Original heroes

[ralje]

actually it's not for balance as in dota2 you can get it, but it works on the first creep you hit only.

[Mumbo-Jumbo]

Originally Posted by ralje

actually it's not for balance as in dota2 you can get it, but it works on the first creep you hit only.

I remember that kunkka was able to use it when it came out.

Workarround for DotA to get the same as in DotA2:
-Make a 10 level ability providing 10/20/30...%, and a ability providing 1/2/3...%.
-When a unit gets attacked, set the cleave down to the fitting numbers. To calculate this, you have to check how many battlefurys are in kunkkas inventory/check for the magnusbuff.

[microlipse]

Some opinion here

First, thanks Mumbo Jumbo for pointing out some really great benefits that Wc3 engine has. I was a fan of this engine and u see, the capabilities of this engine is incredible after 10 years. I have to say the old Bliz had go way beyond what the technology had to offer at that moment (the old Bliz, that is)

However, afaik, all your suggestions of reworking Dota 1 to have the advance functions are all WORKAROUND. And the results, although very close to what currently in Dota2, are not exactly the same as those in Dota 2. They are just acceptable, they are not excellent and innovative, and we need innovations for Dota 2

We need a better tool, for better performance and less work spent. For ex, (i'm not a wc3 engine nerd, but yeah just an ex), u mentioned that in order to have vector targeting, u will have to have the whole IF team to rework EVERY SINGLE scripts, and then there are bugs to fix, too. What if the Source engine can do that with half the time, half the number of people, and give out the same or even better results? It's the efficiency that matters

Real-life example, why do we have to do the traditional fire-lighting technique of rubbing tree branches, when we have matches and zippers? Why we have to fire up a bunch of woods in order to cook, when we have electric stoves or gas stoves and bunches of other high-tech things that are designed specifically for cooking, which give out the same, if not better, results?

Also Dota 2 is free, you don't have to pay anything more to enjoy the game and its benefits. Then why not?

Sry for my bad english

[Takesis]

Just a bit of gripe, I can see a bit of the threadstarter's (even if its Kaiverrettu) point.

Almost the recent heroes for the past 2 years has a version of an aiming skill, whose theme generally is aim, nuke, disable and some sort of passive.

You can feel the difference when Neichus, Terrorblaze and Guinsoo were creating the map.
Meathook was never seen before Pudge got implemented. So was Shadowraze. Axe's theme of 'come at me bro'. Earthshaker's playstyle, Sandking's combo. Ogre magi.

And look at the heroes after that. Mirana (aim, nuke, disable), Puck (aim, nuke, disable), Windrunner (aim, nuke, disable), Rattletrap, (aim, nuke, disable).
Dragonus and Shredder, (aim, nuke, nuke). Every single one of them have aiming abilities that seems to limit the hero design.

We could explore some themes that has not been explored before.
Like, Heroes with:
All skills have no cooldowns.
Attacking while running (ultimate chaser).
Sonic the hedgehog like skill, (Like Tuskar's snowball, but you can control where he rolls)
Terrain relevant skills.
Innate abilities (already has a skill on selection(one of the furious topics before, largely forgotten))
Rage(WoW) based mana.
Siege mode (Sidereal engine!)
Mechanic (has a unit that team can spend gold to upgrade instead of spending for items)
Mechanical armor (no regen, but can repair self for gold and immune to most spells)
Pure support, no attack (ummm..., maybe not this)
Panic mode skill (all players loose control of all units for a certain amount of time)
And of course
Wall of text!

Well, now that Neichus is back, one can only hope for something new.

See what he came up with a Drow remake with just 2 hours of brainstorming

Originally Posted by Neichus

I'm in the camp that hopes for a revamp.

She's a very old hero who hasn't been changed much over time. However, I think one should be careful when approaching an overhaul because you don't necessarily want to change her so much that she's unrecognizable. Also, she is an introductory hero so you don't want to go giving her abilities tooltips like AA's ultimate.

Frost Arrows are a good place to start; they're an iconic aspect of her, since honestly right now orb walking is one of her few skills. Silence is powerful and would be nice to work in, but not sure if I'd consider it core to her playstyle. TSA and Marksmanship are utterly bland and could be removed with no harm to her enjoyment (as long as she still did enough damage).

With that in mind, I'd imagine something like:

Frost Arrows
Fire a freezing arrow at the target, slowing their movement speed by 30% for 2.5 seconds. If the target is hit by 3 consecutive Frost Arrows they are silenced and rooted in place for .75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds. 1 second cooldown.

-I imagine something like how the Shadow Demon and Batrider have numbers above their target's head, so you can see when they will be frozen.
-The cooldown is in place so that a late-game Drow can't simply perma-disable a target with a high attack speed.

Familiar
Summon a bird familiar to scout the area, giving you unobstructed vision of the surrounding area for 20 seconds. While your familiar is active your attacks cannot miss. 60/50/40/30 second cooldown. Gives 1200/1500/1800/2100 vision range.

-You do not control your familiar. It is merely a graphical representation that you can see the area.
-Allows the Drow to see past trees and up ramps, as well as negating dodge effects in a fashion similar to the MKB.
-This is not True Sight and does not pierce invisibility.

Trueshot (passive)
Gives the Drow Ranger an 11%/14%/17%/20% chance to fire two arrows when attacking.

-If the triggering attack was a Frost Arrow then the second arrow fired will also be a Frost Arrow. This is from both manually casting and auto-cast.

Markswoman (passive, Ultimate)
Increases the range of the Drow Ranger's attacks by 75/150/225. However, the damage dealt beyond 625 range is reduced. Passively adds 10/20/30 Agility.

-The damage reduction is calculated based on the locations of the Drow and her target when the projectile is fired, not on impact.
-Damage reduction scales smoothly from 90% and 25% between 625 range (her base) and her new max. This means she will be able to do more damage to targets as she levels up her ultimate.

With this version I'm trying to create a hero which fits the old theme reasonably well. She is still relatively simple, relying on orb walking and right-clicking for kills. Still isn't a major escape artist, instead relying on her superior knowledge of the surroundings and long range slowing capacity to prevent being ganked as easily. I tried to also make Trueshot more engaging/thematic as it interacts with the Frost Arrows to rapidly deliver an extra stack to the target (rather than simply being Critical Strike). And finally her familiar gives her an edge against certain heroes who rely on dodge to counteract physical damage.

[E02K]

Originally Posted by patrishosho

Idk
I remember some hero suggestion a long time ago.
If I remembered correctly it used a green juggernaut model.
the first skill was like bara's aura but AS version.

ofc it was me.

[patrishosho]

Originally Posted by E02K

ofc it was me.

Finaly found it!

had a hard time looking for it.
It was from your old acc thats why.

Awesome concept with some uncodable stuffs.

[Domenico]

Originally Posted by RagnarokVIP

Thanks mate, you made my day .

OT: Dota 2 is not about removing the limitations of w3 but to finally give IceFrog some credit n money for his work and ease his job and to finally gather the dota community on one client.

Finally. However, there's another thing about migrating to Source, it's the fact that it's easier to work with for developers. As far as it goes, this benefits players as well.

Other than that, nice to know about possibilities of applied Jass.

The real problem with "unique heroes" is actually figuring out things that are all in one unique, interesting, balanced, fitting DotA. So you can start brainstorming the issue now as for now you still have all tools for your task.

[E02K]

Originally Posted by patrishosho

Finaly found it!

had a hard time looking for it.
It was from your old acc thats why.

Awesome concept with some uncodable stuffs.

thx. the first pro feedback i ever had.

[Kaiverrettu]

Originally Posted by patrishosho

Finaly found it!

had a hard time looking for it.
It was from your old acc thats why.

Awesome concept with some uncodable stuffs.

A original heroe doesn't need a set of mis-mash spells/effects that are hard to read,dechiper and make little to no sense.

In short, that's not original, that's like Barahtrum in reverse.

So I say now what I have already said in this thread: You can do almost everything in WC3, only imagination is the limit. Original hero doesn't mean it's just one or two original skills. It can be a whole hero concept go just very well together like puck or the earth-shaker. Even huskar punch is a standard critical strike but has a couple of extra effects to make it unique and more FUN to play.

[kuskos]

well if shredder/xin wasn't enough originality for you, I suggest you quit your whining. I dare you to say what kind of hero concept is original by your standards that is not somewhat similar to the other heroes in the pool,

really the posts recently in DC have been degrading, its always about someone whining about new maps/heroes, heroes ported to dota 2, losing, or beta keys

[DrFrank]

Kaiverrettu, instead of posting random crap just tell me what heroes you have a problem with (or which recent additions to DotA are "unoriginal") and I'll refute.

[Y-O-D-A]

How do people always fall for his troll threads.... I mean really, he said thrall was an unoriginal hero, you know one of the most original heroes in the game. Put up heroes like disruptor and any old int heroes, and disruptor is easily the most unique/original concept out there. Same with shredder. The game is obviously getting more original, rather than unoriginal over time. Example, the specter/pitlord/mirana(I think?) patch compared to the most recent one.

[Kaiverrettu]

Originally Posted by DrFrank

Kaiverrettu, instead of posting random crap just tell me what heroes you have a problem with (or which recent additions to DotA are "unoriginal") and I'll refute.

I've already said it in my previous replies. Don't you read? Skywrath and Thrall are in particular subjects of my criticism.

Rubick is like 50/50 wether it's bad or not. Spellsteal can be fun, but 1.5 str gain and other shitty/boring/unoriginal spells make him much more uninteresting and boring to play.

Also, my messages are far from "random crap."

How do people always fall for his troll threads.... I mean really, he said thrall was an unoriginal hero, you know one of the most original heroes in the game

You kidding me right?

- Standard caster/nuker hero. Seen it many times in the past.
- Forced synergy between field and ulti
- Too much of one theme is never good for you. All of his 4 spells seem to be lightning themed.
- Glimpse is boring as fuck.

All this wasted on a cool, perhaps one of most anticipated hero models ever in DotA, Thrall. What I was excepting was a cool caster/nuker hero with some ultimate wich summons wolves or earthquakes or something similar or "shamanistic" like that. He even had the nerve to change the name from "Far Seer" to "Disruptor" to fit more the retarted paradigm of striving away from the original badass warcraft themed heroes, even though heroes like TC were very well accepted in the past as unique and original, despite befitting their original WC3 counteraparts somewhat.

[Mumbo-Jumbo]

Hej.
Thanks for the answers, i'm glad that i were able to deffend wc3 against the image of the "dying cow". I understand why the step to DotA2 was done, but i'm probably going to stick with DotA-
and hope that it will get developed on for a while, or that it even gets overtaken by somebody/opensource when icefrog stops to do it.

Originally Posted by E02K

thx. the first pro feedback i ever had.

Since i said that actually everything is codeable:

To be done right, it would require a list including all buffs/debuffs/items/etc. that modify his attacks - unlikely to be done imho.

To do it with a workarround, you could create 2 dummy units in some edge of the map, one as a imitation of the hero, one as a target, with a high amount of hp/no armor or damagereduction. Check the hero for aura-buffs/debuffs and add the abilities according onto the duplicate or (in case of a debuff) onto the dummyunit.
Cast the atropos dmg reduction and/or the tidehunter ability onto the heroe if he wears the buff.
Order the duplicate to attack the dummyunit.
If the dummyunit recieves dmg, remove the duplicate.
Check the HP of the dummyunit.
Remove the dummyunit.
Set the new attackspeed to the Hero.
And redo this in short intervals.

Not uncomplicated, but actually doable

[Unfawkable]

This troll is still around? The heroes implemented are awesome and original, since 6.32 there have been only 2, maybe 3 that are a bit more dull.

/thread

[Y-O-D-A]

Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu

All this wasted on a cool, perhaps one of most anticipated hero models ever in DotA, Thrall. What I was excepting was a cool caster/nuker hero with some ultimate wich summons wolves or earthquakes or something similar or "shamanistic" like that. He even had the nerve to change the name from "Far Seer" to "Disruptor" to fit more the retarted paradigm of striving away from the original badass warcraft themed heroes, even though heroes like TC were very well accepted in the past as unique and original, despite still befitting their original WC3 counteraparts somewhat.

I usually try not to respond to you, it's bad to feed the trolls and whatnot, but lets just summarize this. Thrall is unoriginal because he isn't a copied concept from wc3 ladder (wolves, earthquake, etc). Amazing. Sounds to me like you had preconceptions about what thrall should have been, and then got butthurt when he wasn't as you imagined. This has nothing to do with his originality.

As I said previously, the game is getting more original rather than unoriginal. Take any patch from guinsoo's years, and any from the old icefrog patches, and compare them to this one. Disruptor's concept and synergy blows them out of the water.

[DrFrank]

Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu

Skywrath, Thrall come to mind. Rubick doesn't feel original as a concept: he is just some mish-mash of random spells and then spellsteal given to him as a cherry topping of an already bad-tasting cake.

Thrall. What about him is unoriginal? Glimpse is 1 of 5 skills that I can think of on the spot that manipulate enemy positioning (X Marks the Spot, Vacuum, Toss, Telekinesis) and none of them match up to Glimpse. Thunderstrike is your basic single-target nuke that can potentially hit surrounding targets and provides vision. I can't think of any related ability. Kinetic Field is one of 4 abilities that form a solid obstacle on the map (Fissure, Power Cogs, Sprout). Static Storm is an extended AoE damage and silence ability. It synergises directly with his other abilities, and there is no parallel for it in the game.

Rubick has a generic bouncing nuke (with an added -dmg effect), but this is one reason that makes him a viable pick. This makes him stronger than SD and Thrall whose abilities won't allow them to push or farm as quick as Rubick in most circumstances. For Telekinesis, see above. One of very few position manipulating skills, and a stun thrown in as bonus! How is it unoriginal? It seems unoriginal since it doesn't do more but considering its not a simple point-click stun/damage ability like most others, it can hardly be considered unoriginal. Null Field is Spell Shield for the whole team. How many other heroes can buff up your ally against magic damage?? We have heals and shit, sure, but no other spell damage reduction ability (with Wisp's exception maybe). Spell Steal. Not even gonna explain this one.

EDIT:
I think your problem is that the new heroes and their abilities aren't as flashy as you expected. I'll just inform IceFrog to add more bells and whistles in the next patch and that should hopefully satisfy you.

[Kaiverrettu]

Originally Posted by Y-O-D-A

I usually try not to respond to you, it's bad to feed the trolls and whatnot, but lets just summarize this. Thrall is unoriginal because he isn't a copied concept from wc3 ladder (wolves, earthquake, etc). Amazing. Sounds to me like you had preconceptions about what thrall should have been, and then got butthurt when he wasn't as you imagined. This has nothing to do with his originality.

I guess you lack some reading comprehension or ability, not that it comes as a surprise, most of you folks over here at playdota.com seem to be doing not so well in that regard.

So no, that is definetely NOT what I meant. I suggest you take some literature course or learn to read becouse that was definetely NOT what I just said.

Thrall. What about him is unoriginal? Glimpse is 1 of 5 skills that I can think of on the spot that manipulate enemy positioning (X Marks the Spot, Vacuum, Toss, Telekinesis) and none of them match up to Glimpse.

Glimpse is almost like x-marks the spot in reverse. It's very, very unoriginal.

Thunderstrike is your basic single-target nuke that can potentially hit surrounding targets and provides vision. I can't think of any related ability.

350 nuke with slight AoE potential. There are loads of abilities like this.

Kinetic Field is one of 4 abilities that form a solid obstacle on the map (Fissure, Power Cogs, Sprout). Static Storm is an extended AoE damage and silence ability. It synergises directly with his other abilities, and there is no parallel for it in the game.

Forced synergy with his ultimate. That's why.

[DrFrank]

Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu

Glimpse is almost like x-marks the spot in reverse. It's very, very unoriginal.

First, let me laugh. Done. It is not X Marks The Spot in reverse. I'm just gonna assume you don't play with Thrall on a regular basis, and unless you try to argue again that these abilities are the same I'll consider Glimpse settled.

Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu

350 nuke with slight AoE potential. There are loads of abilities like this.

Please post your own ability here that is a nuke and completely original. Or list single-target, AoE abilities that give sight.

Originally Posted by Kaiverrettu

Forced synergy with his ultimate. That's why.

What the holy hell fuck is wrong with forced synergy? ES has forced synergy between Totem and Aftershock yet I don't see anyone complaining about that particular synergy. And please use your sense, how are you supposed to use an extended AoE silence ability if your opponents can simply run away? Riki has slow with his smoke, and Thrall has Kinetic Field. Also, you only stated "forced synergy" as a reason for being "unoriginal". Since when is forced synergy unoriginal?? In that case since Rubick has no particular synergy he must be completely original! But wait, you said he had mish-mash random spells!! So now you're contradicting yourself, just pick whether synergy is or is not unoriginal.

[teebeelol]

yea, why dont thrall just has a 600% manareg aura, it would be so damn gud and original, current one is unoriginal and doesnt make any sense YES.
































ahueahhueueuahuehuahuehuehauheuehaheue omfg