[Holy Knight] Lok'tar ogar - Victory or death

GeneralCash · 12-23-2009, 10:47 AM

tof > penitence early

the nuke dmg is much more than added dmg from penitence at this point and you don't really need the slow to land stomps if you come from behind or wait for allies to use stuns/slows. actually, the slow is not strong enough for creeps to catch up until lvl 4 penitence which is at lvl 9 - that's way too late.

UTDC.Justin · 12-24-2009, 04:42 AM

Penitence is much stronger early on for your creeps and allies for ganking. The slow is great and the damage amplification is very important. ToF is more of a TP/midgame scaling skill since teamfights and pushes are starting and penitence's slow effect is less useful (although the +dmg is nice).

ph34rpet3 · 12-24-2009, 03:57 PM

the new creeps are good with chen, flying = semi-ward, its like using a skill to save 200 bucks

fremdlaender · 12-29-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph34rpet3

the new creeps are good with chen, flying = semi-ward, its like using a skill to save 200 bucks

The new creeps have the same problem like the Troll Priest, the Kobold Taskmaster or the Satyr Trickster. While they may seem good in theory, they lack damage and HP what means they lack ganking power.
When playing Chen you should not have have problems buying wards because you don't need the money that much.

Using the new creeps will become the job of some Helm of the Dominator users, I think.

Btw, added a new replay:

UTDC.Justin · 12-31-2009, 02:20 AM

Will be re-added to Spotlight and published section when the guide is restored (there was an error)

GodLike17 · 12-31-2009, 02:35 PM

When I'm trying to watch that replay, "asilaywanking" is Chen and "D_arE is Lion oO

Edit: Lol, sry for being dumb. I watched abit further and saw that you swapped xD

UTDC.Justin · 01-03-2010, 04:00 AM

Fix'd and restor'd

fremdlaender · 01-03-2010, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UTDC.Justin

Fix'd and restor'd

Again, thank you. Will never happen again, I promise.

Added even newer replay.
Recommended watch.

Lzn · 01-03-2010, 01:28 PM

intro pic FTW :)

Lycan · 01-03-2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Yes, ArtStyle gets ToF first, and yes, he gets Necronomicon at the end but that's not the important part of this replay.
Awesome performance by ArtStyle ganking the bottom lane with the help of Venge and Mirana.

SO FUCKIN BUSTED XD

fremdlaender · 01-03-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycan

SO FUCKIN BUSTED XD

Do I have to respond again and explain why I don't want Necro in a 'noob' guide?
Goddamnit if you want to buy Necro do so and stop annoying me.

Lycan · 01-03-2010, 09:08 PM

Chill out lad i'm just janking your chain :P

elnio · 01-14-2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fremdlaender

Do I have to respond again and explain why I don't want Necro in a 'noob' guide?
Goddamnit if you want to buy Necro do so and stop annoying me.

Ok, I read the whole tread, and this is the only time I agree with you about Necro. Necro is good, it is just you and the folks who read this probably cannot control 4-5 units perfectly at the same time. pro players.... lets just ignore them, they can do anything.

actually I would likely recommend most pub players against necro for any hero, even for rexxar, lion or whatever because they just suck at micro.
the only case I use necro is for panda. I know this is, well, you call it the nubest idea, but, cast macro, cast ulti and then just suicide attack to the tower, who the heck care about micro =]] I play just for fun so calling me pub or nub is just fine.

edit:for the remaining pub player, getting necro is fine. you know why? you are thinking for nub but not as nub. there are folks that is so new to dota that to figure out how to buy agahnim may cost them 10 minutes of running around the map to look at the shops and forever to get enough 2700 gold to buy the mystic staff. this is the reason s&y is usually the first lev 3 (the old way to call it) a newbie can learn how to assemble. necro is about as easy to buy and build as s&y. I don't really think a true nub can use ward and dust....

that's all I want to say about necro.... man... i remember just 1 week after i started to play dota, farming butterfly for void costed me 40 minutes in the jungle playing with fellow nubs who do not how to navigate to jungle yet. It was 6.14....

fremdlaender · 01-14-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnio

Ok, I read the whole tread, and this is the only time I agree with you about Necro. Necro is good, it is just you and the folks who read this probably cannot control 4-5 units perfectly at the same time. pro players.... lets just ignore them, they can do anything.

actually I would likely recommend most pub players against necro for any hero, even for rexxar, lion or whatever because they just suck at micro.
the only case I use necro is for panda. I know this is, well, you call it the nubest idea, but, cast macro, cast ulti and then just suicide attack to the tower, who the heck care about micro =]] I play just for fun so calling me pub or nub is just fine.

edit:for the remaining pub player, getting necro is fine. you know why? you are thinking for nub but not as nub. there are folks that is so new to dota that to figure out how to buy agahnim may cost them 10 minutes of running around the map to look at the shops and forever to get enough 2700 gold to buy the mystic staff. this is the reason s&y is usually the first lev 3 (the old way to call it) a newbie can learn how to assemble. necro is about as easy to buy and build as s&y. I don't really think a true nub can use ward and dust....

that's all I want to say about necro.... man... i remember just 1 week after i started to play dota, farming butterfly for void costed me 40 minutes in the jungle playing with fellow nubs who do not how to navigate to jungle yet. It was 6.14....

Hmhm... that's not my point, acutally. ^^
It is right, new players may be overextend with controlling too much units, but if you are learning DotA you have to get used to it.
Right, a guide is mainly for new players who don't know all aspects of an hero, but that does not keep them from practising their micro.
At least if they want to play Chen or other certain heroes.

My point is:
Rexxar and Atropos are 'fire and forget' heroes to a certain extent. You can't do much after using your ultimate and the other active damage spell.
Also, are not really item dependant or have at least no other items which would be better for them (VERY important point).

I would never ever suggest to skip Necro on Atropos or Rexxar because it's core even if the worst player controls the hero.

But regarding Chen...
You have to constantly micro your creeps and keep your hero out of danger because of your paper HP.
You should not farm very much but if you have money, you should spend it for items which are more important to your team, namely Wards and Mekansm because you absolutely need it.
Aghanims is the extension to this.
Necronomicon is more useful the earlier you get it, but the time you CAN get it will be at best around the 30-40min mark and that's just too late for Necro1 or 2.

Btw. Regarding 6.66:
Doom seems to become a ever better counter to Chen. As if it wasn't enough that he can eat your creeps and silence you forever, now he can take the abilities of your creeps and use them against you.
I'm really worried about Doom now, acutally. ^^

But that's the only change that affects Chen in some way. Nothing really exciting.

Burninglegion · 02-15-2010, 02:05 AM

Lol great guide dude, but I think you should mention Necro3 as an optional item, micromanaging 3 creeps and ur hero is hard but there are people that can micromanage very well. Necromonion can pump up the power of your creeps with ms aura and mana burn.

zAlph · 02-16-2010, 03:11 PM

The intro pic is soo cute xD

D4rKAv3nGeR · 02-16-2010, 03:21 PM

Nice Guide.Really innovative title.

screamdarren- · 03-09-2010, 11:19 AM

The best thing is that, when a naix use ultimate on your persuaded creep, you can use test of faith on the creep. Bags a kill. But if he is relucatant to come out and you are impaitient, persuade creeps until the one being consumed is dead from the max cap.

mxma · 04-03-2010, 10:19 AM

Great guide even without posting the screenshots I'd rate you 10. so yeah, 10.

fremdlaender · 04-07-2010, 02:50 AM

Update 6.67:

Chen
- Test of Faith cooldown from 30 to 30/28/26/24

Well, a buff is a buff.
Nothing what I'd call a major change but it's good to see a buff for this skill.
I'm happy for everything as I recently discovered how much better Enchantress in some situations is. :/

Edit: I will update the replays soon if possible to match the current WC3 and DotA version.
Edit2: It will need some time, my PC died.

12-23-2009, 10:47 AM	#61
GeneralCash Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 651	Lok'tar ogar - Victory or death tof > penitence early the nuke dmg is much more than added dmg from penitence at this point and you don't really need the slow to land stomps if you come from behind or wait for allies to use stuns/slows. actually, the slow is not strong enough for creeps to catch up until lvl 4 penitence which is at lvl 9 - that's way too late.

12-24-2009, 04:42 AM	#62
UTDC.Justin Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,677	New Comment Penitence is much stronger early on for your creeps and allies for ganking. The slow is great and the damage amplification is very important. ToF is more of a TP/midgame scaling skill since teamfights and pushes are starting and penitence's slow effect is less useful (although the +dmg is nice).

12-24-2009, 03:57 PM	#63
ph34rpet3 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 265	New Comment the new creeps are good with chen, flying = semi-ward, its like using a skill to save 200 bucks

12-31-2009, 02:20 AM	#65
UTDC.Justin Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,677	New Comment Will be re-added to Spotlight and published section when the guide is restored (there was an error)

12-31-2009, 02:35 PM	#66
GodLike17 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 66	Re: Lok'tar ogar - Victory or death When I'm trying to watch that replay, "asilaywanking" is Chen and "D_arE is Lion oO Edit: Lol, sry for being dumb. I watched abit further and saw that you swapped xD

01-03-2010, 04:00 AM	#67
UTDC.Justin Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,677	New Comment Fix'd and restor'd

01-03-2010, 01:28 PM	#69
Lzn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Serbia Posts: 97	New Comment intro pic FTW :)

01-03-2010, 09:08 PM	#72
Lycan Forum Staff Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Netherlands Posts: 12,894 Blog Entries: 10	New Comment Chill out lad i'm just janking your chain :P

02-15-2010, 02:05 AM	#75
Burninglegion Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 352	New Comment Lol great guide dude, but I think you should mention Necro3 as an optional item, micromanaging 3 creeps and ur hero is hard but there are people that can micromanage very well. Necromonion can pump up the power of your creeps with ms aura and mana burn.

02-16-2010, 03:11 PM	#76
zAlph Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Malaysia Posts: 173	New Comment The intro pic is soo cute xD

02-16-2010, 03:21 PM	#77
D4rKAv3nGeR Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hell's Gates Posts: 923	Re: Lok'tar ogar - Victory or death Nice Guide.Really innovative title.

03-09-2010, 11:19 AM	#78
screamdarren- Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 394	New Comment The best thing is that, when a naix use ultimate on your persuaded creep, you can use test of faith on the creep. Bags a kill. But if he is relucatant to come out and you are impaitient, persuade creeps until the one being consumed is dead from the max cap.

04-03-2010, 10:19 AM	#79
mxma Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Inside Posts: 945	New Comment Great guide even without posting the screenshots I'd rate you 10. so yeah, 10.