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Old 02-11-2013, 04:16 AM   #161
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Default Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroes?


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Old 02-11-2013, 04:16 AM   #162
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by he_kod View Post
every hero has 15 different spells to upgrade.

and a player can only pick 4 out of 15.

then it's a YES.


the problem with the current DOTA is that 50% of the result is determined by hero choice. with this change. every single hero will have 32480328403284 different ways to play. and the game result will no longer be decided after picking.
Dota 2 is fine as it is.

However your idea is very interesting, go make this game and I'll certainly test it out
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:23 AM   #163
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

No. Just no. The player base will drop and drop. Who enjoys seeing 80% of their favourite heros removed?
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:46 AM   #164
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

I don't understand why people want to remove heroes. One of my favorite heroes is Timbersaw/Shredder. Is he often picked? No. Is he OP? No. Is he underpowered? Probably yes. Going by your standards, he should be removed from the hero pool. But why? Why would you remove a hero that plenty of people find them a blast to play just because it's going to be easier to balance the game? What about variety? What about just having fun? Games like dota can never truly be balanced. This is why we have picks and counterpicks. This is why we have bans. In a truly balanced dota game, there would be no need for bans since all heroes are equal. But then every hero would be the same, then where's the fun in that?

Why is this thread still alive btw?
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:13 AM   #165
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

LOL wtf is going on in this thread? There's like 2 pages per hr being added and nothing new has been said for the last 5 pages, I'm not going to follow it anymore. Good job, draguuro, you spammed the thread until it was unreadable
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:40 AM   #166
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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LOL wtf is going on in this thread? There's like 2 pages per hr being added and nothing new has been said for the last 5 pages, I'm not going to follow it anymore. Good job, draguuro, you spammed the thread until it was unreadable
Thank you, sir.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:56 AM   #167
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Sounds like League of Legends bullshit >_> Just learn to play the game or go play League of Casuals.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:32 AM   #168
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

I say no, because even if dota only had 30 heros the game still will never be perfectly balanced, because balance goes beyond the personal balance of each hero. I've not been playing dota very long myself so I am not going to try to give any specific examples, but based on what I've seen from other games (Mobas, mmos, anything that requires extensive and constant balance changes.) is that even if you got EVERYTHING perfectly balanced from a mathmatical stand point, there would still be overpowered things that need to be changed.

This is due to how abilities interact with other abilities that simply wasn't noticed before or taken into account for before. Lets say there is some uber super combo that can one shot everyone on a team when put together, but apart there not really more of a problem then they were intended to be. Well, you'd have to nerf something in that case and buff something else to compensate until another problem of that sort arises or until you find ANOTHER balance between all the abilities that works for a moment.

30 heros, 200 heros, it wouldn't change the cycle at all imo. Reducing the number of heros would only take away diversity and choice. Sorry if I didn't make much sense but that's my opinion. XP Not to good at explaining my thoughts, sadly.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:44 AM   #169
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

As long as heroes have unique playstyles or a different approach, I'm for more heroes.

But having 3 heroes that basically do the same with different animations seems redundant. That doesn't mean 1 ranged support with a stun only, but whenever the public opinion that "why pick X when Y can do everything but better?" remains for a longer period, hero X should be revised from all sides and maybe remade.

For example what real reason is there to pick lina over lion? The dmg from one more nuke can be more than made up by a reliable disable and another disable that lets allies whack on the target. Lina can hardly initiate with that stun, merely follow up, lion can initiate and follow up his own stun.
And lina's passive is a gimmick.
Therefore she's a remake-candidate imo.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:56 AM   #170
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by pilz View Post
As long as heroes have unique playstyles or a different approach, I'm for more heroes.

But having 3 heroes that basically do the same with different animations seems redundant. That doesn't mean 1 ranged support with a stun only, but whenever the public opinion that "why pick X when Y can do everything but better?" remains for a longer period, hero X should be revised from all sides and maybe remade.

For example what real reason is there to pick lina over lion? The dmg from one more nuke can be more than made up by a reliable disable and another disable that lets allies whack on the target. Lina can hardly initiate with that stun, merely follow up, lion can initiate and follow up his own stun.
And lina's passive is a gimmick.
Therefore she's a remake-candidate imo.
Interesting thoughts. But there will be always people who will think the opposite. IIRC in Dota 2 competitive scene Lina is more picked then Lion ATM.

To OP:
I wouldn't prefer Dota with 20-30 heroes. Removing old heroes would really hurt the community (especially if you remove 50-80% of them). If a brand new hero is very unpopular it can be removed.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:03 PM   #171
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Why not only 1 hero? it's much more efficient to balance, and it takes out the need for a long and boring drafting phase that is so game deciding and unbalanced, tbh, they should reduce the amount of items while they are at it, maybe lets say... boots and circlets?
While we are at it lets removes neuts and lanes, it's not efficient having to consider that many different creeps and several lanes let alone roshan.
It would also be a lot more efficient if towers didn't do damage to heroes, it's way too hard to balance.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:05 PM   #172
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by he_kod View Post
every hero has 15 different spells to upgrade.

and a player can only pick 4 out of 15.

then it's a YES.


the problem with the current DOTA is that 50% of the result is determined by hero choice. with this change. every single hero will have 32480328403284 different ways to play. and the game result will no longer be decided after picking.
You know why there's "strategy" in "real-time strategy"?
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:19 PM   #173
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

only 20-30 hero are used in dota anyway
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:09 PM   #174
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by nerovergil View Post
only 20-30 hero are used in dota anyway
That , and having only 20-30 heros will be a easy chose to counter-pick your enemy and win the game.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:10 PM   #175
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

There are a few heroes I would personally remove but there are good reasons I'm not in charge of this game. No to this notion.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #176
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by nerovergil View Post
only 20-30 hero are used in dota anyway
Because 99% of dota games consists of competitive/tournament games..?
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #177
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Just play Random Draft. I love the variety of heroes in Dota. It's one of the reasons I've played it so long.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:15 PM   #178
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Sorry, but this is a terrible idea. This would ruin the game. Dota is meant to be diverse and complicated, which keeps the game interesting. It would lose most of its playerbase.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:26 PM   #179
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by SugaSutA View Post
You know why there's "strategy" in "real-time strategy"?
strategy is never something that set in stone.

that's why picking 4 skills out of 15 will dramatically increase the strategic depth of DOTA.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:27 PM   #180
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

No.
Every hero doesn't need to be viable competitively.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:26 PM   #181
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Originally Posted by CGtv.Endrence View Post
Sounds like League of Legends bullshit >_> Just learn to play the game or go play League of Casuals.
lolwut

LoL adds new heroes at an alarming rate. For a while, they added one like every 2 weeks. That game is grossly inflated with heroes. Removing heroes would actually make the game far less similar to LoL

---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Snifnix View Post
Why not only 1 hero? it's much more efficient to balance, and it takes out the need for a long and boring drafting phase that is so game deciding and unbalanced, tbh, they should reduce the amount of items while they are at it, maybe lets say... boots and circlets?
While we are at it lets removes neuts and lanes, it's not efficient having to consider that many different creeps and several lanes let alone roshan.
It would also be a lot more efficient if towers didn't do damage to heroes, it's way too hard to balance.
Skill cap too low for a team game, if there's only one hero. Similarly it's too low, with hundreds of unnecessary heroes, wherein many of them simply overpower the weaker ones. The idea is to find the correct balance (a multi purpose word indeed), to min/max the skill cap, to the highest potential of raw player skill
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:03 PM   #182
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

ok
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:20 PM   #183
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Wow I hate it when people say that this game is any bit similar to LoL. This game is far superior to League in every competitive way.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:26 PM   #184
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Dota without Heroes isn't Dota...
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:29 PM   #185
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Tyru quit spamming the forum with nonsense.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:31 PM   #186
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

wtf is wrong with you!?
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:33 PM   #187
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

I'd be content with no techies
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:33 PM   #188
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

The game is perfectly fine. What you don't understand is, that the win ratio of all heros cannot be between 49% - 51%. Balance includes that heros like Drow and Treant exists.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:43 PM   #189
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Real life isn't 100% balanced either, exhibit A, Chuck Norris.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:48 PM   #190
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

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Nice anti-religious sentiment added in for no good reason. You forgot to insult George Bush, and blame Christians for some kind of random, unrelated problem though

But yes it is easier to just throw the hero concept away, instead of fitting it into an environment that may or may not be suited for it. That's... the entire point. It's an efficient solution

For someone that talks about "weak minded" people, you don't seem to comprehend the idea of efficiency very well
Removing stuff to make it work perfectly (but making it bland and unintresting) IS NOT EFFICIENT WAY to change things... Its like , when I begin to play dota, I'd need to waste loltonn of hours learning , why not simply remove dota?


Too much spamming around Tyru , and then making "WTF?ImajustDiscussin guyz!" posts which involves even more spamming.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:49 PM   #191
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

HELL no.95% of all heroes are fun to use.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:53 PM   #192
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

It's not like in LoL. Heroes aren't new releases of previous heroes that do the same thing better, or just alternate versions of them.

Every hero in DotA has a unique mechanic/game style. If it was LoL, where all classes play the same, then yes. Otherwise no.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:00 PM   #193
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

This thread... Dota is not a game of heroes X and Y have equal winrates therefore they are balanced nor is it about R hero counters S hero. Its a game of innate complexity due to the possible combinations. This large number of combinations is actually a large part of why the game is so well balanced; some combination is likely to be a good solution to a problem. This doesnt work as well for lol because heroes are copy/pasted to a large extent so there are effectively many fewer combos (id say there are basically just ~15-20 "classes" in lol that do meaningfully different things). As long as individual hero balance remains reasonable this system keeps overall balance fairly well in line..

Im curious: you keep invoking balance issues as motivation for a change but what are the specific issues? I didnt read all 10 pages so maybe i missed them but just saying that they exist without explicitly listing them doesnt help resolve them. I think most people who play Dota competently are pretty content with its current state. Of course there will always be tweaks here and there that may be necessary but a call for such a drastic change must be motivated by some serious issues. I can see one having the view that specific heroes are imbalanced or whatnot, im sure one could come up with legitimate justifications for some on an individual basis, but saying that >70% are severely flawed enough to necessitate removal is pretty radical.

Another aspect is the meta-element of balance. We all know the story here; fads and whatnot influencing choices and therefore the perception of the state of the game. This makes it incredibly difficult to deduce the true state of balance. All of these factors in a balance discussion make for a system so deeply complicated that any attempt to drastically redesign it would almost certainly break it.

Lets just do some simple calculations to get a feel of the scope of the game; 2 teams of 5 out of a pool of 100 is 4362197983022880 possible matchups. With a hero pool of 30 it goes down to 7571343780. So you think you could balance all 7.6 billion matchups better than players could achieve balance themselves by experimenting in a pool of 4.4 quadrillion? That is what lol has tried to do among their ~1 million effective matchups; a much simpler task but it still hasnt worked too well for them. Currently in Dota2, for example, for every problem there are 51971283 lineups to choose from that may be a solution (96560646 in Dota1). Reducing the pool to 30 means only 53130 options.

Now i agree that any hero that is completely overshadowed by another that does the same thing better isnt necessary but i really dont see many examples of that in Dota. If that was the case i would prefer they be redesigned to add something new giving players more options to find solutions, not throw them out to limit the possibilities.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:00 PM   #194
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

NO.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:29 PM   #195
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Default Re: Would You Prefer Dota To Only Have 20-30 Heroe

Play random draft if you want 20 heroes, everyone has to pick from the same pool of heroes.
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