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Old 09-05-2012, 05:18 PM   #1
Uncle_Zhuge
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Default The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?


After seeing plenty of TI matches, I always ended up seeing heroes farming freely in the long/easy lane, while the hero on the hard/short lane gets zero to a little bit of farm. The solo hero on the hard lane will only stay around to get exp, before getting killed by the tri-lane at least once.

What is the fun in such a lane? Can you imagine playing a hero and not do anything useful for the first 5 minutes, just hanging around and constantly be afraid of ganks? Sure you can stack the ancient camps or neutral camps, but that is just plain boring stuff. You will have to wait for your T1 tower to go down, so that the creeps will push further in and you have a chance to farm some creeps.

Even with wards to block creep camps, the problem can still exist. Especially considering the fact that you can do ridiculous creep camp pulls in DotA 2. (Like how all the camps in the dire side can be pulled.)

A duo or tri lane on the hard lane usually ends up in a disaster. You can see from the TI matches. Most of the times a tri-lane on the easy lane easily wins over the tri-lane on the hard lane.

The problem actually surfaces in pubs as well, high or mid level. People refuse to go to the hard/short lane, as they are not able to control the lane as well as the long/easy lane. The problem gets worse, considering people love to jungle in pubs. So you have 2 people on the long lane, one mid and then the poor guy to take the short lane by himself. And that poor guy has some shitty solo hero like Spiritbreaker.

Then finally, not all heroes can solo the hard lane. There are like ten heroes or so who can solo the hard lane, without dying like mad and still having decent farm. Put a melee carry hero who needs farm on the hard lane and you have a recipe for disaster.

Thoughts? Is the hard lane fine as it is? Or are there ways to improve it?
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Demon's ninja tactics and you're fine.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

this is a difficult problem realy. the only real way to fix it would be to make both side lanes equal wich would suck tbh.

Maybe the problem cant realy be solved but lessened by making giving players less opportunity to creeppull and increasing the amount of wardspots that give good vision and block spawns.
that way counterwarding pulls will be made harder and the long solo will have enough vision to not get ganked constantly.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

can someone tell me how the hard lane used to be run before it became the hard lane? all i can really remember is the trilane era before .48b for some reason.

anyways something should be done about this i think. it takes no skill to sit at the tower and wait for creeps to come and it takes stupid levels of skill to actually go and grab farm
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

if radiant, top is offline/hard lane/long lane, i guess you got some misunderstanding

the lane is good as it is, but i guess radiant got a overall advantage, their long lane can pull and stack ancients with easy and the short lane of radiant cant pull every creep camp unlike dire
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Pubs don't play on the level of TI. Warding the pull spot makes it a simple duo lane. Killing the person who pulls or are left behind is easy as well. Or you can push the tower down. It's not a pointless lane unless you send someone solo against a strong duo e.g., AM/CM and SK/Lina.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

You really should see my BH's solo "hard lane" games,on average i outfarm the enemies' trilane carry.

Same with clock,clinkz.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

i think the difference between scourge and sentinel side is quite prominent.
The sentinel's long lane is somewhat safer than the scourge's. In the sentinel's it takes longer to go in between the 2 towers due to the secret shop having weird tree distribution and the ancient is farther than the lane itself. The ancient camp is easier to be stacked from the middle lane.

For the scourge's, there is a straight path from the river going to the area in between the 2 towers. The ancient camp is nearer to the lane and is easier to be stacked from the btm lane. Plus the roshan camp is in the scourge's favor

A bit out of topic, but this makes a BM btm lane scourge having an easier time than top lane sentinel
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

i consider myself as a good (better than any of my friends) hard-lane player, and its pretty easy. you just need to pick fag heroes and make fag tactics like prophet pulling creeps with trees

in dota 2, i dont know what MM level i am, but the lanes are the exact same. people dont go mad crazy strats, like trilane, they just go 2-1-2, and gl hf.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonw0w View Post
if radiant, top is offline/hard lane/long lane, i guess you got some misunderstanding

the lane is good as it is, but i guess radiant got a overall advantage, their long lane can pull and stack ancients with easy and the short lane of radiant cant pull every creep camp unlike dire
I usually call the lanes by this:

Radiant top lane/Dire bottom lane: Short/hard lane
Radiant bottom lane/Dire top lane: Long/easy lane

I don't think it matters much on how easier which side can pull Ancients. Even if you made them both equal, a hero on the hard lane is a hero without farm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semi-Formal View Post
Pubs don't play on the level of TI. Warding the pull spot makes it a simple duo lane. Killing the person who pulls or are left behind is easy as well. Or you can push the tower down. It's not a pointless lane unless you send someone solo against a strong duo e.g., AM/CM and SK/Lina.
Yes, I do know that not all pubs will do counterwarding. But if you have a jungler in the enemy woods, your duo lane combo may not be strong enough to deter their pull of other creep camps.

Beside, it is much easier to pull safely than trying to gank the enemy near their tower. At day time, the enemy has so much vision that they can tell whether you are trying to mess with their pull. They can back off a little and harass you at a distance, while still being close to their towers.

And like I said earlier, most of the pubbers love to jungle. It will definitely be a 1-2-2 (Radiant Side) situation most of the time.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Most of the time its 2-1-1 on radiant with a jungler. I don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Zhuge View Post
I usually call the lanes by this:

Radiant top lane/Dire bottom lane: Short/hard lane
Radiant bottom lane/Dire top lane: Long/easy lane
It's usually better to just call it safe/easy lane and long/off lane. I don't know who mixed up short/long but now nobody can seem to agree on which is short and which is long.
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

At the pro level trilaning to protect the carry has big risks, it doesn't happen in pubs and simply warding the creeps will generally stop pulling.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

No, it happens in pubs. I've seen it just about every other game where the hard lane is simply a suicide hero with absolutely no chance of competing for creeps, exp or gold, and stays level 1 for the first 10 minutes or more. And more damning, it doesn't matter. That hero will catch up in the next 5 minutes by hovering around a few kills. This game is so imbalanced and degenerate
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Have two in the hard lane then.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Played sk solo long as dire...got 26-0-10~12 scored, carried the damm game.
Hard lane has a pruporse, to do not burden the reliable carries of your team, to prevent the enemy carry from being useful. Also it has the "safest" tower or at least the one that provides less vision to the enemy plus easier access to secret shop.
Proof
Match id:36853627 average pub level.
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Last edited by Disaster_Lord; 09-05-2012 at 08:12 PM.
Old 09-05-2012, 08:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

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Originally Posted by SECXIIKILLA View Post
Have two in the hard lane then.
That requires using your head to come up with a solution. So that's a no-go as well.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

meh, just give the offlane hero more possibilities to mess with the enemy lane or to be useful for the team in other way.

The pull on radiant side and ancient stacking on dire side is a good thing, maybe make it uniform along the lanes so you can do both no matter the lane?
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

Funniest thing is that your teammates will even flame you, when you didn't farm well on the hardlane as solo that is not able to manage it all that well
It is a tactics decision and the normal way of laning the heroes kind of includes the lowest risk. On the other hand, if you can pull of a successful tri on hardlane you can possibly prevent 2-3 enemies from getting their needed farm until they rotate lanes (which also costs them farm).

The only way to stop it is seeting up jungles on both sides of middle lane, but then again this would make DotA more boring because of less diversity. I think it is nice that the lanes play differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnymarcell View Post
in dota 2, i dont know what MM level i am, but the lanes are the exact same. people dont go mad crazy strats, like trilane, they just go 2-1-2, and gl hf.
about every single Dota 2 match I play it is 1 - 1 - (2+1)
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Short/Hard lane -> Pointless lane?

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Originally Posted by z10 View Post
Funniest thing is that your teammates will even flame you, when you didn't farm well on the hardlane as solo that is not able to manage it all that well
It is a tactics decision and the normal way of laning the heroes kind of includes the lowest risk. On the other hand, if you can pull of a successful tri on hardlane you can possibly prevent 2-3 enemies from getting their needed farm until they rotate lanes (which also costs them farm).

The only way to stop it is seeting up jungles on both sides of middle lane, but then again this would make DotA more boring because of less diversity. I think it is nice that the lanes play differently.


about every single Dota 2 match I play it is 1 - 1 - (2+1)
well, i rarely needed to take offlane, but i when i needed i took it with prophet and DS. they are the top 2 offlaners imo.
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