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Old 02-10-2013, 04:23 PM   #81
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Default Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroes?


I like more flavours in my Dota. If there were to be a 20-30 hero ARTS/MOBA, that would be a good idea for a totally new game.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:27 PM   #82
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by DrFrank~ View Post
Is Nexus War that browser game developed by jorm? Or was his name Gaijin Harris?
Uh... Apparently, there is in fact a "Nexus War" browser based game, but it appears to have shut down

I was referring to the SC2 UMS Nexus Wars though, which has been popular since SC2 beta, and is just derived from an ancient BW UMS. It's an example of a highly repetitive game that's been popular for a very long time

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

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Oh, really? How big is the playerbase? How active is the forums if there is any?

Shit I still play tides of blood, but there's no one to play with anymore. Oh, sure, the small following composed of twenty people called "CLAN_WHATEVER"

Stupid argument right here, dunno why I replied.

Of course people still play random warcraft maps, same logic applies for every other game that still exists in the world. I'll play that stupid E.T. game if I had a copy of it just for the sake of nostalgia.
If you think that raw number of players = game quality, then you're already looking in the wrong place with Dota
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
The game has changed a lot from it's inception, and there hasn't been some kind of mass exodus of the majority of Dota players all at once
Because we don't really have numbers for how big the dota playerbase is. We can only assume that it's as big as x, but we really can't specify it.

Well, maybe for DotA 2 it's possible, but majority of dota players still cling onto dota 1. I mean, you can't say no to this, if it isn't true then Dota 2 wouldn't be filled with interracial nutbrained noobs.

Added: tyru, why not reply to my post about the fanservice? Especially that part about the +1 thingy with the dcapitalized sentence afterwards.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:31 PM   #84
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
The game has changed a lot from it's inception, and there hasn't been some kind of mass exodus of the majority of Dota players all at once
Well since there is no massive changes like what you are suggesting but if icefrog are drunk and did make the game with only 20-30 he will son realize and make the next patch (like 6.75 into 6.76)
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #85
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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I really don't see how it would help anything.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #86
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Draguuro-Manchi View Post
Because we don't really have numbers for how big the dota playerbase is. We can only assume that it's as big as x, but we really can't specify it.

Well, maybe for DotA 2 it's possible, but majority of dota players still cling onto dota 1. I mean, you can't say no to this, if it isn't true then Dota 2 wouldn't be filled with interracial nutbrained noobs.
What?

I think you were trying to say something, then you just typed something racist and clicked "Submit Reply". I don't see any conclusion or point in your post

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by VaNiLLa_Con~ View Post
Well since there is no massive changes like what you are suggesting but if icefrog are drunk and did make the game with only 20-30 he will son realize and make the next patch (like 6.75 into 6.76)
You're just wrong

Dota has had massive changes already
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:34 PM   #87
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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I didn't play this game expecting it to be balanced, I don't know why I'd start now.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:37 PM   #88
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
It's easier to balance, with less heroes. I think it's efficient, rather than lazy
Try reaching the balance by destroying the fun, lolpl0x.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:38 PM   #89
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
Uh... Apparently, there is in fact a "Nexus War" browser based game, but it appears to have shut down

I was referring to the SC2 UMS Nexus Wars though, which has been popular since SC2 beta, and is just derived from an ancient BW UMS. It's an example of a highly repetitive game that's been popular for a very long time
Oh, sorry my mistake. I thought I might've found another Nexus War player...
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:39 PM   #90
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyru View Post

You're just wrong

Dota has had massive changes already
But no as much massive as reducing the while 130 heroes (more) into 30 heroes
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:44 PM   #91
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by VaNiLLa_Con~ View Post
But no as much massive as reducing the while 130 heroes (more) into 30 heroes
lel

Who told you that there's currently over 130 heroes?
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:53 PM   #92
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
lel

Who told you that there's currently over 130 heroes?
Sorry i miscalculate its 110 heroes, so let me repeat my self

But not as much massive as reducing 110 heroes into 30 heroes
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:53 PM   #93
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Tyru, it's obvious as to what vanilla is trying to say, you're failing hard here, you're even dodging my replies. And about that racial shit, that's in relation to your post. What I meant to say is that we can't say for sure that what you're trying to point out is correct. There might've been such an incident to occur without us knowing because there's no way to know just how big the dota playerbase is, but now we can in DotA 2.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Draguuro-Manchi View Post
Tyru, it's obvious as to what vanilla is trying to say, you're failing hard here, you're even dodging my replies. And about that racial shit, that's in relation to your post. What I meant to say is that we can't say for sure that what you're trying to point out is correct. There might've been such an incident to occur without us knowing because there's no way to know just how big the dota playerbase is, but now we can in DotA 2.
The fact that people still play it = We can say for sure that I'm correct; because I said that people sitll play it
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:59 PM   #95
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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The fact that people still play it = We can say for sure that I'm correct; because I said that people sitll play it
Correct? on what exactly?
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:00 PM   #96
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Correct? on what exactly?
That people still play Dota... I think I made that pretty clear

I'm not sure how simple you want me to make this
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:03 PM   #97
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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That people still play Dota... I think I made that pretty clear

I'm not sure how simple you want me to make this
now? yes people will still play dota

but if your suggestion are implemented, im not sure
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:05 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by VaNiLLa_Con~ View Post
now? yes people will still play dota

but if your suggestion are implemented, im not sure
Plenty of people would still play. The only ones who would actually quit are the ones who can't win a game without picking fotm heroes every game
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:10 PM   #99
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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That people still play Dota... I think I made that pretty clear

I'm not sure how simple you want me to make this
But now change that 110 Hero pool to 30, like what vanilla said.

Just imagine how many will leave.

Now I'm asking you to choose 30 heroes to stay because you just can't make them from scratch, it has to exist already otherwise you're making a totally different game.

@your post above mine,

You're not sure of that, you're simply theorycrafting.

Also, closest to minimizing hero pool that we have in dota are cm, sd, and rd.

But then again, these modes still use the "imba" heroes already present in dota.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:17 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Draguuro-Manchi View Post
But now change that 110 Hero pool to 30, like what vanilla said.

Just imagine how many will leave.

Now I'm asking you to choose 30 heroes to stay because you just can't make them from scratch, it has to exist already otherwise you're making a totally different game.

@your post above mine,

You're not sure of that, you're simply theorycrafting.

Also, closest to minimizing hero pool that we have in dota are cm, sd, and rd.

But then again, these modes still use the "imba" heroes already present in dota.
Lmfao "you're simply theorycrafting"

Well then so are you, I guess I win by default
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:24 PM   #101
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Lmfao "you're simply theorycrafting"

Well then so are you, I guess I win by default
Congratulations.

Seriously, that was the stupidest argument I've ever tried to work out with online for years.

Anyways, you know that the validity of our argument is much better than yours, I don't want to meddle in with your imaginary victory but seriously, you had me explaining shit around five times then you avoid the topic itself and you shift on to argue to another person, where you start losing sense.

Anyways congratulations with your so-called "default" victory then. I guess you earned it for all the effort.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:27 PM   #102
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Congratulations.

Seriously, that was the stupidest argument I've ever tried to work out with online for years.

Anyways, you know that the validity of our argument is much better than yours, I don't want to meddle in with your imaginary victory but seriously, you had me explaining shit around five times then you avoid the topic itself and you shift on to argue to another person, where you start losing sense.

Anyways congratulations with your so-called "default" victory then. I guess you earned it for all the effort.
Well you can't declare yourself the winner of a "theorycrafting" debate, when you only call it "theorycrafting" in an attempt to illegitimize an opposing point. Either we're all theorycrafting, or none of us are

Pick one
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:45 PM   #103
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Well you can't declare yourself the winner of a "theorycrafting" debate, when you only call it "theorycrafting" in an attempt to illegitimize an opposing point. Either we're all theorycrafting, or none of us are

Pick one
I pick that none of us are theorycrafting, but then read the part where the validity of my post is much better than yours, because we all know that it is.

Even if we can't say for sure, it's almost a no-brainer. So I'll go back to the argument that you started with me earlier, about me upvoting about DotA's charm(having a big roster) over it's balance, because, well, it makes sense that that's the reason players stayed.

Sure there are people leaving because DotA is imba, but then again, as what I've said, that's the bread and butter of all A-RTS/MOBA game.

Anything to back up your claim about players staying even if the roster is changed to 30 balanced heroes, which should be created from scrap and not picked from the current hero pool, which I asked you to do for several times?

Anyways, enjoy your imaginary victory, I can see flying colors by now around your front lawn.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:46 PM   #104
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I pick that none of us are theorycrafting, but then read the part where the validity of my post is much better than yours, because we all know that it is.

Even if we can't say for sure, it's almost a no-brainer. So I'll go back to the argument that you started with me earlier, about me upvoting about DotA's charm over it's balance, because, well, it makes sense that that's the reason players stayed.

Sure there are people leaving because DotA is imba, but then again, as what I've said, that's the bread and butter of all A-RTS/MOBA game.

Anything to back up your claim about players staying even if the roster is changed to 30 balanced heroes, which should be created from scrap and not picked from the current hero pool, which I asked you to do for several times?

Anyways, enjoy your imaginary victory, I can see flying colors by now around your front lawn.
You are simply wrong

The game would not suffer any noteworthy loss of players, just by removing some heroes
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:50 PM   #105
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You are simply wrong

The game would not suffer any noteworthy loss of players, just by removing some heroes
Dude, I thought you said the heroes should be made from scrap?

So...

And let's see, current hero roster goes to around 110, right?

Then you want it to be lessened to around 30, yes, which is as much as 1/4 of the current hero pool.

Hmm, true, true, I guess it would not suffer that much of a loss considering that YOU FUCKING DELETED 75% OF THE GAME'S CONTENT.

No, skip that. What you want to happen is to have a new game.

You're not trying to keep the playerbase, you're trying to cater to the old one to play your new game.

Here's some more colored confetti for your victorious online argument, I hope you're enjoying it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:52 PM   #106
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Dude, I thought you said the heroes should be made from scrap?

So...

And let's see, current hero roster goes to around 110, right?

Then you want it to be lessened to around 30, yes, which is as much as 1/4 of the current hero pool.

Hmm, true, true, I guess it would not suffer that much of a loss considering that YOU FUCKING DELETED 75% OF THE GAME'S CONTENT.
I said that removing all existing heroes, and starting from the ground up with a smaller number in mind is an option

Read: option

Do you know what this word means? If not, please use the links below to gain a better understanding of the concept -

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/option
http://thesaurus.com/browse/option
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:52 PM   #107
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the best balance isn't perfect balance it's imperfect balance since that forces player to counterpick and allows for metashifts. and no i like dota with tons of heroes.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:54 PM   #108
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If you like that idea, why not play LP mode?
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:58 PM   #109
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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the best balance isn't perfect balance it's imperfect balance since that forces player to counterpick and allows for metashifts. and no i like dota with tons of heroes.
Countering can still be an aspect of a balanced game

For example, in Starcraft you have Collosi which effectively counter light infantry units, flying anti-air that hard counters Collosi, etc., and this doesn't make Starcraft imbalanced by the inclusion of counters (though Starcraft is of course not 100% balanced)
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:03 PM   #110
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
I said that removing all existing heroes, and starting from the ground up with a smaller number in mind is an option


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Originally Posted by Draguuro-Manchi View Post
Dude, I thought you said the heroes should be made from scrap?

So...

No, skip that. What you want to happen is to have a new game.

You're not trying to keep the playerbase, you're trying to cater to the old one to play your new game.

Here's some more colored confetti for your victorious online argument, I hope you're enjoying it.
And option?

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No, skip that. What you want to happen is to have a new game.
And that's not an option.

@your post above,

You do realize doing so means MAKING A NEW GAME and not just simply rebalancing dota to make it as close as to being balanced.

Just think about it, first you want it to have only 25% of the current hero pool, then you want all of them to be made from scratch, and lastly you expect the players to not leave the game even with the most atrocious changes.

That's like playing chess, but then changing it to checkers, making all pieces only move in one way and having a "coin toss" first just to make things even between the two(they both have an equal chance to get the first move, so it's balanced).

Do you realize where you're going with this now?
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:26 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Draguuro-Manchi View Post
And option?



And that's not an option.

@your post above,

You do realize doing so means MAKING A NEW GAME and not just simply rebalancing dota to make it as close as to being balanced.

Just think about it, first you want it to have only 25% of the current hero pool, then you want all of them to be made from scratch, and lastly you expect the players to not leave the game even with the most atrocious changes.

That's like playing chess, but then changing it to checkers, making all pieces only move in one way and having a "coin toss" first just to make things even between the two(they both have an equal chance to get the first move, so it's balanced).

Do you realize where you're going with this now?
Wrong

The game is already made, the only required work is some hero resdesigns
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:58 PM   #112
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I mean, there's virtually no balanced game in the world. Chess isn't balanced and it's basic as fuck. You know why? Cause of skills.
LOL...I see you don't know what "balanced" means. It means the elements of the game are balanced as is, before player input is added to the equation. The only imbalance in chess is the fact that white moves first. You sound stupid.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:07 PM   #113
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Are the mods really gonna let him spam this shit?
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:08 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
Wrong

The game is already made, the only required work is some hero resdesigns
Ah christ, this is getting really stupid by now.

Anyways,

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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
As for which heroes should be left in the game, and which should be removed; this is an incredibly silly question. Many existing heroes would need a rework, to fit within the smaller pool properly, or it could even be better to just delete them all, and start from scratch, with a much lower final number in mind. Choosing any number of the current pool would be stupid
firstly, you never said that starting from scratch would be an option, you're even more into it than "reworking the heroes" because as you've said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
Choosing any number of the current pool would be stupid
It's kinda tiring retyping shit again and again, so if you have anything else to say, I'll just copy paste stuff that I've kept on saying for some time now like that part that I bolded on the post that you just quoted.

Added:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetsourpanda View Post
LOL...I see you don't know what "balanced" means. It means the elements of the game are balanced as is, before player input is added to the equation. The only imbalance in chess is the fact that white moves first. You sound stupid.
Read the last three words. I was incorporating it to dota, because dota changes to cater with the skills of players, and sure, chess doesn't do that catering part, but then again, if we put all of these whining babies out of the game, then changes will be less. If we apply that logic to chess, if the players of chess keeps on whining about white being first, then maybe they'll decide to just let black start first.

You getting where I'm getting here?
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:12 PM   #115
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Ah christ, this is getting really stupid by now.

Anyways,



firstly, you never said that starting from scratch would be an option, you're even more into it than "reworking the heroes" because as you've said,



It's kinda tiring retyping shit again and again, so if you have anything else to say, I'll just copy paste stuff that I've kept on saying for some time now like that part that I bolded on the post that you just quoted.
English isn't your first language is it?

Please tell me your native language, so I can translate this for you, instead of repeating myself all day

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

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Are the mods really gonna let him spam this shit?
How is this thread spam?

It's the only Thread that I've made on the subject
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:22 PM   #116
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English isn't your first language is it?

Please tell me your native language, so I can translate this for you, instead of repeating myself all day
Okay, then translate it to perfect tagalog, cause it's my fault I'm reading your post in the wrong way.

Well, since you might not be able to do that then tell me, since I too have been repeating shit for like three pages now, what do you want me to understand here?

That what? You want to balance the game?

I already answered that. DotA can't be balanced because it runs in a "fanservice" way of updating. It will keep on updating to cater to everyone and to make everything fresh. It's not "adding a little bit of flavor", it's "serving an added side dish".

That you want it to have 30 balanced heroes and expect the players to not leave?

That these heroes should either be made from scratch or picked from the hero pool which I asked you to pick yourself, which you said is a stupid idea?

Tell me, what part of your post did I not understand?
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:24 PM   #117
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is is sad how many people baited....
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:26 PM   #118
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is is sad how many people baited....
It was a good bait. Haven't done this in years.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:29 PM   #119
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Okay, then translate it to perfect tagalog, cause it's my fault I'm reading your post in the wrong way.

Well, since you might not be able to do that then tell me, since I too have been repeating shit for like three pages now, what do you want me to understand here?

That what? You want to balance the game?

I already answered that. DotA can't be balanced because it runs in a "fanservice" way of updating. It will keep on updating to cater to everyone and to make everything fresh. It's not "adding a little bit of flavor", it's "serving an added side dish".

That you want it to have 30 balanced heroes and expect the players to not leave?

That these heroes should either be made from scratch or picked from the hero pool which I asked you to pick yourself, which you said is a stupid idea?

Tell me, what part of your post did I not understand?
I did not say that the only solution was to remove all of the currently existing heroes. I stated that as an option, which they could choose, if picking a certain amount of heroes, and trying to balance them around current their current state was not their desired course of action

In Tagalog -

Hindi ko sabihin na ang tanging solusyon ay upang alisin ang lahat ng kasalukuyang umiiral na bayani.Ko nakasaad na bilang isang pagpipilian, kung saan maaari nilang piliin, kung pagpili ng isang tiyak na halaga ng mga bayani, at subukang balansehin ang mga ito sa buong kasalukuyang kanilang kasalukuyang estado ay hindi kanilang ninanais na kurso ng aksyon
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:50 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Tyru View Post
I did not say that the only solution was to remove all of the currently existing heroes. I stated that as an option, which they could choose, if picking a certain amount of heroes, and trying to balance them around current their current state was not their desired course of action

In Tagalog -

Hindi ko sabihin na ang tanging solusyon ay upang alisin ang lahat ng kasalukuyang umiiral na bayani.Ko nakasaad na bilang isang pagpipilian, kung saan maaari nilang piliin, kung pagpili ng isang tiyak na halaga ng mga bayani, at subukang balansehin ang mga ito sa buong kasalukuyang kanilang kasalukuyang estado ay hindi kanilang ninanais na kurso ng aksyon
I never said it was the only solution, I only said that you were more into that idea than balancing heroes from the current hero pool. See: or better yet.

Added: sure, I said you're not giving the "PLAYERS" an option because you're not rebalancing the game, you're changing it. It'll not be DotA anymore if this change of yours ever occurs.

And please don't tell me you google translated that shit cause it's not even funny.
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