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Old 08-19-2012, 06:18 AM   #1
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Default MKB vs Daedalus


Which should I get (assuming MKB's Truesight is not needed)?

What is the base damage threshold I should have crossed to make Daedalus more effective?
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:47 AM   #2
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I'm under the impression that Daedalus will always be better unless you need that truestrike/mini-crit.
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Last edited by Frost; 08-19-2012 at 02:27 PM.
Old 08-19-2012, 06:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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MKB is always the safer and more reliable choice. However, none of its components are as impressive as Crystallis.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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If you're a ranged hero, there's always attacking uphill. MKB makes cracking tier 3s much easier.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynthiaCrescent View Post
MKB is always the safer and more reliable choice. However, none of its components are as impressive as Crystallis.
I wouldn't place javelin so far behind crystalis gold/dmg wise.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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You have to ask a mechfag for the damage threshold thing. But i'm just going to say that choosing between mkb and dae is based on the situation, like if you are expecting more teamfights, then go for daedalus, or if u want good pushing power, take mkb.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #7
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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There isn't a fixed break-even point because you have to consider:
1. Attack speed from MKB
2. Damage type of minibash (always magic damage in dota 2).
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:15 AM   #8
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Here's what i found:
Quote:
Daedalus: +81 damage
25% 2.5x critical = .75 + .25*2.5 = 1.375 = 37.5% damage increase

DPS = APS * D

Define pre-existing damage as X, pre-existing AS as Y

Post-Daedalus damage

D = (X+81)*1.375 = 111.375 + 1.375X
AS = Y/100
APS = (1+Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (111.375 + 1.375X)(1+Y)/BAT

MKB: +88 damage + 15 AS
+100 damage 35% of the time = +35 damage per hit

MKB in reality = 88+35 = 123 damage per hit

Post-MKB damage
D = X+123
AS = (Y+15)/100
APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT

Solving for X and Y

DPS output of MKB and Daedalus are the same when:

MKB - Daedalus
(X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT = (111.375+1.375X)(1+Y/100)/BAT
(X+123)(115 + Y) = (111.375+1.375X)(100 + Y)

115X + XY + 14145 + 123Y = 11137.5 + 111.375Y + 137.5X + 1.375XY

3007.5 + 11.625Y = 22.5X + 0.375XY
30075 + 116.25Y = 225X + 3.75XY
120300 + 465Y = 900X + 15XY
8020 + 31Y = 60X + XY
8020 + 31Y = X(Y + 60)

(31Y + 8020)/(Y + 60) = X

If X > (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy Daedalus
If X < (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy MKB

Random example #1 (note: BAT is not accounted for but it doesn't really matter):
Skeleton King deals 200 damage per attack and has 200 AS.

(323)(1.15+2) ? (386.375)(1+2)
1017.45 < 1159.125

Daedalus gives more DPS

Skeleton King deals 100 damage per attack and has 200 AS
(223)(3.15) ? (248.875)(3)
702.45 < 746.625

Daedalus gives more DPS

Skeleton King deals 100 damage per attack and has 100 AS
(223)(2.25) ? (248.875)(2)
501.75 > 497.75

MKB gives more DPS

Conclusion: We all know that Daedalus sucks at low base damage levels. If I weren't lazy I could graph this out and whatnot but as of right now will leave it like this. I suppose what's useful if you are trying to flesh out a hero's item build you could set a damage level and see what AS you'd need to merit getting one item or the other...

If you do 100 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?

(223)(1.15 + Z/100) = (248.875)(1 + Z/100)
256.45 + 2.23Z = 248.875 + 2.48875Z
7.575 = .25875Z
29.275 = Z

So if you have 29 AS better to get MKB... and at 30 AS better to get Daedalus?

(223)(1.15+.29) ? (248.875)(1+.29)
321.12 > 321.04875

(223)(1.15+.3) ? (248.875)(1+.3)
323.35 < 323.5375

If you do 75 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?
(198)(1.15 + Z/100) = (214.5)(1+Z/100)
227.7 + 1.98Z = 214.5 + 2.145Z
13.2 = .165Z
80 = Z

So if you have 79 IAS better to get MKB and at 81 IAS better to get Daedalus.

(198)(1.15+.79) > (214.5)(1+.79)
384.12 > 383.955

(198)(1.96) < (214.5)(1.81)
388.08 < 388.245

Graph
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:32 AM   #9
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Dunno why so much useless math up there

x = AS
y = damage

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)

So we must find when they do the same DPS.

x * (y+81) * 1.375 = (x+15) * (y+123)



Buriza > MKB pretty much always.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
So we must find when they do the same DPS.

x * (y+81) * 1.375 = (x+15) * (y+123)
How does that work if x=0?

Implying that when saying:
Buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375 (x=AS) is not the DPS formula. Instead of "x" it should be APS = (1+x/100)/BAT
Making Buriza(dps)=(y+81) * 1.375*(1+x/100)/BAT

Same with MKB. (APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT)
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mousatos View Post
How does that work if x=0?
As I said, x = Attack Speed, not increased attack speed, your attack speed can't go below 20, even in the case that it would be 0, it means you are not making any attack at all, so MKB is better cause it allows you to do attacks...

Or in other words it means that if x = 0 there is never a point in which they do the same DPS, remember that it is an hyperbola, if you want the full graphic for negative values and much larger values input that in geogebra online application.

Of course this is considering you don't allow negative values for damage, but if that is the case then there are points in which you are healing the target if your damage is too low. Either way MKB should deal 0 DPS at -15 AS and at -123 damage, so the point (0, -123) should be in that graph since both deal equal DPS, 0.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
As I said, x = Attack Speed, not increased attack speed, your attack speed can't go below 20, even in the case that it would be 0, it means you are not making any attack at all, so MKB is better cause it allows you to do attacks...
Edited the post above.

Also, you are wrong. If x=0 => APS=1/(BAT)=1/1.7 attacks per second (in most cases, where BAT=1.7sec)
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mousatos View Post
Edited the post above.

Also, you are wrong. If x=0 => APS=1/(BAT)=1/1.7 attacks per second (in most cases where BAT=1.7sec)
As I said, x = AS not APS, BAT an irrelevant factor when comparing the items.


Suppose we have a hero that deals x damage, with y AS and z BAT.

What would be the increase % wise of DPS if we add x1 damage?
It would be (x+x1)/x

For AS is the same, as you see z is not involves in any of those calculations, meaning it is irrelevant to calculate the % increase.

If one gives more % increase than the other and z is irrelevant always then we can say that z is irrelevant when comparing what item brings more DPS to the hero.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #14
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nice 1k crit

but mis alll

rofl
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #15
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Or if you want a more simple way to understand if that does not make sense to you.

The DPS is:

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT

When comparing

g(x): (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Since BAT != 0

f(x): (x+15) * (y+123) = x * (y+81) * 1.375

f(x) = g(x)
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
As I said, x = AS not APS
Then your formula is not the DPS formula.
DPS=DMG(of one attack)*APS(attacks per second)
You replaced APS part with AS, making
x * (y+81) * 1.375
stand for nothing. What is DMG * AS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
The DPS is:

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT
No.
APS=1+x/(BAT)

buriza= 1+x/(BAT)*(y+81) * 1.375
MKB=(1.15 + x/100)/BAT*(y+123)
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mousatos View Post
Then your formula is not the DPS formula.
DPS=DMG(of one attack)*APS(attacks per second)
You replaced APS part with AS, making
x * (y+81) * 1.375
stand for nothing. What is DMG * AS?


No.
APS=1+x/(BAT)

buriza= 1+x/(BAT)*(y+81) * 1.375
MKB=(1.15 + x/100)/BAT*(y+123)
That graph works perfectly, they do the same DPS at the following:

(x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Where x is you attack speed and y is your damage.

That graph yields the same result as the one I posted as I said already above, if you want to move the axis x by 100 units so you get IAS instead of AS do it, fine by me, not like I care.

If you are truly clueless about math then don't even try....



tl;dr You don't need to use the DPS formula, you need to use your brain.
Also stop confusing AS = IAS, a hero that is itemless and has 0 agility has an AS of 100 and an IAS of 0.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: MKB vs Daedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mclane23 View Post
I wouldn't place javelin so far behind crystalis gold/dmg wise.
The most attractive features of the MKB is its ability to make every hit counts, and more. I won't deny that in terms of raw damage buriza has an edge.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
That graph works perfectly, they do the same DPS at the following:

(x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Where x is you attack speed and y is your damage.

That graph yields the same result as the one I posted as I said already above, if you want to move the axis x by 100 units so you get IAS instead of AS do it, fine by me, not like I care.

If you are truly clueless about math then don't even try....
Let's make it simpler.
Let's say a hero has x=0 (no IAS AT ALL) and DMG=1.000.000.000 and (BAT) = 1

I put dmg so high because, for the following calculations, i will assume for simplicity's sake, the dmg of the items are negligible. What's 123 or 81 dmg when you have 1.000.000.000 dmg? Same thing with (BAT). Simplicity.

According to your calculations, MKB is always better here. Right? The graph line never reaches zero, making => IF:x=0 always be MKB>Buriza.


Let's see about this.
Normally DPS=1.000.000.000
With MKB DPS=1.000.000.000*1.15(from attack speed)=1.150.000.000
With buriza DPS=1.000.000.000*1.375(from crit multiplier)=1.375.000.000

So there is a point where buriza>MKB for x=0
So your graph is wrong.
So your math is wrong.
So AS is irrelevant with DPS, APS is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
tl;dr You don't need to use the DPS formula, you need to use your brain.
Also stop confusing AS = IAS, a hero that is itemless and has 0 agility has an AS of 100 and an IAS of 0.
Only thing, x=IAS in your math, otherwise, x+15 in MKB formula, is wrong.
The +15 is the IAS MKB gives, not the AS. How can you add AS and IAS?
Still wrong.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:08 PM   #20
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ignoring the Math:
low dmg? yes: get mkb
1st or 2nd core item? yes: get mkb
high dmg? yes: get buriza
*but for drow ranger , i prefer getting buriza after yasha+hotd because she has a lot of dmg even though it would be her like 1st/2nd luxury item
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:18 PM   #21
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Discussed a million times before.
MKB gives superior DPS when criticals are out of the question.

a) against buildings
b) when the attacker is a ranged hero, and the target is magic immune

MKB does not have True Sight btw.

oh, and don't listen idiots saying ranged heroes with MKB can hit towers from downhill. I have plenty of replays/sshot showing it doesn't work.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mousatos View Post
Let's make it simpler.
Let's say a hero has x=0 (no IAS AT ALL) and DMG=1.000.000.000 and (BAT) = 1

I put dmg so high because, for the following calculations, i will assume for simplicity's sake, the dmg of the items are negligible. What's 123 or 81 dmg when you have 1.000.000.000 dmg? Same thing with (BAT). Simplicity.

According to your calculations, MKB is always better here. Right? The graph line never reaches zero, making => IF:x=0 always be MKB>Buriza.


Let's see about this.
Normally DPS=1.000.000.000
With MKB DPS=1.000.000.000*1.15(from attack speed)=1.150.000.000
With buriza DPS=1.000.000.000*1.375(from crit multiplier)=1.375.000.000

So there is a point where buriza>MKB for x=0
So your graph is wrong.
So your math is wrong.
So AS is irrelevant with DPS, APS is relevant.

Only thing, x=IAS in your math, otherwise, x+15 in MKB formula, is wrong.
The +15 is the IAS MKB gives, not the AS. How can you add AS and IAS?
Still wrong.
I can't believe how retarded you are.....


Say a hero has a BAT of 1 for simplicity's sake.

Say he has 0 agility, no items, no skills, nothing affecting him.

He makes 1 attack per second. Or in other words (1+IAS)/BAT = 1/1 attacks per second. Or in other words x/BAT attacks per second where x = 1+IAS.

x = AS = 1+IAS, I used 100 for simplicity's sake on the graph, but you understand that.

Now that you understand that AS = 100+IAS we will proceed to the rest.

Your DPS is

(1+IAS)/BAT*damage*stuff

With mkb your DPS is

(1+0.15+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+123)*stuff

With buriza your DPS is

(1+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+81)*1.375*stuff

Now we must find when they do equal DPS at each point of damage, this will give us some IAS the hero has, we know that at high end buriza is better so anything above the function we will find means buriza is better for that damage and IAS, and anything below means MKB is better, on the function it means it is the same to get either of them.

(1+0.15+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+123)*stuff = (1+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+81)*1.375*stuff

Now we divide both sides by stuff, since hopefully that stuff is not 0.

(1+0.15+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+123) = (1+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+81)*1.375

Now we multiply both sides by BAT since hopefully BAT is not 0.

(1+0.15+IAS/100)*(damage+123) = (1+IAS/100)*(damage+81)*1.375

Now we start naming damage as y.

(1+0.15+IAS/100)*(y+123) = (1+IAS/100)*(y+81)*1.375

Now we make a little change, we are gonna write 1 as 100/100 and .15 as 15/100

(100/100+15/100+IAS/100)*(y+123) = (100/100+IAS/100)*(y+81)*1.375

Now all that is divided by 100 will be placed on a common denominator.

(100+15+IAS)/100*(y+123) = (100+IAS)/100*(y+81)*1.375

Now we multiply both sides by 100.

(100+15+IAS)*(y+123) = (100+IAS)*(y+81)*1.375

BE CAREFUL, THIS IS REALLY HARD! I AM NAMING 100+IAS as AS, AS = IAS+100, IT IS SOMETHING THAT IT HAS BEEN NAMED BY SOME DEEP CULTISTS OF WARCRAFT 3 THIS WAY, SORRY FOR BRINGING SOMETHING SO OBSCURE TO YOUR WORLD, HOPEFULLY YOU CAN FORGIVE ME!

(AS+15)*(y+123) = AS*(y+81)*1.375

Now I will name AS as x.

(x+15)*(y+123) = x*(y+81)*1.375

HOLY SHIT! IT IS WHAT I SAID BEFORE!
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Star_Saber View Post
oh, and don't listen idiots saying ranged heroes with MKB can hit towers from downhill. I have plenty of replays/sshot showing it doesn't work.
for wc3 dota, dota2, or both?
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
Your DPS is

(1+IAS)/BAT*damage*stuff

With mkb your DPS is

(1+0.15+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+123)*stuff

With buriza your DPS is

(1+IAS/100)/BAT*(damage+81)*1.375*stuff
And "stuff" is...?

Also, please describe the graph, what are those nice lon lines supposed to represent?
Damage per hit and...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
x = AS = 1+IAS, I used 100 for simplicity's sake on the graph, but you understand that.

Now that you understand that AS = 100+IAS we will proceed to the rest.
WHAT?
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:37 PM   #25
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Stuff could be something like split shot, soul catcher, etc.

About the red, it has been named like that since stonehenge. If 1 agility gives you 1 Increased Attack Speed, then it means that heroes have something called attack speed.
Now we wonder what the hell can that attack speed be? if the formula for DPS is (1+IAS/100)*BAT*stuff*damage, what is IAS increasing? It is increasing that part (1+IAS/100), so that thing must be called Attack Speed.

I told you that like several times, yet you failed and failed to understand.

About the graph as I already said, they are the AS and damage points in which buriza and MKB increase your DPS by the same, any point (more damage or more AS) above the grapg means buriza is better, any point below means MKB is better.

Of course I showed the relevant part of the graph since nor AS nor damage can be negative (AS can't be lower than 20). But if you check the full graph it is an hyperbola, the inner part of it is where MKB is better and the outer part of it is where Buriza is better.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #26
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its not deadalus vs mkb, its mkb and daedalus
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erios View Post
Stuff could be something like split shot, soul catcher, etc.

About the red, it has been named like that since stonehenge. If 1 agility gives you 1 Increased Attack Speed, then it means that heroes have something called attack speed.
Now we wonder what the hell can that attack speed be? if the formula for DPS is (1+IAS/100)/BAT*stuff*damage, what is IAS increasing? It is increasing that part (1+IAS/100), so that thing must be called Attack Speed.

I told you that like several times, yet you failed and failed to understand.

About the graph as I already said, they are the AS and damage points in which buriza and MKB increase your DPS by the same, any point (more damage or more AS) above the grapg means buriza is better, any point below means MKB is better.

Of course I showed the relevant part of the graph since nor AS nor damage can be negative (AS can't be lower than 20). But if you check the full graph it is an hyperbola, the inner part of it is where MKB is better and the outer part of it is where Buriza is better.
Look, you are right, i am too blame for all of this. My brain failed to register the part where you said you are not comparing buriza and MKB by comparing their DPS, hence my stubbornness to prove you wrong, in an attemt to make my post right, even though it appears both of them are correct.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:59 PM   #28
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get MKB to enter a Base during a push. Or you require the ministun.

For all other cases... i'd say buriza outshines mkb since you're implying truestrike is obsolete... i'd asume this is just against the enemy picks since truestrike become really proficient to push a uphill towers. Since the first towers are on a plain field offensive and defensive. The secondary towers are on offensive grounds, and the tertiary towers are on defensive ground This is where MKB truly shines. While the quadrature towers are on plain grounds again though close to a fountain thus in the advantage of the defender.

IIRC but this could've been before MKB gotten a buff to it'sbase dmg. but if i recall correctly if your dmg output is 138 or more buriza adds more damage during a enduring stand-off than mkb. Where mkb adds more reliable dmg buriza adds oneshot potential... but also can crit on the last 20hp... making it effectively not deal any more dps.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:28 PM   #29
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OK just compare the two items, there isn't a need to go into the whole mathematical 2+2=FISH with a specific variable bull crap.

MKB = True strike (your attacks can't miss) a chance to minibash for an extra 100 damage (interrupts channels) 88 damage and 15 attack speed.

Daedalus = 25% chance to crit for 250% damage, and 81 damage.

Daedalus is the all around better choice. Sure, you can have 100% of your attacks hit with MKB and there is a 35% for a minibash extra 100 damage. But dodge is not a mechanic that exists in this game that everyone can use right off the bat, your attacks will not "Miss" an enemy hero unless they have a natural ability for it (Brew, PA, Windy) or have built an item for it (Butterfly, Halberd, Talisman of Evasion) so you won't "miss" anyway in most cases. Likewise, unless you have a passive ability (SkeleKing, Jugg, Pa) you will NOT crit for a ton of damage. Lets say you have the average damage of a right click carry hero, roughly 100+140 for 240 total damage. Your crits are going to be 240 x 2.5 aka your crits hit for 600. With a 25% chance for this, AT LEAST 1 in 4 attacks will crit, and often you get several in a row.

Daedalas is the all around better choice from the perspective that the ONLY reasons you will build MKB is either A: to counter an evasion ability/item or B: you have an extra slot and can just use anything. In all honesty, I would put Crystalsis at exactly even with MKB for that reason, its useful everywhere. MKB loses out so much if you just randomly decide to grab it for the damage.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandis View Post
OK just compare the two items, there isn't a need to go into the whole mathematical 2+2=FISH with a specific variable bull crap.

MKB = True strike (your attacks can't miss) a chance to minibash for an extra 100 damage (interrupts channels) 88 damage and 15 attack speed.

Daedalus = 25% chance to crit for 250% damage, and 81 damage.

Daedalus is the all around better choice. Sure, you can have 100% of your attacks hit with MKB and there is a 35% for a minibash extra 100 damage. But dodge is not a mechanic that exists in this game that everyone can use right off the bat, your attacks will not "Miss" an enemy hero unless they have a natural ability for it (Void, PA) or have built an item for it (Butterfly) so you won't "miss" anyway in most cases. Likewise, unless you have a passive ability (SkeleKing) you will NOT crit for a ton of damage. Lets say you have the average damage of a right click carry hero, roughly 100+140 for 240 total damage. Your crits are going to be 240 x 2.5 aka your crits hit for 600. With a 25% chance for this, AT LEAST 1 in 4 attacks will crit, and often you get several in a row.

Daedalas is the all around better choice from the perspective that the ONLY reasons you will build MKB is either A: to counter an evasion ability/item or B: you have an extra slot and can just use anything. In all honesty, I would put Crystalsis at exactly even with MKB for that reason, its useful everywhere. MKB loses out so much if you just randomly decide to grab it for the damage.
I like how you think that backtrack is an evasion and that having MKB will prevent Void from backtracking your attacks.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:39 PM   #31
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Well I mean yeah, you guys can do the Math and all, but you can't account for more situational stuff like hitting uphill, whether a ministun proc allows you to get in one extra hit to deal the final blow, whether the crit comes when the enemy is at 20 health etc etc.

Personally I find both items close enough in terms of damage to be used interchangeably, depending on the game situation.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Grandis View Post
In all honesty, I would put Crystalsis at exactly even with MKB for that reason, its useful everywhere. MKB loses out so much if you just randomly decide to grab it for the damage.
Dps-wise you need to have:

400 IAS(max) and
720dmg per hit

For crystalys to be the same as MKB, or higher than 720 for crystalys to be better.
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:00 PM   #33
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really that much? sven with something like armlet bkb crystalis seems more dangerous than sven with armlet bkb mkb ( forgetting about truestrike)
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by jskd View Post
really that much? sven with something like armlet bkb crystalis seems more dangerous than sven with armlet bkb mkb ( forgetting about truestrike)
Key word being 'seems'
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:44 PM   #35
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really that much? sven with something like armlet bkb crystalis seems more dangerous than sven with armlet bkb mkb ( forgetting about truestrike)
Crystalys +35dmg
20% of 1.75crit = 0.8+0.2*1.75=1.15=15%dmg increase

DMG(per hit)=(X+35)*1.15 where x=pre-item dmg per hit
APS=(1+Y/100)/BAT where y=pre-item IAS

DPS=1.15*(X+35)*(1+Y/100)/BAT

MKB

DPS = (X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT
.
.
.
For MKB(dps)=Crystalys(dps)

202400+1655Y=3XY
IF Y=MAX=400, x=720

For crystalys' best case scenario, i put Y=400%, at which point I made a mistake, not accounting the fact that, the 15% attack speed of MKB is not helping at all, because 400% IAS is the cap, so the MKB dps is:

DPS = (X+123)(1+Y/100)/BAT

MKB=Crystalys
(X+123)(1+Y/100)/BAT=1.15*(X+35)*(1+Y/100)/BAT
(X+123)(100+Y)=1.15*(X+35)*(100+Y)
X+123=1.15X+40.25
82.75=0.15x
X=552

SO.

For crystalys to be better than MKB, best case scenario, you need to have 552 dmg per hit, or higher.

Notice that is still pretty much unattainable, because that 552 dmg per hit, is after armor or whatever reductions.
Ex. For a mere 4 armor, and no other reductions, you need 690 hero dmg or more for crystalys to be better than MKB.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Mousatos View Post
Crystalys +35dmg
20% of 1.75crit = 0.8+0.2*1.75=1.15=15%dmg increase

DMG(per hit)=(X+35)*1.15 where x=pre-item dmg per hit
APS=(1+Y/100)/BAT where y=pre-item IAS

DPS=1.15*(X+35)*(1+Y/100)/BAT

MKB

DPS = (X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT
.
.
.
For MKB(dps)=Crystalys(dps)

202400+1655Y=3XY
IF Y=MAX=400, x=720

For crystalys' best case scenario, i put Y=400%, at which point I made a mistake, not accounting the fact that, the 15% attack speed of MKB is not helping at all, because 400% IAS is the cap, so the MKB dps is:

DPS = (X+123)(1+Y/100)/BAT

MKB=Crystalys
(X+123)(1+Y/100)/BAT=1.15*(X+35)*(1+Y/100)/BAT
(X+123)(100+Y)=1.15*(X+35)*(100+Y)
X+123=1.15X+40.25
82.75=0.15x
X=552

SO.

For crystalys to be better than MKB, best case scenario, you need to have 552 dmg per hit, or higher.

Notice that is still pretty much unattainable, because that 552 dmg per hit, is after armor or whatever reductions.
Ex. For a mere 4 armor, and no other reductions, you need 690 hero dmg or more for crystalys to be better than MKB.
One thing to note, sven has cleave and cleave pierces the damage it dealt to a target so if you attack a low armored unit other units with high armor should hate the low armored unit for taking the hit... though there's the 50% "reduction" since cleave doesn't inflict 100% dmg in it's AoE. So for instance Sylla has a high armor, but his bear doesn't stack a fury on top of the regulair cleave and it's nearly always easier to kill sylla if you attack the bear when both are pumping at your face.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:33 PM   #37
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One thing to note, sven has cleave and cleave pierces the damage it dealt to a target so if you attack a low armored unit other units with high armor should hate the low armored unit for taking the hit... though there's the 50% "reduction" since cleave doesn't inflict 100% dmg in it's AoE. So for instance Sylla has a high armor, but his bear doesn't stack a fury on top of the regulair cleave and it's nearly always easier to kill sylla if you attack the bear when both are pumping at your face.
Agreed, but for any amount at or below 385% IAS the dmg requirements are ridiculous.
IAS=385, DMG required with Empower from magnataur (105%cleave)=692
IAS=300, DMG required with Empower from magnataur (105%cleave)=740
IAS=200, DMG required with Empower from magnataur (105%cleave)=847

And while it's easy to justify crystalys usage by the relatively attainable dmg levels and longish duration with God's Strength, the high IAS is more problematic, even if you have the troll's ulti, it's not worth it for the amount of time it is actually better than MKB.

Conclusion: MKB is better than crystalys pretty much always.
I know, big surprise, a 5400gold item is better than a 2150gold item.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:20 PM   #38
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Crits will be better on a hero like Sven b/c he can cleave his crits for absurd amounts of damage. Crits also help with lifesteal; you can't lifesteal off of a melee bash; only ranged bashes.

Therefore on a hero with splash, cleave, illusions, or lifesteal, buriza will usually be the more effective option.

Dragon Knight is a special case, since you can actually splash the bash damage. So you can get either of the two, or even both.

Since manta is good on Drow, Buriza would be better than MKB to complement your illusions. On Clinkz, you could easily get either. Against a hero with evasion e.g WR, PA, or Riki, or against heroes with channeling spells (or even just long cast animations) MKB will almost always (99%) be better.

On heroes where the dps comes close, it's really up to your better judgement. Weigh the buildups, the effectiveness of the mini bash (interrupts), and just how much more effective the crits will become as (or if) the game progresses.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:28 PM   #39
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Well this thread was painful.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmafa View Post
If you're a ranged hero, there's always attacking uphill. MKB makes cracking tier 3s much easier.
doesnt work on towers in wc3..


e\ people bringing exact math and huge formulas into the discussion please refrain from doing it, it doesn't actually do much at all considering buriza has a higher damage output than mkb in just about every scenario. (the reasonably ones that mkb outdps buriza in are random evasion, if you've been drained by razor link for a while or if you're melee against omniult.)
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