Is the Earth overpopulated? Hunger a rising issue?

[Grubi]

Meat is healthy and is required for nutrition

As the Hardvard study has shown red meat is not healthy even if you eat small unprocessed amounts.

Again if we had to eat meat vegans would be extinct by now and you have no evidence to support such claims. Also I am pretty certain you can survive eating just raw fish like many shipwreckers have for months.

You should check out videos and testemonies from people on this diet, and especially bodybuilders who can build muscle mass as good as other bodybuilders while requiring lower calory intake and excercise time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbEUH...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dM1iU5e33k

I think it's better to see for yourself that raw vegan lifestlye is viable and then go researching how much better it is then me linking studies that probably won't change your mind.

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Mazoku

Exactly, and were exactly is that study?

We might as well say that raw vegans have the worst health in the entire planet.

Fact is, meat-only consuption is way worse than vegan diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Health_arguments

Originally Posted by Grubi

As the Hardvard study has shown red meat is not healthy even if you eat small unprocessed amounts.

Again if we had to eat meat vegans would be extinct by now and you have no evidence to support such claims. Also I am pretty certain you can survive eating just raw fish like many shipwreckers have for months.

Our body is made to eat meat too, and generally, it's an easier source of certain things we need in our diet. Most humans don't have the luxury to be vegans, for health and monetary reasons.

[fr0zenknife]

Originally Posted by Grubi

As the Hardvard study has shown red meat is not healthy even if you eat small unprocessed amounts.

Again if we had to eat meat vegans would be extinct by now and you have no evidence to support such claims. Also I am pretty certain you can survive eating just raw fish like many shipwreckers have for months.

You should check out videos and testemonies from people on this diet, and especially bodybuilders who can build muscle mass as good as other bodybuilders while requiring lower calory intake and excercise time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbEUH...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dM1iU5e33k

I think it's better to see for yourself that raw vegan lifestlye is viable and then go researching how much better it is then me linking studies that probably won't change your mind.

It is unhealthy, if being fat is unhealthy, why aren't fats extinct yet?

By the way that study is about eating high amounts of red meat, we are not carnivores, and we need to eat both vegetative food and meat, not eat one overwhelmingly more.

Besides, i don't even care if it was slightly less healthy. You are the one to say to eating meat is dangerous and kills, and it's inefficient.

I'll eat according to my taste, i consider how unhealthy it is and weight it out on how tasty it is.

Living is not about how long you can live. I rather be dead than live doing things i do not like for the sake of living longer.

[Grubi]

Most humans don't have the luxury to be vegans, for health and monetary reasons.

The only monetary reason I can think of is that in big cities it's cheaper to buy a burger in a city then a salad or something when outside. When cooking local vegan food is cheaper then meat, or in desert places where edible plants are scarce and people must resort to eating meat and products from animals who can eat them.

And people go on vegan and vegetarian diets to become healthier, not other way around.

It is unhealthy, if being fat is unhealthy, why aren't fats extinct yet?

That's argument sounds like something Inreet would say

I'll eat according to my taste, i consider how unhealthy it is and weight it out on how tasty it is.

You don't have to defend yourself just because I prove you wrong. I was trying to inform you.

[Mazoku]

Fact is, meat-only consuption is way worse than vegan diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Health_arguments

Ho cares?

I just wanted to know how he knew that vegans are the healthiest people in the world. How exactly consuming any amount of meat afect your health?

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Grubi

The only monetary reason I can think of is that in big cities it's cheaper to buy a burger in a city then a salad or something when outside. When cooking local vegan food is cheaper then meat, or in desert places where edible plants are scarce and people must resort to eating meat and products from animals who can eat them.

I base my opinions on the fact that when i go to a supermarket, meat products are ALWAYS cheaper.

Originally Posted by Grubi

And people go on vegan and vegetarian diets to become healthier, not other way around.

The healthiest diet (and the most balanced imo) is the Mediterranean.

Originally Posted by Grubi

That's argument sounds like something Inreet would say

And yet, you made a similar arguement.

[Grubi]

I base my opinions on the fact that when i go to a supermarket, meat products are ALWAYS cheaper.

DAMN YOU CREDIBLE HULK

Also vegetables in supermarkets are overpriced, There are enough farmer/green markets in every bigger city. Finding something that is 50% cheaper is not uncommon.

[fr0zenknife]

Originally Posted by Grubi

The only monetary reason I can think of is that in big cities it's cheaper to buy a burger in a city then a salad or something when outside. When cooking local vegan food is cheaper then meat, or in desert places where edible plants are scarce and people must resort to eating meat and products from animals who can eat them.

And people go on vegan and vegetarian diets to become healthier, not other way around.



That's argument sounds like something Inreet would say



You don't have to defend yourself just because I prove you wrong. I was trying to inform you.

You didn't prove anything wrong, you just proved a diet heavy on meat has higher chance of disease. I wasn't defending myself, now i am.

You are the one to say we should stop eating meat, and limit people. I don't give a single fuck on what you eat, or how healthy it is. If you are trying to apply your preference as fact, and limit other people's freedom. You are crossing the line.

By the way statistics numbers on already low number is just tricking people. Eating only vegetation could have %2 mortality rate, and heavy meat consumption could have %4 mortality rate, oh shit it is %200 increase.

I already know what i do if i wanted to live longer eating things i didn't even like.

Originally Posted by Grubi

That's argument sounds like something Inreet would say

Oh, let me clue you in. Vegans are not species, it is an eating habit, and doesn't effect rest of the specimen. Like being fat, i am not talking about genetics of course, because there is no genetic vegan, as far as i know.

All vegans alive today could die tomorrow, if a new born baby decides to be a vegetarian, vegetarians still exist. Do you understand? Do you even know how extinction works in a huge variety of individuals as humans, specially if it is a choice based lifestyle that doesn't effect it's offspring?

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Grubi

Also vegetables in supermarkets are overpriced, There are enough farmer/green markets where in every bigger city

I don't disagree, i am just saying, cheap meat is way more accesible.

Also, i still think, but don't certainly know, that a 100% meat-free (healthy) diet would be more expensive that the alternative.

[Grubi]

The study I linked also investigated eating only small amounts of unprocessed red meat. 14% percent greater risk of dying from cancer or heart disease just by doing that maybe isn't too big a deal but it still proves that eating meat is dangerous.

Do you even know how extinction works in a huge variety of individuals as humans, specially if it is a choice based lifestyle that doesn't effect it's offspring?

Do you not know that by leading unhealthy lifestyle and living in pulluted enviroment we are damaging our DNA which affects our offsprings?

I have proven that meat industry creates huge pollution, makes inefficient use of space and creates hunger by wasting 5 times more food then it produces.

If you are trying to apply your preference as fact, and limit other people's freedom. You are crossing the line.

Where did I say we must stop eating meat? I have only said that it would be benefical for everyone.

I just wanted to know how he knew that vegans are the healthiest people in the world. How exactly consuming any amount of meat afect your health?

The most notable things is that eating cooked food causes buildup of waste and sludge in your bowels which lower your ability to absorb nutrients and cause poisoning over longer periods of time. Because of that most people are feeling sick as they get older, any why there are so many popular detoxication methods.

Raw eaters have to eat a lot less food then other people who don't detoxify on regular basis because their system is not clogged. Most people in western world have clogged bowels because they eat mostly cooked and baked food.
And no I'm not bullshiting, just because it's accepted that we have to eat certain amount of food to survive doesn't meant it's true
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dM1iU5e33k&t=9m0s

This is one of the reasons why I think mediterian diet is not better, because it includes thermally prepared food and diary products.

I don't eat meat and eat mostly fresh vegetables with some bread with ocassional yoghurt and I spend 50% less money on food then before like many vegetarians do.

Ask anything you want now, I will meet up with vegan friends who have a lot more knowledge about raw and vegan nutrition then me so that I can write a decent post instead of small bits.

[Lycan]

Originally Posted by Mousatos

I don't disagree, i am just saying, cheap meat is way more accesible.

Also, i still think, but don't certainly know, that a 100% meat-free (healthy) diet would be more expensive that the alternative.

if we all stopped eating meat but grasshoppers(grown not freecatch) instead, the ratio of grain to enzyms would be a lot less straining for our planet.

However there's enough food on the planet but humans created something called money. Some countries don't have enough food to feed their people not due to a lack of food on this planet but due to a lack of money which is an creation of the mind and only holds any value as long as people agree to it having any value.

[Pwntlolz]

Originally Posted by Grubi

It is cheaper to feed livestock with fodder (mostly corn) because it's cheap and easy to transport.

Maybe in mass produced shitty meat places but I get the majority of my meat from small vermont farms where cows graze on grass and aren't penned up shoulder to shoulder.

Livestock is responsible for around 14% of greenhouse emission which is only about 50% of car pollution, however in areas where they are bread their pollution exceeds car pollution by far, that was my point.

What's your point? That massive slaughterhouses for Mcdonalds and price choppers suck? No shit.

The thing is we are already working on reducing emissions from from cars and it is decreasing but emission from animal gasses in increasing because demand for meat is increasing

"The Argentine researchers say that the slow digestive system of the cows causes them to produce these large amounts of methane. Now, the scientists are performing trials of new diets designed to improve the cows´ digestion and reduce global warming. By feeding cows clover and alfalfa instead of grain, "you can reduce methane emissions by 25 percent," according to Silvia Valtorta of the National Council of Scientific and Technical Investigations."
http://phys.org/news135003243.html
You're not getting people to stop eating meat, it just won't happen. So no, the next logical step is to not stop eating meat.

though it was just to point out that we don't need meat to survive, be it 60 or 6000 years ago

Next up: Could swearing more often lead to more vulgar phrases spoken per day? More with the 10 o clock news.

From Harvard School of Public Health study on 120k people
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/pre...mortality.html

What exactly do you want me to do with that study?
I already answered a lot of questions about meat consumption and dangers. Correlation does not imply causation. High meat diets from eating 10 big macs a day leading to cardiovascular problems? YOU DON'T SAY?

Meat is the problem as proven by the study. You are in 13% greater risk of dying by eating only small amounts of unprocessed red meat, and the number skyrockets the more and less quality meat you eat.

I'm hardly worried about 13% more likelihood of death considering that I will die no matter what. See above for details.

Of course you don't have any problems when you are active and young, people dying from heart diseased and cancer are older people with lowered physical activity.

So you're basically admitting it's a lifestyle problem?

Raw vegan diet is our natural diet and is the best possible diet for us, any kind of food preparation that involves thermal processing is bad for that matter (so eating raw meat is also a good way to reduce meat intake because you get more calories and other things from the same weight)

I can't take you seriously

[Mazoku]

The study I linked also investigated eating only small amounts of unprocessed red meat. 14% percent greater risk of dying from cancer or heart disease just by doing that maybe isn't too big a deal but it still proves that eating meat is dangerous.

It doesnt actualy prove it. It is just a very vague article that says that ingesting overwhelming amounts of red meat decreases your life span.

I have proven that meat industry creates huge pollution, makes inefficient use of space and creates hunger by wasting 5 times more food then it produces.

I do know a thing or two about the impact of agriculture. When comparing something you need to look it from both perspectives. Crops remove tons of minerals from the land and require to be harvested and planted (and guess what this are used for http://www.viarural.com.ar/viarural....ora-cr9060.jpg).

BTW: What is that about ineficient space?

[Grubi]

I can't take you seriously

Cooking destroyes food. Proteins coagulate at 42 degrees. They stick together and it becomes harder for our digestive system to process them and food's actual nutritious value drops. Enzimes and vitamines will be destroyed at higher temperatures and this proof that eating cooked food is unhealthy if you can eat it uncooked.

Herbs are rich in fibers and help with getting rid of all that trash from bowels, while if you eat a lot of meat it just stacks up and causes poisoning.

So you're basically admitting it's a lifestyle problem?

I never said it's not, I said that eating meat is bad no matter how much you eat it. And I'm saying you have a problem though the chance for you to be damaged is very slim because your body is strong enough to fight against poisoning.

overwhelming amounts

20 grams per day is nowhere near overwhelming.

There is a reason why it's recommended for very old people to stop eating meat and they are encouraged to eat vegan food don't you think?

Next up: Could swearing more often lead to more vulgar phrases spoken per day? More with the 10 o clock news.

Implying that our nutritious needs can change over 6k years

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Grubi

Implying that our nutritious needs can change over 6k years

Nutritious habits, yes. Nutritious needs, no.

Also, noone pointed out that cooking food is not only for taste. There is that. And:

Meat has a higher energy density than vegetables, and cooking it allows more nutrients to be liberated to the body, the introduction of cooked meat in the human diet reduced the energy requirements of the digestive system.

The increases in human brain-size occurred due to a shift away from the consumption of nuts and berries to the consumption of meat

Eating meat is essential to our evolution. (Or was. And maybe still is, we don't know) And cooking helped.

Also, health reasons, very important:

When heat is used in the preparation of food, it can kill or inactivate potentially harmful organisms, such as bacteria and viruses, as well as various parasites such as tapeworms and Toxoplasma gondii. Food poisoning and other illness from uncooked or poorly-prepared food may be caused by bacteria such as pathogenic strains of Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhimurium and Campylobacter, viruses such as noroviruses, and protozoa such as Entamoeba histolytica. Parasites may be introduced through salad, meat that is uncooked or done rare, and unboiled water.

You have a point, raw foods are better when raw, nutrition-wise and as as far as the benefits they give goes.

BUT
Cooking food advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
I assume you think avoiding immediate health risks from not cooking food are reason enough to risk future ones.

Also, it tastes better.
Source.

[Mazoku]

20 grams per day is nowhere near overwhelming.

One serving = 2-3 oz.
1 oz = ~35g
0,5 servings = ~50g.

The researchers estimated that 9.3% of deaths in men and 7.6% in women could have been prevented at the end of the follow-up if all the participants had consumed less than 0.5 servings per day of red meat.

I would asume that those 50g are the minimum and going lower than that would have not have modified the numbers at all. It is more than likely that even if you move double those 50g the amount of "estimated" deaths that could have been prevented would not have vary. But hey, they probably needed the shock factor... and because there is no real evidence on that link there i will never know.

Still, 50g per day of red meat alone as a OMFG LOWEST AMOUNT I CAN POSIBLY POST is quite high.

It doesnt prove the point that vegetarians have the best health in the world. If anything it proves that eating red meat is harmless unless you ingest exeptionals amounts (wich can be said for any kind of diet).
Thx for the paper though...

[Pwntlolz]

Originally Posted by Grubi

Cooking destroyes food. Proteins coagulate at 42 degrees. They stick together and it becomes harder for our digestive system to process them and food's actual nutritious value drops. Enzimes and vitamines will be destroyed at higher temperatures and this proof that eating cooked food is unhealthy if you can eat it uncooked.

The only notable vitamin that loses the ability to absorb as well is vitamin C, and that's hardly a problem.

Some nutrients are destroyed by cooking, most noticeably Vitamin C. But not everything we eat is cooked, and it's not difficult to get plenty of these nutrients with the amount of raw food we do it.

The problem with the "raw food" concept is thinking that if some is good, then more must be better. As long as you're getting enough vitamin C in your diet, it doesn't really matter if you get more of it. You can eat all the cooked food you want and it doesn't destroy the vitamin C you get from other sources.

The "enzymes" in raw food are dramatically overstated. Our body produces its own enzymes, and doesn't need it from external sources. Most enzymes that we do eat are digested as proteins rather than put to work biochemically.

There is still plenty of nutrition in cooked food, and in some ways it's better nutrition. Cooking kills the bacteria and other parasites living in meat and on the surfaces of some vegetables. Many foods can't be eaten at all in their raw state: beans, potatoes, wheat. You can sprout the wheat, but in doing so you're changing proteins and destroying enzymes, which cooking also does.

Raw food diets always involve considerable processing: chopping, grinding, etc. to make it possible to eat them. One argument for raw food is that it's supposed to be the way our evolutionary ancestors ate, but our ancestors didn't process their food, either. And they also died by age 40, so they didn't have to deal with the way raw food slowly wears away teeth.

We do require some raw foods in our diet, and nutritional supplements to compensate aren't really as good. But claiming that we should eat ONLY raw food strains belief.

while if you eat a lot of meat it just stacks up and causes poisoning.

I eat a lot of meat and I'm not poisoned, go figure.

I never said it's not, I said that eating meat is bad no matter how much you eat it.

How do you define "bad?"
You said that by eating meat I have an 113% of dying rather than an 100% chance, boo hoo. You have yet to show how the connection is through causation and not simply correlation, because the link did not point to any causation. No shit more fat people are going to not be vegetarians, but that doesn't make meat "bad."

And I'm saying you have a problem though the chance for you to be damaged is very slim because your body is strong enough to fight against poisoning.

Then why should I be worried at all.

20 grams per day is nowhere near overwhelming.

I pointed out the failure of your study before. Fat people eat lots of food, especially lots of hamburgers.

There is a reason why it's recommended for very old people to stop eating meat and they are encouraged to eat vegan food don't you think?

What very old people have been encouraged to do such a thing, exactly?

Implying that our nutritious needs can change over 6k years

The fuck are you talking about? I pointed out how beyond stupid it is to say that vegetarians don't die or "go extinct" (holy shit is science education in croatia that poor?)

[Mazoku]

You have yet to show how the connection is through causation and not simply correlation, because the link did not point to any causation.

Well i didnt want to go there because the results on that link are not alarming at all. However you have a good point.
Vegetarians often have better health than non-vegetarians because in order to be a vegetarian you need to have some sort of knowlage in terms of nutririon, the comparison then becomes unfair.

[TwoHourMotel]

WTF, dude pure vegans (no milk/eggs either) have one of the worst diets ever. Article.

Vegans lack essential proteins and vitamins found in meat, that's why they have to rely on Supplements

I hate vegans, they usually end up being smug bastards.

[Grubi]

Article

Sure post an article about uninformed people doing stupid shit to prove your point.

About supplements:

The only supplement vegans have to take is vitamin D and that is only if they live in near arctic areas where there is not enough sun.
Everything else can be obitained trough food and number of vegans that take supplements is pretty low.

Vegetarians often have better health than non-vegetarians because in order to be a vegetarian you need to have some sort of knowlage in terms of nutririon, the comparison then becomes unfair.

I'm sure that people who study nutrition and ditch meat to live healthier has nothing to do with them actually being healthier, they do it to be edgy and cool even though they could live as healthy by eating meat.