made based on logic would be automatically defeated. If our behaviours are defined by random events and not by choice, then it doesn't make sense to talk about morals. And a lot of things wouldn't make sense either. Criminals don't deserve to be jailed, the polices should be disbanded, prisons shouldn't exist, laws shouldn't exist, everyone should be free to do as they please. Our whole world SHOULD collapse. Is that the case? Why these things exist yet?
actually the bible is mainly about forgiveness, selflessness, universal good and respect for the proper authorities such as one's parents and God. the values the western government model is built on originate from greek and france from times when neither of those were christian. all the things you mentioned have a reasoning there. it has more to do with being functional societies than what anyone deserves or doesn't deserve.

nordic countries that give lenient sentences have less crime than USA that uses death penalty, by the way. ones that don't get killed also have a lower chance of repeating their mistake after they get out when the sentences are shorter and the prisons are better.

Quote:
A wise man once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". Indeed, if God didn't exist, then our whole world shouldn't exist. We should have exterminated ourselves centuries ago. And that is yet another proof of what I'm saying.
you're not taking that quote simply enough. whatever system isn't important, just if the good people do their best.

Quote:
you're getting out of context AGAIN, to challenge the Bible you first must read the Bible wholly and correctly and understand it otherwise you'll appear as an internet ass to me.
Stoning people as you're pointing it was used in the context of a divine command given by God to the Israelites because of a specific reason, so if you're not an Israelite yourself, and that's overlooking the specific reason I'm refering to, why would you throw stones at someone? you aren't meeting the conditions for doing this, so why would you do it?
i take it this means you're going to defend it. i'm not really interested on any of the killings in the bible but there have already been a bunch of that kind of bible quotes in this thread. i expect there will be more, now.

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I won't pass judgement like that on people if I am to avoid judgement. It's true that they are heretics of sorts. But if their life hasn't ended yet then I'm nobody to judge if they deserve a second, third or fourth chance in life yet. I'll pass, I won't toss the first stone at them because I fail and commit sin and I want to be forgiven too, and even if I was without sin I wouldn't do it out of memory of the time I was forgiven. So if God doesn't kill these men on the spot, why should I? Jesus said one should forgive others as many times as it was needed, you quoted it yourself. This kind of attitude will probably get me killed, but so what. I can't avoid death. No one can. But death is necessary for one to be reborn. I mean it both, figurative and literally.
so in conclusion, do you think religious people act better than the rest?
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No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 06:52 PM   #405
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
nordic countries that give lenient sentences have less crime than USA that uses death penalty, by the way. ones that don't get killed also have a lower chance of repeating their mistake after they get out when the sentences are shorter and the prisons are better.
a strong welfare state and lack of minorities is largely responsible for this, it's difficult (and I think impossible) to compare the american justice system to the nordic considering how different the two nations are as well as arguing that the lower crime rate is directly related to the lenient sentences

there's also the morality debate, the swedish dude that killed all the teens will serve a life sentence in a swedish prison

a Swedish prison
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt View Post
I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


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"Family reunion tomorrow, better buy some condoms."
-Redneck Randal
 
Old 05-12-2012, 07:02 PM   #406
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
a strong welfare state and lack of minorities is largely responsible for this, it's difficult (and I think impossible) to compare the american justice system to the nordic considering how different the two nations are as well as arguing that the lower crime rate is directly related to the lenient sentences
it's not the question if it's related, the whole thing pretty much proves that the opposite does not lower crime rate. whether it's actually better to show mercy or just nicer to the convicts isn't really important.

as for your other point, how about we don't fucking go there.
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No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 07:09 PM   #407
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
it's not the question if it's related, the whole thing pretty much proves that the opposite does not lower crime rate
I think the whole problem with U.S. prisons comes from lack of money.
Imagine if in jail there were education opportunities, a man serving 15 years who dropped out of elementary school coming out of prison with an in depth understanding of calculus?

I don't think punishment is related to crime in the first place. People without an opportunity to succeed in life (like many minorities) get caught in an endless cycle of free/jail, going back to jail as a result of that lack of opportunity. Whether they serve 20 or 2 years won't have an effect on them when they get out.

Prisons are a nice way to get opportunities in life, given enough money.
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt View Post
I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


"I ain't no scientician but I don't remember being no monkey."
"Family reunion tomorrow, better buy some condoms."
-Redneck Randal
 
Old 05-12-2012, 07:13 PM   #408
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
I don't think punishment is related to crime in the first place.
i don't see what we have to argue about then. the stuff you said about causes of crime is sensible.
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No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 08:30 PM   #409
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
no, i was thinking of what you just did. it defeats the whole point of believing in a higher authority.
again if we look at the Bible, in the book of Job, we read that God asks him if he's capable or worthy of judging God himself. That makes me think that one can make judgements on God even if they are mistaken, even if one is obviously not in the position to make such a judgement, otherwise why was God questioning this. One's encouraged to test God's loyalty by none other than God himself though. And you know that the man is eventually able of thinking and tinkering anything. However, no matter what evil thought crosses your mind ocassionally, if you don't say anything or take action you aren't guilty because you restrained yourself.

Quote:
if i've said it you can probably find a quote.
i'm not trying to offend you here but you keep saying you've already said it and no one else has seen that.
It's their bad if they can't read ftw. I believe that I can.

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i've been careful not to. you must have misunderstood something.
OK.

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actually the bible is mainly about forgiveness, selflessness, universal good and respect for the proper authorities such as one's parents and God.
I can simplify all of that into a single thing. It's this golden rule we've spoken of for several pages now. (this or other threads I've posted on as well, I don't really care) Forgiveness and selflessness and all of that is not just there for the sake of it, it is for us to coexist with each other peacefully instead of destroying ourselves.

Quote:
the values the western government model is built on originate from greek and france from times when neither of those were christian.
You're pretty wrong on that too. Jesus was contemporary of August, the Roman emperor, isnt that what our history textbooks tell us? And haven't you come to read how Paul went to preach and testify to those Greek cities as the Bible says? all these civilizations started out well but were corrupted in the end, because they choose not to believe in God, and when man turns his back to God there is only death and oblivion left for him, because God is the only one who can oppose to the devil and win. Mankind can't make a stand against the devil themselves.
The whole USA owes its power and great influence in the world as a force of good (as far as nations go) to none other than God himself, why? because all of these patriots, these distinguished men who led their nation were initially inspired by christian values that came from God himself. It's even written in their motto: "In God we trust". Isn't that faith? You don't trust me but just watch this. They started to forget God, they turned their backs to him and they slowly but steadily started to lose influence and power. It will get worse. They will fall completely, just like the Greek and the Romans in their time. Watch it.
And what about Israel? it's already stated in the Bible that all nations in the world will make alliance against Israel and engage in war against them, but they will be defeated. Not that the israelites are morally better or stronger than we the rest of the world are, but God is backing them up as part of his pact with Abraham, and the king David who were their ancestors. The israelites will prevail no matter what. It's happening now. The European nations already made an alliance with themselves. Our whole economies are globalized, if Europe or Asia have a crisis then America suffers it too, that didn't happen before did it? Time will come when nations won't exist, and there will be a single person (and not just about any person, but the best person this world has to offer) as the global leader. But guess what, that person will be a betrayer too. All these things are written already so that we are aware. If you have read the Bible you would know.

all the things you mentioned have a reasoning there. it has more to do with being functional societies than what anyone deserves or doesn't deserve.

Quote:
nordic countries that give lenient sentences have less crime than USA that uses death penalty, by the way. ones that don't get killed also have a lower chance of repeating their mistake after they get out when the sentences are shorter and the prisons are better.
I don't see your point. Sentences are not meant to discourage people from commiting crime but to punish criminals. Because it's already assumed that a seasoned person, that any citizen is a good, innocent person and who won't commit crime. Pressumption of innocence. If it was otherwise then everybody should be in 3x3 prison cells. It's not fear what stops us from comitting crime or being immoral because we can overcome fear. It's everybody's decision. Life is a life of choices, I decide what to do, then my decisions have a big part on making me what I am. And the same applies to everybody.
And man can't cleanse the world of evil with harsher punishments. On the contrary the situation just gets worse. Death isn't fixed by bringing about more death. You become what you hate and the spiral of evil and sorrow just grows bigger. We need a way to convince the evildoers among us that they're doing evil, to the people surrounding them and ultimately themselves as well. And the only one who can do that is God himself.

Quote:
you're not taking that quote simply enough. whatever system isn't important, just if the good people do their best.
No, it isn't enough. We aren't our own enemies, Satan is. Again, St Paul pointed it out. It's not enough because the devil is more powerful than any human or the whole collective of mankind. Satan is superhuman, is smarter than us, has more knowledge about things than we do because he was created before us, and he works tirelessly, because he doesn't need to eat or sleep. Last but not least he has an army of demons working for him in every corner of the world. We can't fight this menace ourselves. We can't win this war on our own. But we don't need to struggle fighting a lost war like this. We are told to make peace with ourselves and with God. If we do this then God will come and will fight for us. That's our hope.

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i take it this means you're going to defend it. i'm not really interested on any of the killings in the bible but there have already been a bunch of that kind of bible quotes in this thread. i expect there will be more, now.
So what.

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so in conclusion, do you think religious people act better than the rest?
if I go by the original definition of religion then yes. If I go by what you think religion is, then no.
 
Last edited by Star_Saber; 05-12-2012 at 08:45 PM.
Old 05-12-2012, 09:05 PM   #410
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
again if we look at the Bible, in the book of Job, we read that God asks him if he's capable or worthy of judging God himself. That makes me think that one can make judgements on God even if they are mistaken, even if one is obviously not in the position to make such a judgement, otherwise why was God questioning this. One's encouraged to test God's loyalty by none other than God himself though. And you know that the man is eventually able of thinking and tinkering anything. However, no matter what evil thought crosses your mind ocassionally, if you don't say anything or take action you aren't guilty because you restrained yourself.
you mean this part?

"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth. They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it. Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom."
i found this bit with it and i don't disagree so i'm gonna go with it:

The answer to Eliphaz’s question is of course: No, mortal man cannot be more just than God, or more pure than his maker. And yet, when predestination is spoken of, or whenever Gd allows some natural disaster to occur, a common response to to ask: “What does God think he is about?” The whole thrust of the book of Job is that natural disasters cannot necessarily be interpreted in terms of divine displeasure, but that is not the point. The point is that God has his reasons which are not ours to know, and for man to question his maker, or cast aspertions upon him, is wholly inappropriate. We cannot say that we will worship God, just so long as he lives up to our expectations, because that is no worship at all.

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It's their bad if they can't read ftw.
are you so above us then that even when everyone's disagreeing you still don't need to reason your claims?

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I believe that I can.
go ahead.

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I can simplify all of that into a single thing. It's this golden rule we've spoken of for several pages now. (this or other threads I've posted on as well, I don't really care) Forgiveness and selflessness and all of that is not just there for the sake of it, it is for us to coexist with each other peacefully instead of destroying ourselves.
by golden rule you mean this?

"One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."

you don't need a whole book for something this simple, or this stupid.

Quote:
No, it isn't enough. We aren't our own enemies, Satan is. Again, St Paul pointed it out. It's not enough because the devil is more powerful than any human or the whole collective of mankind. Satan is superhuman, is smarter than us, has more knowledge about things than we do because he was created before us, and he works tirelessly, because he doesn't need to eat or sleep. Last but not least he has an army of demons working for him in every corner of the world. We can't fight this menace ourselves. We can't win this war on our own. But we don't need to struggle fighting a lost war like this. We are told to make peace with ourselves and with God. If we do this then God will come and will fight for us. That's our hope.
a while ago you said no one makes us do evil. isn't that what you're saying now?

can you actually quote me any part of the bible that says any part of this, the devil as something that gives a damn about any of us, has an army of demons, or super powers? (really? "superhuman"?) can you even find a part that states that he is evil?

actually, can you even find more than one mention of a single "devil"?

Quote:
if I go by the original definition of religion then yes. If I go by what you think religion is, then no.
are there many people who fit this definition?
__________________
No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Last edited by doomsheep; 05-12-2012 at 09:42 PM.
Old 05-12-2012, 11:32 PM   #411
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
The answer to Eliphaz’s question is of course: No, mortal man cannot be more just than God, or more pure than his maker. And yet, when predestination is spoken of, or whenever Gd allows some natural disaster to occur, a common response to to ask: “What does God think he is about?” The whole thrust of the book of Job is that natural disasters cannot necessarily be interpreted in terms of divine displeasure, but that is not the point. The point is that God has his reasons which are not ours to know, and for man to question his maker, or cast aspertions upon him, is wholly inappropriate. We cannot say that we will worship God, just so long as he lives up to our expectations, because that is no worship at all.
what is this, where does this come from?

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are you so above us then that even when everyone's disagreeing you still don't need to reason your claims?
I already did

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by golden rule you mean this?

"One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."

you don't need a whole book for something this simple, or this stupid.
It isn't stupid, in fact that single quote condenses what life is about. You needed a whole book to explain a lot of these other things in detail. Although it is a good rule it doesn't tell you that there is a God watching you.

Quote:
a while ago you said no one makes us do evil. isn't that what you're saying now?
You misunderstand me. The devil doesn't brainwash you into doing evil but he'd likely do that if he could. The devil is generally a tempter although once in a while he may be allowed to do direct harm on mankind, as he did to Job. However he can't just make any display of strength like this and erase mankind from the surface of Earth because God is restraining him. But back to the point. Since the devil is being kept from destroying you with his own dirty hands, his only way to have you destroyed is to deceive you into doing sin against God and making you think that either God doesn't exist, or maybe that even though God exists he won't forgive you for what you did. Then you will die a sinner and consequently you will be sent to hell itself. That's his whole strategy: first he tempts you ---> you sin so you turn yourself against God ---> you out of ignorance or stupidity don't beg forgiveness ---> you die a sinner and are punished by God himself. However God eventually reveals you the truth about this and tells you that there is a way to not end up into hell and that is by accepting that Jesus, his son, died for you, sacrificing himself as a scapegoat, and that God now simply has to see you acknowledging Jesus' sacrifice and then that he revived and that you now accept him as your saviour and ruler and then you can ask forgiveness and by doign this then you become a christian. God gives you this choice for free. Then you're no longer doomed to hell and everything becomes a matter of choices again.
But again you first must believe in that this actually happened which is a choice in itself too. At some point in your lifetime you hear this story and then you must decide if you're gonna believe it or not.

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can you actually quote me any part of the bible that says any part of this, the devil as something that gives a damn about any of us
Well I'm afraid you're a liar and you didn't read the whole Bible at all. Seems you're thinking that the devil is some kind of genie or fairy that may seem a little mischievous but doesn't really mean any harm, is that it? what does the Bible say about him?

"Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

"1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

"John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." ("thief" here is strongly implied to be the devil himself; you can see in other versions/translations of the Bible that the word "devil" is being used instead; again read the whole paragraph to see the context.)

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, has an army of demons, or super powers? (really? "superhuman"?) can you even find a part that states that he is evil?
Oh come on, the devil is constantly said to be a killer, a deceiver, a thief, a destroyer, the ultimate enemy of mankind, you don't think those things he does are NOT evil, right? I mean you actually read and quoted the book of Job and still you claim Satan didn't want to do any harm to Job?
Go read the Bible again

actually make sure you can read huge walls of text properly

READING SKILLS FTW

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actually, can you even find more than one mention of a single "devil"?
facepalm.jpg

I'm being trolled by you at this point
 
Last edited by Star_Saber; 05-12-2012 at 11:57 PM.
Old 05-13-2012, 01:32 AM   #412
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Morality:

What is morality?
There is no exact definition to this word but if we try to come to agreement morality is the conjunct of values approved by a society in that regard there are many different versions of morality according to the culture that holds these values. Going futher morality is ALWAYS changing because culture changes and so does these values that are part of "morality" according to our current vision of morality, the morality that some people hold in the past is wrong.
For example killing for pride or honor is no longer considered "moral" like in the age of knigts, sexual relationships between a 30 year old men and a 14 year old boy is no longer "common" has it used to be in Sparta.
Obviously the are people that were considered bad/evil/scum under the morality of these ages (traitors, rapists, thiefs, trolls, etc.)
Finally even if we share a "common morality" with the society that we live in ther is also a "our morality" that interact, changes and even goes in conflict with the "common morality"
For example:
Quote:
There is a person that if is killed you could save other 200, if you don't kill that person 200 people are going to leave this world(Including your family)... Killing is killing, and by doing so you will become a murderer but in the eyes of these 200 people you will be an hero.
This example shows how the sense of morality can change dependng even on the context.

We can't just simply claim that one person is inmoral because he/she don't have the values that we hold in our society, first whe should evalute if the "common morality" of his society is the same and the enviroment if wich that person was raised.

MORALITY IS CREATED BY MANKIND, NOT BY GOD.


About religion:
I don't know how these two charming gentlemen dive in such a pointless disscusion on bible interpretation, not when it is a book that has caused such polemic and in top of that, a book wich his different interpretations has been used so many times for both violent and pacific goals.


Being a christian:
Being a christian is not a just a conduct(behavior) but is more involved with diferent mental processes (thinking) wich leads us to comprehend and accept a version of morality given by a religious group. Most of these values can only be truly evaluated has "good" or "bad" is the people inside that society (the church that holds these doctrines). Therefore we (people outside that group) are only limited to comment and review on that morality.

Good and Evil
There is good because there is evil and we different between them according to our morality. If we belive in God then we also believe that he create "everything" including evil, why you ask? to test us probably you will answer and while that seems a valid response there is a major problem:

Quote:
he tempts you ---> you sin so you turn yourself against God ---> you out of ignorance or stupidity don't beg forgiveness ---> you die a sinner and are punished by God himself.
Quoted from Star_Saber

God creates mankind -> God creates good -> God creates evil -> Therefore god is evil

No matter what the reason us creating something that will bring pain, harm, despair and many other negative feelings is evil. So, by the definition that our friend Star_Saber gives, God creates good and evil, then he "test us" and if whe fail he wants us to beg for forgiveness... If you ask me that is a very sadistic God you have there

Quote:
"so in conclusion, do you think religious people act better than the rest?"
- if I go by the original definition of religion then yes. If I go by what you think religion is, then no.
Quoted from a dialogue between doomshep and Star_Saber

A example of how morality, good and evil is not a global concept.
Person A is asking if person B think that religious people is better than non-eligious people, person B confirms his posture, therefore for person B anyone that is not religious must be evil (By his own definition)
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Old 05-13-2012, 06:13 AM   #413
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post

Does God make room for murderers in heaven?


According to the bible God or Yahweh is a murder of millions. Perhaps he'd like some company?


you still havn't given a proper definition of Christianity, one that differentiates a crusader from the pious beacons of goodness such as yourself.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:15 PM   #414
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
what is this, where does this come from?
i found it on the internet. you can argue with it.

Quote:
I already did
that is what we are disagreeing with here. to us it looks like you didn't and you keep refusing to actually give a quote of that. but if you prefer to keep calling everyone stupid rather than deliver proof, what are we going to do? it's not like we can just assume you have nothing and are doing it to avoid looking like a complete moron.

there's also the matter of that thing you say i said but but when i asked for a quote you ignored it.

Quote:
It isn't stupid, in fact that single quote condenses what life is about. You needed a whole book to explain a lot of these other things in detail. Although it is a good rule it doesn't tell you that there is a God watching you.
"be nice to each other" would be much better, don't you think?

Quote:
"Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?"

"1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"
that's just the apostles. but okay, that would seem to be multiple references to the same guy.

Quote:
"John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." ("thief" here is strongly implied to be the devil himself; you can see in other versions/translations of the Bible that the word "devil" is being used instead; again read the whole paragraph to see the context.)
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

"All who have come before me"

that's plural. is the devil a doppleganger?

think about it. there would be no reason he talks about multiple entities if you assume the devil to be some sort of ultimate avatar of all evil.

Quote:
Oh come on, the devil is constantly said to be a killer, a deceiver, a thief, a destroyer, the ultimate enemy of mankind, you don't think those things he does are NOT evil, right?
i think the bible makes it quite clear that humanity is more or less evil. lack of altruism toward something one does not like doesn't make someone entirely evil, though this person could be described with lots of negative words.

if you assume screwing with humans is evil then you should judge God on about zillion counts of murder and a ton of other dickish acts. and the part where he's omnipotent but doesn't do anything about the devil screwing everyone.

plus this part that implies the devil is in fact in charge of the earth. i don't know if it should be understood that god in fact gave him all that or if he just let him take it. later there's some stuff about the devil having to obey god. (how would one even oppose an omnipotent being? it makes no sense.)

"6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."
__________________
No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Last edited by doomsheep; 05-13-2012 at 03:25 PM.
Old 05-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #415
Ali Radicali
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Default Re: Morality without religion

God is so much more evil than the devil, even if you ONLY use the bible as a source. In the bible, the only direct casualties of the devil that I'm aware of are the sons and daughters of Job, 10 in total. And those deaths aren't even fully satan's responsibility, since he was testing Job for a wager Satan had made with god.


God, on the other hand, has a body count of at least 2.4 million in the bible alone. However, since it often doesn't cite numbers, especially for the very big genocides(like when god kills all humanity with the flood), the real number might be closer to 25 mil.
source


Even if you take their supposed motivations into account, god can only be described as an inept, jealous and overbearing control freak. All the devil did to earn his title was troll a single woman once, and the rest of biblical history is just god taking more and more drastic measures to fix what he perceives as mistakes. People aren't behaving like they should? Send natural disasters.
How unambiguous! How kind and loving!

If god's motivation is his love for humanity, he has a strange way of showing it. Rather than using his omnipotence to actually solve his/our problems, he just uses mundane events to give us humans hints how we're supposed to fix his problems for him. And if we don't comply we get disease and disaster.
 
Old 05-13-2012, 02:25 PM   #416
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Radicali View Post
God is so much more evil than the devil, even if you ONLY use the bible as a source. In the bible, the only direct casualties of the devil that I'm aware of are the sons and daughters of Job, 10 in total. And those deaths aren't even fully satan's responsibility, since he was testing Job for a wager Satan had made with god.


God, on the other hand, has a body count of at least 2.4 million in the bible alone. However, since it often doesn't cite numbers, especially for the very big genocides(like when god kills all humanity with the flood), the real number might be closer to 25 mil.
source


Even if you take their supposed motivations into account, god can only be described as an inept, jealous and overbearing control freak. All the devil did to earn his title was troll a single woman once, and the rest of biblical history is just god taking more and more drastic measures to fix what he perceives as mistakes. People aren't behaving like they should? Send natural disasters.
How unambiguous! How kind and loving!

If god's motivation is his love for humanity, he has a strange way of showing it. Rather than using his omnipotence to actually solve his/our problems, he just uses mundane events to give us humans hints how we're supposed to fix his problems for him. And if we don't comply we get disease and disaster.
But God loves you!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt View Post
I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


"I ain't no scientician but I don't remember being no monkey."
"Family reunion tomorrow, better buy some condoms."
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:10 PM   #417
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
that is what we are disagreeing with here. to us it looks like you didn't and you keep refusing to actually give a quote of that. but if you prefer to keep calling everyone stupid rather than deliver proof, what are we going to do? it's not like we can just assume you have nothing and are doing it to avoid looking like a complete moron.
I'm not going to give more proof than I already did. OK, I'm not calling you a moron either. Although maybe a troll. Go read pages back if you want to.

Quote:
there's also the matter of that thing you say i said but but when i asked for a quote you ignored it.
I said you may have hinted that someone can be something simply by claiming to be that. And then you said what a christian does, by accepting Jesus as lord and saviour and all that.
Which event are you refering to?

Quote:
"be nice to each other" would be much better, don't you think?
No. Definition of "being nice" would differ from person to person, for you it might mean something, and for me it would mean something totally different to what you think. The golden rule calls on your self-respect though. Because if you do respect yourself, if you do appreciate yourself and all what you have at hand you wouldn't take away from others. You wouldn't do harm to others, else you know they would be dealing with you as you have dealt with them. But every person loves him/herself to some degree and that's why it works.
It might at times not be very accurate because sometimes one might think everybody else are as strong and can withstand harm as much as one's self can (however that's not always the case), but it's so much more accurate than just saying "be nice to others".

Quote:
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

"All who have come before me"

that's plural. is the devil a doppleganger?
No, obviously not, but he has pawns working for him, humans and demons alike.

Quote:
think about it. there would be no reason he talks about multiple entities if you assume the devil to be some sort of ultimate avatar of all evil.
Multiple entities as in, several servants of Satan himself. Clear enough to me.

Quote:
i think the bible makes it quite clear that humanity is more or less evil.
The humanity is deceived first and then they take the choice of being evil. But the temptation comes first. The devil doesn't just present you with the choice of doing some evil, he makes you believe that you will gain some kind of profit from doing it. He still uses the same modus operandi he used back with Adam and Eve.

Quote:
lack of altruism toward something one does not like doesn't make someone evil, though it can make him kind of a dick.
Being evil is more than just lack of altruism, is just working towards destruction of others. Satan would kill you himself right now if he was allowed to. Being evil is the result of being away from God, of turning your back to God. Because when you don't hear what God says, you don't have a guideline, a moral compass telling you what is right and wrong then you eventually end up being a total pervert and actively doing evil towards others. Then you die and are wondering what are you doing in hell.

Quote:
if you assume screwing with humans is evil then you should judge God on about zillion counts of murder and a ton of other dickish acts.
God kills you out of punishment. That's not being dickish. Being dickish means God was going to kill you even though you have done nothing evil. But you have done evil. However even if you're the worst criminal scumbag on Earth, God doesn't kill you right away either. He gives you time to repent. When he deems that time has passed, and you did nothing about it, you get to go. There's also imho the possibility of people being killed by others and you blaming their deaths onto God.

Quote:
and the part where he's omnipotent but doesn't do anything about the devil screwing everyone.
Being omnipotent doesn't mean God can take away someone else's free will. I mean he could, but then again if he does this assassins don't have free will anymore. Satan himself is actually restrained by God, and hindered from killing you with his own hands. At least temporarily. Read the book of Job again and how Satan can't touch Job unless God allows him to. Previous to this Satan even complains to God in a rather childish-like manner how God wouldn't let him cause harm to Job.

Quote:
plus this part that implies the devil is in fact in charge of the earth.
It is as you say, the devil is in charge of most of the Earth. Earth was given to the man, but the man made the wrong decision and turned away from God, so the man isn't aligned with God anymore. I say most of the Earth because those who have surrendered themselves to God, those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, these ones we call christians, are still in Earth yet outside of the devil's dominion. The devil can't touch christians unless God allows him to.

Quote:
i don't know if it should be understood that god in fact gave him all that or if he just let him take it.
When you give something to someone, it is no longer yours, so you just let it go. God remains loyal to the deals and agreements he makes with others. In this case the entire Earth was given to Adam and Eve, and by extention to all of mankind. But then Adam and Eve commited sin, and their link, their friendship and communion with God was broken. However God didn't take Earth back from them, although they were cast out of the paradise, Eden. Earth remains as something belonging to mankind. However again mankind was no longer friends with God, and so the devil took the world for himself.

When you commit sin, you're out of God's cover, so the devil finds an opening, a loophole in the system, which gives him a way to cause you prejudice and harm. Not only that, but you become a property of the devil yourself as well. At this point, if the devil attacks you, God no longer defends you because you rejected God out of your own choice. Again, the devil cannot kill you himself but can convince others of doing it, or can even send you into a state of depression that leads to you killing yourself.

Quote:
later there's some stuff about the devil having to obey god. (how would one even oppose an omnipotent being? it makes no sense.)
no one can oppose God, not even the devil. The devil just can do something as long as you let him do by means of sin so he tempts you into doing sin. Once you've done so, he gets you.

Quote:
"6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine."
Yeah, in many other versicles Jesus mentions several times that those who commit sin are sons of the devil as well. Sons, properties, you get the idea. If some nation's president or ruler is working for the devil then it is to be expected that the whole nation's government is devoted to the devil then. Besides any christian resistance, ofc.
 
Old 05-13-2012, 05:39 PM   #418
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Default Re: Morality without religion

I can't resist to link that: god's kill count: more than 2 millions people, plus 65 cities and their population destroyed, plus the rest (flood and such)...



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Old 05-13-2012, 06:05 PM   #419
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
I'm not going to give more proof than I already did. OK, I'm not calling you a moron either. Although maybe a troll. Go read pages back if you want to.
here's the whole quote chain

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a christian would seem to be someone who's properly initiated and considers themself one. that would make lots of bad people christians so the argument is sensible.
OK. I now declare myself that I'm a secretary. Will you believe me? How will you know? does my claim make me a secretary?

AND WHY WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT FOR A CHRISTIAN?
it's a classic definition of a christian. you get baptised and accept jesus christ as your lord and savior and you're accepted.
and where's the part about making crusades and killing people that doesn't believe in my God? because these "christians" (not saying that they are christians, but you did) did just that.
the conflict of this and the idea that christians don't do evil is sort of what people have been getting at. your story doesn't seem to hold up.
I never said christians never did evil things. Did you read a post of mine saying that? link me to it now. A christian isn't supposed to do evil things but it's not granted that they won't do evil things. However, as I said, one doesn't just believe. One acts accordingly. If you are indeed a christian you SHOULDN'T do evil things. Please notice I said SHOULDN'T instead of CAN'T.
so i assumed you wanted to extend it to any other horrible, horrible horrible things people who called themselves christians
Again with this idiocy, idiocy IDIOCY THAT INSULTS MY EYES whenever I see it.

Is someone who claims to be a soldier a real soldier?
Is someone who claims to be a secretary an actual secretary?
i called them "people who called themselves christians", which is entirely true because that is a thing they did.
Again you evade my question. Does that actually make them christians?
no one's established what a christian even means yet, except something vague and immeasurable like a connection with god. am i god, to give you an answer to that?
I have said it, you have said it yourself, what need is there for me to repeat what's been said? yes, we have established what being a christian means, the word is even self-explanatory, so why would still you dodge my question?
if i've said it you can probably find a quote.

i'm not trying to offend you here but you keep saying you've already said it and no one else has seen that.
It's their bad if they can't read ftw. I believe that I can.
go ahead. (there was no reply to this part)
Quote:
Quote:
there's also the matter of that thing you say i said but but when i asked for a quote you ignored it.
I said you may have hinted that someone can be something simply by claiming to be that. And then you said what a christian does, by accepting Jesus as lord and saviour and all that.
Which event are you refering to?
__________________
No. In the time it took you to say that sentence, I evaluated this over three hundred times. And I can tell you that we're way past 'unwise' and all the way into 'stupid'.
 
Last edited by doomsheep; 05-13-2012 at 06:21 PM.
Old 05-13-2012, 06:28 PM   #420
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Default Re: Morality without religion

So after many pages of non-sense talking we realize that Star_Saber still don't give his definition of christian... In other words we still don't move from square 1, what was the point of this conversation again?
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Old 05-13-2012, 09:22 PM   #421
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Naga View Post
So after many pages of non-sense talking we realize that Star_Saber still don't give his definition of christian... In other words we still don't move from square 1, what was the point of this conversation again?
ahh but you see, I think he actually did without realizing it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
I say most of the Earth because those who have surrendered themselves to God, those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, these ones we call christians, are still in Earth yet outside of the devil's dominion.

A christian is someone who accepts jesus as their lord and saviour.
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Old 05-13-2012, 10:13 PM   #422
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Default Re: Morality without religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka
here's a man who has never had contact with a Jew, lives 300 years before Jesus was even alive, is an atheist, and spreads messages of nonviolence, peace, and love

interesting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt View Post
I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


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"Family reunion tomorrow, better buy some condoms."
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:37 AM   #423
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoHourMotel View Post
ahh but you see, I think he actually did without realizing it:




A christian is someone who accepts jesus as their lord and saviour.
Do you realize that, he posted that in this very page and up to now he was saying:

"Lol idiots I already say what is a christian, a christian is a person that acts like a christian"

What is kinda the same to saying "Lol, idiots I already say what is a doctor, a doctor is a person that acts like a doctor"
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:49 AM   #424
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
It is as you say, the devil is in charge of most of the Earth. Earth was given to the man, but the man made the wrong decision and turned away from God, so the man isn't aligned with God anymore. I say most of the Earth because those who have surrendered themselves to God, those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, these ones we call christians, are still in Earth yet outside of the devil's dominion. The devil can't touch christians unless God allows him to.
Hah! Got you there buddy! Unintentionally, you've finally provided us with a definition of Christianity: "those who have surrendered themselves to God, those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, these ones we call christians."

Oh wait, that applies to catholics, mormons, amish and other mennonites, baptists, anabaptists, southern baptists, lutherans, calvinists, eastern orthodox christians and all the other 30000+ denominations of christianity.


Also, "The devil can't touch christians unless God allows him to." Really?
So everytime bad shit happens to a christian, god's just like "yeah, go ahead Lucy, you fuck them up good!"

Seems legit.

Quote:
Again, the devil cannot kill you himself but can convince others of doing it, or can even send you into a state of depression that leads to you killing yourself.
The devil can't kill you? Why are you so afraid of him then.

Also, what about Job's progeny? What about all the Christians that god allows satan to rape?
 
Old 05-14-2012, 01:04 AM   #425
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Default Re: Morality without religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Radicali View Post
Hah! Got you there buddy! Unintentionally, you've finally provided us with a definition of Christianity: "those who have surrendered themselves to God, those who have accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, these ones we call christians."

Oh wait, that applies to catholics, mormons, amish and other mennonites, baptists, anabaptists, southern baptists, lutherans, calvinists, eastern orthodox christians and all the other 30000+ denominations of christianity.


Also, "The devil can't touch christians unless God allows him to." Really?
So everytime bad shit happens to a christian, god's just like "yeah, go ahead Lucy, you fuck them up good!"

Seems legit.
Even if I loled with your post and It actually match some of my toughts about his "definition" of christian I think that we should keep on a "serious" note because this thread is ironacilly almost in the gates of hells, or else we should just ask a moderator to just close this thing

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Originally Posted by Ali Radicali View Post
The devil can't kill you? Why are you so afraid of him then.

Also, what about Job's progeny? What about all the Christians that god allows satan to rape?
Acording to my ex-teacher of mytology hell is ruled by 2 demons Beelzebub, Satan/Lucy he also mentioned that at some point of christian culture there was the popular belief that Satan and Lucy were two separated demons, but that belief is long forgotten.
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Old 05-14-2012, 02:04 AM   #426
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Royal_Naga View Post
Even if I loled with your post and It actually match some of my toughts about his "definition" of christian I think that we should keep on a "serious" note because this thread is ironacilly almost in the gates of hells, or else we should just ask a moderator to just close this thing
Meh, I think a certain amount of ridicule is justifiable at this point, when you look at the kind of posts we're expected to respond to. Considering the kind of dishonest debating and verbal abuse the theists keep using, I think it'd be unfair of the mods to punish us for the occasional snarky comment.

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Originally Posted by Royal_Naga View Post
Acording to my ex-teacher of mytology hell is ruled by 2 demons Beelzebub, Satan/Lucy he also mentioned that at some point of christian culture there was the popular belief that Satan and Lucy were two separated demons, but that belief is long forgotten.
There might have been two kings of hell at some point, but AFAIK christian theology has flipped-flopped around about the issues of satan/hell like a stranded eel.

The thing is, the old testament, on which the christians base their mythology, doesn't have heaven/hell. It doesn't have a devil. Shit, it isn't even monotheistic. There's a reason for the commandment "thou shalt have no other gods before me. I.E.: I'm the first god you should acknowledge.
The old testament is quite un-subtle about it too. God has multiple names(Jah, Jahwe, Adonai, El, Elohim, etc.) and sometimes he's adressed in singular(El), sometimes in plural(Elohim "the children of El"). Other gods appear in the narrative, in fact god has a wife at one point (sophia/ashura, godess of wisdom)

As the narrative changed into a monothistic one, all the other gods became facets of god or devils (which then became one devil).

Satan means accuser or adversary, and while it sometimes refers to an angel whose job it was to tempt people into disobeying god and report it back to his master, more often it simply refers to a generic enemy within the narrative.

Lucifer literally means lightbringer(figuratively used to describe venus, the morningstar). He wasn't invented until the second or third century AD, and is the source of the rebellious "fallen angel" aspect of the devil character. Satan was simply doing his job back when he was molesting Job. Lucifer on the other hand is supposed to be a rogue agent.

Beelzebub = Baal, an older phillistine god who was maligned by the conquering isrealites. See the bible: 2 kings 1.

If you investigate the development of Judaism and christianity, many of the contradictions and inconsistencies in the modern theology become more understandable. God wasn't an omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent supreme being back in the days of moses. He was simply the biggest, baddest god in the pantheon and the isrealites thought it best to keep him on their side. Since he wasn't all powerful or particularly merciful, the people didn't need to invent stupid ad-hoc rationalisations for evil: it was caused by other gods or (more often) Jahweh was pissed at them.
Heaven and Hell weren't invented until much later, so the inherent immorality of infinity punisment wasn't there at the start.


No it's only when you put together the older puzzle pieces with the newer ones that christianity becomes stupidly contradictory, like how god is supposedly good and nothing can happen without his consent, yet he constantly allows the devil to cause harm and wreak havoc.
 
Old 05-14-2012, 02:37 AM   #427
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Default Re: Morality without religion

At the very beginning Satan was the equivalent to Prometheus from greek mitology, they were both suppose to betray their "kind" to give the knowledge to human kind, but after the events with Adam and Eve he was portrayed has the "source of all evils"
U MAD Aangra Mainyu?
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Old 05-14-2012, 03:06 AM   #428
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Royal_Naga View Post
At the very beginning Satan was the equivalent to Prometheus from greek mitology, they were both suppose to betray their "kind" to give the knowledge to human kind, but after the events with Adam and Eve he was portrayed has the "source of all evils"
U MAD Aangra Mainyu?
Nonono, that was lucifer, and that was retconned into the story in 200-300 AD, centuries after the original garden of eden story was cooked up (by babylonians btw). In the story it's a walking, talking snake. Whether you consider it the devil is a matter of framing IMO. There is certainly a parallel to be drawn between the apple and the gift of fire, and perhaps the snake and prometheus too, but to consider the snake to be the devil is IMO already interpretation.

Another interesting parallel is pandora's box, where pandora's curiosity tempts her to open the box, unleashing terrible evils on humanity. In both stories, the god(s) give a woman a tempting gift that can only end up hurting them.
 
Old 05-14-2012, 03:20 AM   #429
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Ali Radicali View Post
Nonono, that was lucifer, and that was retconned into the story in 200-300 AD, centuries after the original garden of eden story was cooked up (by babylonians btw). In the story it's a walking, talking snake. Whether you consider it the devil is a matter of framing IMO. There is certainly a parallel to be drawn between the apple and the gift of fire, and perhaps the snake and prometheus too, but to consider the snake to be the devil is IMO already interpretation.

Another interesting parallel is pandora's box, where pandora's curiosity tempts her to open the box, unleashing terrible evils on humanity. In both stories, the god(s) give a woman a tempting gift that can only end up hurting them.
Sorry, my big problem back in the class of mitology was confusing names, I do remember some traditions and stories but when it comes to identify devinities by names I'm losed, has a matter of fack from the world of Voodoo I can only recall Obatala.
The lesson here is that Gods are the first know trolls
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:53 AM   #430
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Default Re: Morality without religion

The most interesting thing about Christianity is that, as the word of God, its scripture and rituals are practically a carbon copy of the pagan god Mithras and his cult

I wouldn't expect the average Christian to know that, and idk why I never brought that up, but yeah
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I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


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Old 05-14-2012, 11:16 PM   #431
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Ali Radicali View Post
Nonono, that was lucifer, and that was retconned into the story in 200-300 AD, centuries after the original garden of eden story was cooked up (by babylonians btw). In the story it's a walking, talking snake. Whether you consider it the devil is a matter of framing IMO. There is certainly a parallel to be drawn between the apple and the gift of fire, and perhaps the snake and prometheus too, but to consider the snake to be the devil is IMO already interpretation.

Another interesting parallel is pandora's box, where pandora's curiosity tempts her to open the box, unleashing terrible evils on humanity. In both stories, the god(s) give a woman a tempting gift that can only end up hurting them.
Where does it say the fruit of knowledge was an apple?
 
Old 05-15-2012, 12:33 AM   #432
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Where does it say the fruit of knowledge was an apple?
Is that really the important detail? Would the symbolism of the story be grossly affected if the fruit were lychee or tomato?
 
Old 05-15-2012, 12:52 AM   #433
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by jamaca View Post
Sticking with the modern monothiems Judeo-Christian and Islamic faith. Mostly because the older religions are no longer relavent and most people including myself arn't very knowledgable to their details.

This thread is made in light of the religious arguements on morality made in some previous threads I would like to ask this question.



Does Religion teach morality? and if it does, do we need it to teach morality?

on the surface it may appear for the first part that the answer is yes. Religion does teach morality commandments like do not steal/murder and teaches kindness and forgiveness etc. Judging from history and their holy books many acts of obvious immorality and cruelty have been acted out.




word of god from the old testament



Word of jesus from the new testament



It's not hard to imagine what such 'objective' morality would have on people and there are plenty of evidence in history have religiously motivated genocide racism slavery and war.

What 'modern' Religions do is ignore the bad parts in the bible and cherry pick the god bits. All the morally wrong parts are either metaphors or morally correct in their context.

In order to cherry pick which parts are one must know what good and bad is. The fact that the scriptures are interperated in such dishonest ways are evidence of a different moral standard.

Our morality has evolved not because of religion but inspite of it.



this brings out my secound question, do we need religion to teach morality?

We know how 'out of context' these original teachers are in our current society, most of the immoral parts are filtered out of religious teaching (ignoring the obvious cases of terrorism anti semitism bombing of abortion clinics and denial of condoms for africans with aids), It leaves religious morality with any but an 'onjective' standard, most people know what is right and wrong, you dont need the scriptures to know this so why teach them?
You sir is stupid, Dont interpret religious words from books literally, If you can just do that why go to church? Why study to become a priest. Words in the Bible have meanings. So dont go with that bullshit
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:04 AM   #434
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You sir is stupid, Dont interpret religious words from books literally, If you can just do that why go to church? Why study to become a priest. Words in the Bible have meanings. So dont go with that bullshit
What a magnificently solid argument you have sir! [/irony]

First, when you interpret something not literally, you have to have external references, in the case of the bible, you have a knowledge of right and wrong that comes from society and allows you to recognize genocides as bad things and interpret them as metaphors in a good way.

Second, why would your interpretation of the bible be the good one? What about literallists, are they wrong?

And I'm curious of how you interpret the passage that clearly say that homosexuals must be killed.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:32 AM   #435
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You sir is stupid, Dont interpret religious words from books literally, If you can just do that why go to church? Why study to become a priest. Words in the Bible have meanings. So dont go with that bullshit
How convenient that an omnipotent being can't speak clearly or literally to his followers. It must be nice to have a monopoly on the real meaning behind his words. It must give the charlatans of the world a real sense of purpose in life.
 
Old 05-15-2012, 01:50 AM   #436
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I love when Christians try to bullshit their way with "don't take it literal" and forget the only argument that actually makes sense, namely that humans make mistakes with translation (it's kinda like a game of telephone, except on steroids) and no matter how hard you try not all words in languages can be described in other languages
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I'd say remove the stun from shackles and shes fine.


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Old 05-15-2012, 02:48 AM   #437
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
I love when Christians try to bullshit their way with "don't take it literal" and forget the only argument that actually makes sense, namely that humans make mistakes with translation (it's kinda like a game of telephone, except on steroids) and no matter how hard you try not all words in languages can be described in other languages
And the irony reaches higher levels when the same christians who say that the bible must not be taken literally adamantly assert that they know that there is a god, that jesus was on the cross exactly as in the bible and that he performed the miracles as written...

If the destruction of Sodom, the raping of women, slaying of children are just stories and metaphors, why can't jesus' be equally metaphorical and fictional?
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:07 AM   #438
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Royal_Naga View Post
Do you realize that, he posted that in this very page and up to now he was saying:

"Lol idiots I already say what is a christian, a christian is a person that acts like a christian"
Quote the post where I said that, please.

I said that a christian is supposed to act like one, just because you're too dumb and misinterpret one's words doesn't mean I actually said that.

To clear this bullshit up you made we could say a christian is someone who:

* has repented of his sins and has accepted Jesus as his lord and saviour. doomsheep also said this:
Quote:
you get baptised and accept jesus christ as your lord and savior and you're accepted.
which is correct for the most part.
* after doing the above thing, this person tries to live his life the way Jesus did. ie. this person follows what Jesus did. The whole term "christian" could be interpreted as "someone who follows the Christ", which is pretty much self-explanatory. What Jesus said, in a single quote: "love your neighbours as much as you love yourself". Which is just the golden rule said with other words.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwntlolz View Post
I love when Christians try to bullshit their way with "don't take it literal" and forget the only argument that actually makes sense, namely that humans make mistakes with translation (it's kinda like a game of telephone, except on steroids) and no matter how hard you try not all words in languages can be described in other languages
translation mistakes in the Bible are pretty much small and hardly noticeable if they exist. You can say about the 90% of the text is correct, thus the whole message has been delivered.

and yes, a lot of the things written in the Bible are actually literal, and the ones that aren't you can tell when they aren't.
 
Last edited by Star_Saber; 05-15-2012 at 04:29 AM.
Old 05-15-2012, 07:39 AM   #439
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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* has repented of his sins and has accepted Jesus as his lord and saviour. doomsheep also said this:
you replied with caps lock when i said that the first time. the second time you said you disagreed.

Quote:
which is correct for the most part.
* after doing the above thing, this person tries to live his life the way Jesus did. ie. this person follows what Jesus did. The whole term "christian" could be interpreted as "someone who follows the Christ", which is pretty much self-explanatory. What Jesus said, in a single quote: "love your neighbours as much as you love yourself". Which is just the golden rule said with other words.
WWJD is a common idea. this definition would make your club less exclusive.

pretty sure he never told anyone to copy himself.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:06 AM   #440
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Default Re: Morality without religion

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Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
translation mistakes in the Bible are pretty much small and hardly noticeable if they exist. You can say about the 90% of the text is correct, thus the whole message has been delivered.
To all those with aid to give and to share, give your aid to all the children in the world.
20 words. let's make 1 word misinterpreted, so 90% of the text is correct:
to all those with aids to give and to share, give your aids to all the children in the world.

So now, instead of giving aid to the needy children, you'll have people like you giving aids to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
and yes, a lot of the things written in the Bible are actually literal, and the ones that aren't you can tell when they aren't.
Oh really.
Then how come there isn't a list where everything is divided into the categories the belong to?
How can you live with yourself, knowing that someone is misinterpreting the holy message?
How can you stand idle, and not make that list yourself, and declare it the one true interpretation?


Once you do that, you'll have to convince everyone. And those who don't conform you must deem non-christian, and should they keep preaching about their wrong god to your innocent people, you will have to kill them, or otherwise prevent them from spreading misinformation.

Make the list. You seem to know the right parts, make the list for those who don't. If you don't you are deliberately not doing so, so all the deaths that happen because you didn't make the list, are on you.
 
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