MKB vs Daedalus

[Ari~]

Which should I get (assuming MKB's Truesight is not needed)?

What is the base damage threshold I should have crossed to make Daedalus more effective?

[Frost]

I'm under the impression that Daedalus will always be better unless you need that truestrike/mini-crit.

[CynthiaCrescent]

MKB is always the safer and more reliable choice. However, none of its components are as impressive as Crystallis.

[badmafa]

If you're a ranged hero, there's always attacking uphill. MKB makes cracking tier 3s much easier.

[Mclane23]

Originally Posted by CynthiaCrescent

MKB is always the safer and more reliable choice. However, none of its components are as impressive as Crystallis.

I wouldn't place javelin so far behind crystalis gold/dmg wise.

[Razer.Cyberias]

You have to ask a mechfag for the damage threshold thing. But i'm just going to say that choosing between mkb and dae is based on the situation, like if you are expecting more teamfights, then go for daedalus, or if u want good pushing power, take mkb.

[xpforever]

There isn't a fixed break-even point because you have to consider:
1. Attack speed from MKB
2. Damage type of minibash (always magic damage in dota 2).

[Mousatos]

Here's what i found:

Daedalus: +81 damage
25% 2.5x critical = .75 + .25*2.5 = 1.375 = 37.5% damage increase

DPS = APS * D

Define pre-existing damage as X, pre-existing AS as Y

Post-Daedalus damage

D = (X+81)*1.375 = 111.375 + 1.375X
AS = Y/100
APS = (1+Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (111.375 + 1.375X)(1+Y)/BAT

MKB: +88 damage + 15 AS
+100 damage 35% of the time = +35 damage per hit

MKB in reality = 88+35 = 123 damage per hit

Post-MKB damage
D = X+123
AS = (Y+15)/100
APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT

DPS = (X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT

Solving for X and Y

DPS output of MKB and Daedalus are the same when:

MKB - Daedalus
(X+123)(1.15+Y/100)/BAT = (111.375+1.375X)(1+Y/100)/BAT
(X+123)(115 + Y) = (111.375+1.375X)(100 + Y)

115X + XY + 14145 + 123Y = 11137.5 + 111.375Y + 137.5X + 1.375XY

3007.5 + 11.625Y = 22.5X + 0.375XY
30075 + 116.25Y = 225X + 3.75XY
120300 + 465Y = 900X + 15XY
8020 + 31Y = 60X + XY
8020 + 31Y = X(Y + 60)

(31Y + 8020)/(Y + 60) = X

If X > (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy Daedalus
If X < (31Y+8020)/(Y+60) buy MKB

Random example #1 (note: BAT is not accounted for but it doesn't really matter):
Skeleton King deals 200 damage per attack and has 200 AS.

(323)(1.15+2) ? (386.375)(1+2)
1017.45 < 1159.125

Daedalus gives more DPS

Skeleton King deals 100 damage per attack and has 200 AS
(223)(3.15) ? (248.875)(3)
702.45 < 746.625

Daedalus gives more DPS

Skeleton King deals 100 damage per attack and has 100 AS
(223)(2.25) ? (248.875)(2)
501.75 > 497.75

MKB gives more DPS

Conclusion: We all know that Daedalus sucks at low base damage levels. If I weren't lazy I could graph this out and whatnot but as of right now will leave it like this. I suppose what's useful if you are trying to flesh out a hero's item build you could set a damage level and see what AS you'd need to merit getting one item or the other...

If you do 100 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?

(223)(1.15 + Z/100) = (248.875)(1 + Z/100)
256.45 + 2.23Z = 248.875 + 2.48875Z
7.575 = .25875Z
29.275 = Z

So if you have 29 AS better to get MKB... and at 30 AS better to get Daedalus?

(223)(1.15+.29) ? (248.875)(1+.29)
321.12 > 321.04875

(223)(1.15+.3) ? (248.875)(1+.3)
323.35 < 323.5375

If you do 75 damage per attack, at what AS does it not matter between MKB and Daedalus?
(198)(1.15 + Z/100) = (214.5)(1+Z/100)
227.7 + 1.98Z = 214.5 + 2.145Z
13.2 = .165Z
80 = Z

So if you have 79 IAS better to get MKB and at 81 IAS better to get Daedalus.

(198)(1.15+.79) > (214.5)(1+.79)
384.12 > 383.955

(198)(1.96) < (214.5)(1.81)
388.08 < 388.245

Graph

[Erios]

Dunno why so much useless math up there

x = AS
y = damage

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)

So we must find when they do the same DPS.

x * (y+81) * 1.375 = (x+15) * (y+123)



Buriza > MKB pretty much always.

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Erios

So we must find when they do the same DPS.

x * (y+81) * 1.375 = (x+15) * (y+123)

How does that work if x=0?

Implying that when saying:
Buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375 (x=AS) is not the DPS formula. Instead of "x" it should be APS = (1+x/100)/BAT
Making Buriza(dps)=(y+81) * 1.375*(1+x/100)/BAT

Same with MKB. (APS = (1.15 + Y/100)/BAT)

[Erios]

Originally Posted by Mousatos

How does that work if x=0?

As I said, x = Attack Speed, not increased attack speed, your attack speed can't go below 20, even in the case that it would be 0, it means you are not making any attack at all, so MKB is better cause it allows you to do attacks...

Or in other words it means that if x = 0 there is never a point in which they do the same DPS, remember that it is an hyperbola, if you want the full graphic for negative values and much larger values input that in geogebra online application.

Of course this is considering you don't allow negative values for damage, but if that is the case then there are points in which you are healing the target if your damage is too low. Either way MKB should deal 0 DPS at -15 AS and at -123 damage, so the point (0, -123) should be in that graph since both deal equal DPS, 0.

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Erios

As I said, x = Attack Speed, not increased attack speed, your attack speed can't go below 20, even in the case that it would be 0, it means you are not making any attack at all, so MKB is better cause it allows you to do attacks...

Edited the post above.

Also, you are wrong. If x=0 => APS=1/(BAT)=1/1.7 attacks per second (in most cases, where BAT=1.7sec)

[Erios]

Originally Posted by Mousatos

Edited the post above.

Also, you are wrong. If x=0 => APS=1/(BAT)=1/1.7 attacks per second (in most cases where BAT=1.7sec)

As I said, x = AS not APS, BAT an irrelevant factor when comparing the items.


Suppose we have a hero that deals x damage, with y AS and z BAT.

What would be the increase % wise of DPS if we add x1 damage?
It would be (x+x1)/x

For AS is the same, as you see z is not involves in any of those calculations, meaning it is irrelevant to calculate the % increase.

If one gives more % increase than the other and z is irrelevant always then we can say that z is irrelevant when comparing what item brings more DPS to the hero.

[Rebuke]

nice 1k crit

but mis alll

rofl

[Erios]

Or if you want a more simple way to understand if that does not make sense to you.

The DPS is:

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT

When comparing

g(x): (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Since BAT != 0

f(x): (x+15) * (y+123) = x * (y+81) * 1.375

f(x) = g(x)

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Erios

As I said, x = AS not APS

Then your formula is not the DPS formula.
DPS=DMG(of one attack)*APS(attacks per second)
You replaced APS part with AS, making
x * (y+81) * 1.375
stand for nothing. What is DMG * AS?

Originally Posted by Erios

The DPS is:

buriza = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT
mkb = (x+15) * (y+123)/BAT

No.
APS=1+x/(BAT)

buriza= 1+x/(BAT)*(y+81) * 1.375
MKB=(1.15 + x/100)/BAT*(y+123)

[Erios]

Originally Posted by Mousatos

Then your formula is not the DPS formula.
DPS=DMG(of one attack)*APS(attacks per second)
You replaced APS part with AS, making
x * (y+81) * 1.375
stand for nothing. What is DMG * AS?


No.
APS=1+x/(BAT)

buriza= 1+x/(BAT)*(y+81) * 1.375
MKB=(1.15 + x/100)/BAT*(y+123)

That graph works perfectly, they do the same DPS at the following:

(x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Where x is you attack speed and y is your damage.

That graph yields the same result as the one I posted as I said already above, if you want to move the axis x by 100 units so you get IAS instead of AS do it, fine by me, not like I care.

If you are truly clueless about math then don't even try....



tl;dr You don't need to use the DPS formula, you need to use your brain.
Also stop confusing AS = IAS, a hero that is itemless and has 0 agility has an AS of 100 and an IAS of 0.

[CynthiaCrescent]

Originally Posted by Mclane23

I wouldn't place javelin so far behind crystalis gold/dmg wise.

The most attractive features of the MKB is its ability to make every hit counts, and more. I won't deny that in terms of raw damage buriza has an edge.

[Mousatos]

Originally Posted by Erios

That graph works perfectly, they do the same DPS at the following:

(x+15) * (y+123)/BAT = x * (y+81) * 1.375/BAT

Where x is you attack speed and y is your damage.

That graph yields the same result as the one I posted as I said already above, if you want to move the axis x by 100 units so you get IAS instead of AS do it, fine by me, not like I care.

If you are truly clueless about math then don't even try....

Let's make it simpler.
Let's say a hero has x=0 (no IAS AT ALL) and DMG=1.000.000.000 and (BAT) = 1

I put dmg so high because, for the following calculations, i will assume for simplicity's sake, the dmg of the items are negligible. What's 123 or 81 dmg when you have 1.000.000.000 dmg? Same thing with (BAT). Simplicity.

According to your calculations, MKB is always better here. Right? The graph line never reaches zero, making => IF:x=0 always be MKB>Buriza.


Let's see about this.
Normally DPS=1.000.000.000
With MKB DPS=1.000.000.000*1.15(from attack speed)=1.150.000.000
With buriza DPS=1.000.000.000*1.375(from crit multiplier)=1.375.000.000

So there is a point where buriza>MKB for x=0
So your graph is wrong.
So your math is wrong.
So AS is irrelevant with DPS, APS is relevant.

Originally Posted by Erios

tl;dr You don't need to use the DPS formula, you need to use your brain.
Also stop confusing AS = IAS, a hero that is itemless and has 0 agility has an AS of 100 and an IAS of 0.

Only thing, x=IAS in your math, otherwise, x+15 in MKB formula, is wrong.
The +15 is the IAS MKB gives, not the AS. How can you add AS and IAS?
Still wrong.

[eimeegaw]

ignoring the Math:
low dmg? yes: get mkb
1st or 2nd core item? yes: get mkb
high dmg? yes: get buriza
*but for drow ranger , i prefer getting buriza after yasha+hotd because she has a lot of dmg even though it would be her like 1st/2nd luxury item