Yet Another Sange and Yasha Remake Thread

[chadpiety123]

Sange and Yasha

Recipe Changes:

+ + =
Sange (2250) + Yasha (2250) + Recipe (1000) = Sange and Yasha (5500)

Stat Changes:
+16 Strength
+16 Agility
+12 Damage
+15 Attack Speed
+12% Movement Speed
Greater Maim (passive)
Shift Dominance (toggle)

Greater Maim Remake:
• Gives a 15% chance on attack to slow movement speed by 30% and attack speed by 30 for 4 seconds as well as adding 20 pure damage to any damage instance during the duration. Does not trigger on damage less than 8.

New Ability - Shift Dominance (Toggle):
• Shifts dominance between Sange and Yasha.
• If Sange is dominant, adds 78 HP for every 12 Agility. Additionally adds 4 damage and 0.6 armor for every 20 Strength.
• If Yasha is dominant, adds 4 damage and 0.6 armor for every 12Strength. Additionally adds 78 HP for every 20 Agility.
• Note: Operation used is integer division, there should never be remainders.

Framework:
• Greater Maim almost works exactly as before, but it now adds 20 pure damage for every damage instance during the duration. Activates from any damage source, may the damage be through a spell or through an attack.
• Shift Dominance is very similar to Power Threads, and supposedly "shifts dominance" between the twin swords. During Sange's dominance, 78 HP is added to maximum HP pool for every 12 Agility and 4 damage as well as 0.6 armor for every 20 Strength. During Yasha's dominance, 4 damage and 0.6 armor is added for every 12 Strength as well as 78 HP for every 20 Agility.

Justification:
• S&Y has been a very obsolete item lately because of the "insufficient" perks you get for building up such a tier item. Therefore, the main point of this suggestion is to buff the gains in such a way that is very unique. In addition, since proc'ing Greater Maim doesn't really do "much," I buffed it a bit. For balance purposes of course, I added a recipe to balance out everything.
• This suggestion adds a very nice twist to Sange and Yasha as it adds HP, damage and armor, which is really good now, especially since everybody seems to be using armor strategies in competetive games.
• A very nice scaling item and a very good item for double orbing purposes.

Strategies:
• As Greater Maim now adds 20 pure damage per hit, this item could potentially be great with Illusion heroes because not only does the item add fire power, it also gives valuable HP and damage that can really help illusions.
• Because of the Greater Maim change, summoners can also take advantage of this item, and since double orbing is possible using S&Y and HotD, then summoners can also take advantage of lifesteal as well as dominating creeps.

[BorisPeace-]

Sounds like nice. I'm not judging the numbers but the concept is very fine I think. Congrats, at last a decent S&Y remake.

[king_james]

Interesting. No really, its very interesting. The Greater Maim still feels the same (in concept) so I guess we can leave that as fine.

But what's interesting is the Shift Dominance. I like it, personally, its innovative, although we've seen in with Power Treads. Regardless, this could work well.

I agree that S&Y is a bit obsolete, I mean, why wouldn't it with the new era of Manta/Armor type of item builds that I see well too often.

The most hero with most beneficiary with this remake would probably be Morphling. He'll be the most flexible whether Sange or Yasha is dominant (also with Morph).

One of the better S&Y remakes in the forum.

[xy4kuz4x]

I love the greater Maim's concept. It's worthy as one of orb effect. The toggle ability is nice too. But, it may cause an imbalance to the game. Example, doom has 70 str and yasha is dominant. He'll get 50 dmg and 10 armor.

[Dynes]

Broodmother can fucking own! wait her 3rd skill is there already... maybe Krobelus... be back later... maybe.

[dagoncrowgg]

I like it. Creative and solves a problem that has been with sange&yasha forever. best S&Y remake on the site. T-up.

[infer]

T-up, it's rlly the best S&Y remake in all the forum i love it ^^ the idea of using the "shift dominance" owns, now S&Y is worth getting for late game, adding the recipe to balance the item is also a good idea it would be too op if not

[~Maktor~]

I like the concept a lot. t-up

but the numbers are imba IMO

[NoThlnG]

Originally Posted by infer

T-up, it's rlly the best S&Y remake in all the forum i love it ^^ the idea of using the "shift dominance" owns, now S&Y is worth getting for late game, adding the recipe to balance the item is also a good idea it would be too op if not

Yeah, I think so. Shift dominance sounds really good to me.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Wow shift dominance...where did you get this from?It's really nice concept ^_^

[Dynes]

@~Maktor~

Later comes the numbers, this sounds good, but totally imba...

One sword being dominant over the other ruins the balance of "Sange and Yasha", thus, it is imba ...

[mobus]

From useless to imba

[chadpiety123]

Umm, thanks a lot guys for the positive feedback. I'm still in need of help with the numbers though. Really.

With regards to numbers, here are some facts:
1 Agility = 0.14 Armor, 1 ASPD, 1 Damage
1 Strength = 19 HP, 1 Damage

So if I want to balance this item, I'll probably make the bonuses trigger for every 12 for the dominant stat, and every 21 for the non-dominant stat, and the bonuses should be equivalent to 4 of the counterpart. I think that's balanced enough. I'll update.

EDIT: Changed divisors to 12 and 20, also changed bonuses to 0.6 Armor and 4 Damage for Strength and 78 HP for Agility.

[HellCraft]

Well, I hardly have anything to comment here since I am not much of a SnY user(actually I never remember using in the past year).

Although, for those who think that this is 'IMBA', I may have to disagree.
First off 78 HP, 4 damage and 0.4 armor isn't much.
78 HP is like 4 strength(+2 hp), 4 damage is like 4 of your primary attribute and 0.4 armor is 3 agility(-0.02 armor).
So its basically adding +4 strength/primary attribute/agility depending on your stats.
Lets say you are an agility hero, you get this item late game(normal time of getting an item costing 5500 gold), you probably will be having 70-100 agi.
Lets say you have 100 agi and you shift to Sange Dominance, you get 390 hp, thats not that much since its late game and 390 hp late game is near to negligible.
Being an agi hero, you will be having 50-75 str, you get 4 damage and 0.4 armor for every 12 str. Say you have 72 str, you get 24 damage and 2.4 armor. Thats not much.

Some people may say that 24 damage, 2.4 armor and 390 hp is too much for +1000 gold. But I disagree because of two things, firstly, I agree items like Mithril Hammer and Vitality Booster are much costlier than 1000 gold, but those item mentioned above are supposed to be more costly than higher tier items, firstly because lower tier items generally give lesser benefits for the same cost compared to higher tier ones and secondly, its late game when you get 5500 gold. At early game, 390 HP is much more better than at late game. So keeping a price like 1100 for 250 hp is fine, since 1100 gold can be attained easily early-mid game where it has better effects.
The second reason on why I disagree that the effects too much for +1000 gold is because is weak, and weak means its effects are not worth its cost. Meaning that SnY actually costs lesser than 4500 currently, say 3750. So this item's price being 5500 is actually +1750 gold for its effects.

Other than that I have only 1 thing to say is that instead of +78 damage and +0.4 armor, change it to +76 damage and 0.42 armor, so basically you get the effect of 4 str/agi per every 20/12 str/agi you have.

[Mae Shirayuki]

chadpiety123, there are 3 more key icons which are not used yet in DotA. You may use it for this idea instead of using SnY. I think you can name it as King's Key or whatever you want. You idea is nice. But please think about the key icons I told you.

[Mae Shirayuki]

The keys...

[HellCraft]

Originally Posted by Jin_Kazama

chadpiety123, there are 3 more key icons which are not used yet in DotA. You may use it for this idea instead of using SnY. I think you can name it as King's Key or whatever you want. You idea is nice. But please think about the key icons I told you.

How are keys related to Swords?
This is a remake not an Item Idea.

Also use the Edit function next time.

[chadpiety123]

@HellCraft
And this is exactly why I'm trying to remake the item into something more "useful."

Umm thanks for doing this. Haha, I really appreciate it. Though the comments prior yours were probably because before the numbers were a bit outrageous -- specifically, 7 or 12 agility or strength for 16 HP OR 1 armor and 5 damage.

Again thanks for the analysis, do you think this item remake needs a buff or is it fine as it is? Is it okay if I decrease the divisors a little more?

Anyway, thanks again, and 0.14*3 is 0.56 (increased it to 0.6 instead) and 19*4 is 76 (increased it to 78 instead).

@Jin_Kazama
What are the keys for specifically? Are you saying that this would be better off as a new item instead?

[Mae Shirayuki]

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

@Jin_Kazama
What are the keys for specifically? Are you saying that this would be better off as a new item instead?

Ya. I am suggesting you to create a new items by using the keys instead of posting a thread of remake SnY. Maybe 90% of DotA players said that SnY is balance item. So, I just suggest this for you. Use the key as a new item for your suggestion. But don't use maim effect.

[FlamingFist]

very interesting, as usual, good concept. nc concept of greater maim, also shift dominance is good, very creative.

decent s&y thread, t-up