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Old 11-24-2009, 08:17 AM   #1
Lycan
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Default Some Questions Regarding Map Knowledge


How big is the entire map in Range,

(delta) movement/(delta) time = Movementspeed

how is movementspeed coded ?

How Does Sight work, when watching up hill fog is dark, how much difference in height must there be to have a hill fogdisadvantage.
Lets say i have 1200 sightrange downhill i get full obstructed sight, uphill i get none?

How is the shadow of a tree counted? Trees obstruct vision how much does a single tree hide when standing in front of it?

How much is the range between bottem lane sentinel 3th -> 2nd tower and 2nd->1st tower

same for middle and top, and for the according scourge towers.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #2
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Lol too many questions ^^

Quote:
How Does Sight work, when watching up hill fog is dark, how much difference in height must there be to have a hill fogdisadvantage.
Lets say i have 1200 sightrange downhill i get full obstructed sight, uphill i get none?

How is the shadow of a tree counted? Trees obstruct vision how much does a single tree hide when standing in front of it?
These are hardcoded in wc3. You can't see uphill even if you have 2500 sight range. Trees block more the closer you are to the tree. When you get closer to the tree, the angle which you cannot see becomes bigger.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisPeace View Post
Lol too many questions ^^


These are hardcoded in wc3. You can't see uphill even if you have 2500 sight range. Trees block more the closer you are to the tree. When you get closer to the tree, the angle which you cannot see becomes bigger.
but how much must the difference in height be to be accounted for as uphill.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
but how much must the difference in height be to be accounted for as uphill.
Elevation level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan
how is movementspeed coded ?
What?

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Old 11-24-2009, 12:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
How big is the entire map in Range
The playable dimensions would be 15104x15360.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
how is movementspeed coded ?
Movement speed is hardcoded, and is produced as movement in any other map (or game for that matter). The unit plays a walking (or other movement related) animation and is then moved between certain nodes at a set interval (I'd like to know the interval in Warcraft 3, but I'm busy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
How Does Sight work, when watching up hill fog is dark, how much difference in height must there be to have a hill fogdisadvantage.
Lets say i have 1200 sightrange downhill i get full obstructed sight, uphill i get none?
Warcraft 3 works with elevation points, or levels, where each level above your current one will obstruct your sight. When looking up a slope your sight will begin to become obstructed about 100 in range before reaching the elevation level above your current one.

The elevation sight obstruction does not apply to units with movement type flying.

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How is the shadow of a tree counted? Trees obstruct vision how much does a single tree hide when standing in front of it?
All doodads obstruct your fog in a circular sector shape where the central angle is 45 degrees. The sectors are located like this;

Code:
\  |  /
-    -
/  |  \
You'll obviously have to use some imagination.

Depending on your angle compared to that of the doodad one or two of the sectors on the opposite side will be blocked. A fun fact is that if you locate yourself at a 0 to 90 degree angle close enough to the tree it won't obstruct your vision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
How much is the range between bottem lane sentinel 3th -> 2nd tower and 2nd->1st tower

same for middle and top, and for the according scourge towers.
Can't be arsed with reading the code to find the spawning locations right now, deciphering the Divided We Stand code.
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Old 11-24-2009, 12:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e00E View Post
Can't be arsed with reading the code to find the spawning locations right now, deciphering the Divided We Stand code.
Misunderstood.

Just say which towers you mean and I'll give you the distances.

Greets
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cáno View Post
Misunderstood.

Just say which towers you mean and I'll give you the distances.

Greets
Cáno



Total map: 15104*15360
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12
13.
14.
15.



This is the basic idea, the distances between the towers is good for estimations. And with those ranges i want to figure out a kind of estimation formula how long it takes to "walk" certain distances. So if movementspeed is 522 how long will it take you to walk 1000k distance, and if movementspeed is 300 how long will it take you to walk 1000k distance. And IIRC if movementspeed was 100 you would be standing still, and if it was lower than 100 you would be turning backwards?

If it's easier to tell the range differences between the tower assuming straight lines around all of them, just tell me them in that way.
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:25 PM   #8
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A little clue.
Movement Speed is given in units per second.

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Old 11-24-2009, 01:31 PM   #9
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and mapsize is 15k*15k in units as well right ?
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Old 11-24-2009, 01:36 PM   #10
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Yes. Not 'as well' though, distance (or range) is given in units. Movement Speed is given in units per second.
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:07 PM   #11
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^continued, And those units are equal ofc. That's what you have asked i think.
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:09 PM   #12
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so

in order to walk a distance of 15000 units when i have 300 ms i will take me,

15000/300= 50seconds ?
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Old 11-24-2009, 02:12 PM   #13
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exactly. the reason Cáno told you is that actually. You can measure distances with a clockwatch and a hero with some ms ( 400 would be fine ) or a Courier Crow with Boots for flying ( flying courier got 350 ms +50 = 400 )
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:30 PM   #14
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I attempted to get Towers' coordinates and here are the results:

It may be a bit hard to read. :P

Before I calculate the distances I'd like to ask some questions:
  • the World Tree (WT) would be on the right side of the second level 4 Protector according to coordinates,
  • the coordinates are set in a weird way: In most cases units are created, then their coordinates are saved, the units are destroyed and placed again with previously saved coordinates, why is it done like that?
  • what are these huge code blocks on the beggining of the code which are basically parts of (outdated?) main function and are never called?
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:19 PM   #15
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DotA uses a program to inline many utility spawning and initialization functions into main, for some reason these inlined functions are not removed, even though they are never called.

Well I'm guessing it's a program, I suppose it could be done manually. o_o
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:25 AM   #16
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I'll measure the tower distances, old-school way. Take PoTM, with 300 ms. Watch the clock and tell her to run to each tower. The secondsx300=distance between towers.

Example: Sentinel 3 to Sentinel 2 takes 6.5 seconds. Thats 1950 away.

EDIT:
Just got done running around the map counting seconds and 1/2 seconds or 1/4 seconds. I double checked the times by repeating the process a 2nd time. Because I can't measure exactly fractions of seconds the distances may be off +/- 150.

Even though tower distances aren't the same on both sides, creep spawn locations are set at the correct distances to make them meet at the correct spots.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:45 PM   #17
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This thread is awesome!
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valomerkki View Post
This thread is awesome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cáno View Post
Thanks for sharing.

Greets
Cáno
"Hardcore Shit" You can use this calculator to measure any distance by entering the coordinates in Cáno's post.
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:57 PM   #19
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Thanks a lot Guys

With the numbers and program provided by you guys

i've made this map



It doesn't differ to much for dark.88 his numbers so his way of calcing does make sense but i wanted the precise numbers.

Is it possible to give me the Coordinates of The higher and the Lower Rune spawns as well as the one of the Frozen Throne?


1.(-6496:-4832) T3 Sentinel Top Lane
2.(-6792:-1312) T2 Sentinel Top Lane
3.(-6112:1504) T1 Sentinel Top Lane
4.(-4704:5920) T1 Scourge Top Lane
5.(32:5920) T2 Scourge Top Lane
6.(2976:5792) T3 Scourge Top Lane
7.(-4576:-4832) T3 Sentinel Mid Lane
8.(-3488:-3296) T2 Sentinel Mid Lane
9.(-1504:-1824) T1 Sentinel Mid Lane
10.(1056:-96) T1 Scourge Mid Lane
11.(2528:1824) T2 Scourge Mid Lane
12.(3936:3488) T3 Scourge Mid Lane
13.(-4512:-6752) T3 Sentinel Bot Lane
14.(-544:-6688) T2 Sentinel Bot Lane
15.(4960:-6752) T1 Sentinel Bot Lane
16.(6048:-2080) T1 Scourge Bot Lane
17.(6304:-96) T2 Scourge Bot Lane
18.(6368:2528) T3 Scourge Bot Lane

19.(-5920:5984) T4 Sentinel
20.(-5664:-6240) T4 Sentinel
21.(-5632:-5944) The World Tree
22.(4832:4832) T4 Scourge
23.(5152:4512) T4 Scourge
24.( The Frozen Throne
25.( Lower Rune Spawn
26.( Higher Rune Spawn
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
Thanks a lot Guys
With the numbers and program provided by you guys

i've made this map

It doesn't differ to much for dark.88 his numbers so his way of calcing does make sense but i wanted the precise numbers.
Cool, It's nice to see the exact numbers. However, the distance between the towers at the corners of the map aren't realistic. There are trees in the way making the path curve, thus making the distance farther than going directly there, but I'm sure you already knew that.

That's why those numbers on your map and my map are much different, but the rest are almost exact!
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:11 PM   #21
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The map image you provided is a bit small. It can be read however.
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:06 PM   #22
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Frozen Throne 5184,4864
Higher Rune -2352,1648
Lower Rune 3008,-2832
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cáno
the coordinates are set in a weird way: In most cases units are created, then their coordinates are saved, the units are destroyed and placed again with previously saved coordinates, why is it done like that?
I'm 90% sure it is because of memory leaks, locations are one thing that leak and you have to do silly things like that to prevent it.
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsfodrugz View Post
I'm 90% sure it is because of memory leaks, locations are one thing that leak and you have to do silly things like that to prevent it.
Nah, it's a single function. And these are not locations but reals. How can a location leak anyway?

Level 4 Towers have (-5920,-5984), (-5664, -6420) coordinates and the World Tree is located at (-5632, -5994). It doesn't fit. Could someone check this? I don't know, maybe I'm looking at wrong numbers.

Greets
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cáno View Post
Nah, it's a single function. And these are not locations but reals. How can a location leak anyway?

Greets
Cáno
There are 2 reals that are converted into a single point, and points leak. It's because once you create that point, the world editor saves that point in its memory til the end of the game. If it happened every single time a dummy unit was created it would build up and build up and slow the game down. I don't know why Ice doesn't just remove them with a jass code after each spell.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.88 View Post
I don't know why Ice doesn't just remove them with a jass code after each spell.
DotA doesn't use locations. It's obvious that variables which are not deleted are stored in memory. We don't call that leaking.
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cáno View Post
DotA doesn't use locations. It's obvious that variables which are not deleted are stored in memory. We don't call that leaking.

Greets
Cáno
It's called leaking when you lose the pointer to that variable.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:19 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.88 View Post
Cool, It's nice to see the exact numbers. However, the distance between the towers at the corners of the map aren't realistic. There are trees in the way making the path curve, thus making the distance farther than going directly there, but I'm sure you already knew that.

That's why those numbers on your map and my map are much different, but the rest are almost exact!
I'm using this knowledge for a subsection in my guide called "Anticipation" and well basic rule is + 10% from obstacles eg. trees and ramps.

I just Realised on the actual distance from mid tower to the runes Scourge has a slight Advantage though on vision Sentinel still outshines scourge.

this one should be big enough :P?




Legenda:

1.(-6496:-4832) T3 Sentinel Top Lane
2.(-6792:-1312) T2 Sentinel Top Lane
3.(-6112:1504) T1 Sentinel Top Lane
4.(-4704:5920) T1 Scourge Top Lane
5.(32:5920) T2 Scourge Top Lane
6.(2976:5792) T3 Scourge Top Lane
7.(-4576:-4832) T3 Sentinel Mid Lane
8.(-3488:-3296) T2 Sentinel Mid Lane
9.(-1504:-1824) T1 Sentinel Mid Lane
10.(1056:-96) T1 Scourge Mid Lane
11.(2528:1824) T2 Scourge Mid Lane
12.(3936:3488) T3 Scourge Mid Lane
13.(-4512:-6752) T3 Sentinel Bot Lane
14.(-544:-6688) T2 Sentinel Bot Lane
15.(4960:-6752) T1 Sentinel Bot Lane
16.(6048:-2080) T1 Scourge Bot Lane
17.(6304:-96) T2 Scourge Bot Lane
18.(6368:2528) T3 Scourge Bot Lane

19: (-5600:-5728) T4 Sentinel
20: (-5280:-6112) T4 Sentinel
21: (-5632:-6144) The World Tree
22.(4832:4832) T4 Scourge
23.(5152:4512) T4 Scourge
24.(5184:4864) The Frozen Throne
25.(-2352:1648) Higher Rune Spawn
26.(3008:-2832) Lower Rune Spawn


Quote:
Originally Posted by Protomanx1 View Post
Frozen Throne 5184,4864
Higher Rune -2352,1648
Lower Rune 3008,-2832
Thanks ^^
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:46 PM   #29
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If you want more to include you could always grab the screen size fact.


Image borrowed from DonTomaso

Means that you have more time to dodge missiles coming from the upper left/upper right corner from that the missile enters your screen under the presumption that you have your view centered around your hero.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:58 PM   #30
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If you look at object's 19th, 20th, 21st coordinates you will see that they not fit. Therefore I ask for validation (for the third time). I obviously must have done something wrong but don't know what.

Greets
Cáno
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cáno View Post
If you look at object's 19th, 20th, 21st coordinates you will see that they not fit. Therefore I ask for validation (for the third time). I obviously must have done something wrong but don't know what.

Greets
Cáno
19: (-5600.0,-5728.0)
20: (-5280.0,-6112.0)
21: (-5632.0,-6144.0)

These should be the correct values.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:19 AM   #32
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can some one give me a line on a map with 200 range on it... somehow i'm doing something wrong with the wards and their sightranges when they've been placed.
It looks like ancient sentinel camp hill ward spot requires 3000 AoE instead of 1600 as those wards actually give....
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Old 12-28-2009, 10:44 AM   #33
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Radius of Tiny's Avalache AoE circle is 200.
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:43 AM   #34
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Seems to be some misunderstanding here. 3DM@RK's answer is correct (the pointers), problem being, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) you need to create a unit first to save it's coordinates in a variable.

If you don't do that, you don't have any handle referencing the coordinates as reals (you could name it pointer, as well, but I like to talk about pointers only in real memory managment systems), which means they are lost in memory, e.g. you can't delete them anymore. Doesn't happen with integers btw.

The game would slow down everytime a trigger creates something without having a handle pointing to that object, because it would stay in memory, hence a "memory leak". It's not your memory leaking, but it's meant that stuff stays in memory, "leaks" through the referencing system and is not adressable anymore, hence it stays in memory until it's removed by force (for example, cutting off the energy supply).

That's why Ice made it to create the object, save it's coordinates in a (real) variable, then deletes it and creates a new one with the coordinates out of the real.

Quick introduction: a pointer points the "program" to where it can find the actual content of the variable (a variable is more or less just a readable name for humans). If you delete the pointer and don't remove the variable BEFORE, it's like you (the application) were in a labyrinth (= memory) with signs (pointers) showing you the center (place of variable in memory), you place your money (variable content) there, get out (don't use the variable atm), and someone removes the signs (deletes the pointer). You won't find your money again until someone plains the whole labyrinth (removes the leaked items). Hope that helps for the non-developers here.

PS: Still learning JASS, free feel to correct me.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:24 PM   #35
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I know this is necrobumping but this thread contains a lot of information so you guys don't have to find out the most of it again

I found out that on the top lane just al little in the back of the lvl 2 tower you can stand with a hero with 1800 vision like furion) you gain sight inside scourge base a little acros their lvl 3 tower, but since wards only grant 1600, i'm wondering if i can find the perfect spot for the ward if it's distance becomes straight instead of a slight angle since i hope the angle makes up for the 200 AoE reach.

Screenshot for explanation.

Furion (1800)+ base Vision


So is there a place where this ward can go to show it ?



So my request is can i have the coordinate of the place my hero is standing since the scourge lvl 3 tower is (2976:5792) T3 Scourge Top Lane)

So distract 2976 - 1600 = 1376:5792 This is where he is standing. and should be able to see inside the base. However the dota map isn't a square so this will most likely not account.

The dota map is \_/ in shape so i might need to place it a little more towards the north. 2400vs 1500 widthx 1180 in height. So the actual x value of the place my hero should be standing could be


Credits to Don.


So the entire map size height = 15360 (2400vs1500)x 15104 (1180)

So by this it should be possible to find out whether it's possible to place a ward on that hill (since it equals in height with the base) or not. And yes it's not gonna be easy to find it. But i haven't became a decent warding by just asuming nor copy pasting other their wards.

And no the uberward does not show sight in base yet it does cover a bigger area but no the area i'm interested in.
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:32 AM   #36
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The DotA map IS a square (look at your previous pictures in this thread)

The \_/ shape you're refering to is the shape of your screen : 2400 distance on the top, 1500 distance on the bottom, and 1180 distance in height.

Read http://www.playdota.com/forums/361727/vision/ first.

The best you can do in terms of vision is to put the ward in the red band in this image :

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Old 12-07-2010, 10:18 AM   #37
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Thanks so it doesn't exist , there's a possibility for one to act like on but it doesn't show the tower.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:00 PM   #38
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At the risk of edging our way toward strategy discussion, there are other ward spots that can give the vision you seem to be looking for. This one gives full vision of the tower, rax, and significant vision behind the melee rax, as well.

You can place it from below the ledge. There's a lot to say about trying to ward there, but 99% of that is strategy.

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Old 12-08-2010, 03:39 PM   #39
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At the risk of edging our way toward strategy discussion, there are other ward spots that can give the vision you seem to be looking for. This one gives full vision of the tower, rax, and significant vision behind the melee rax, as well.

You can place it from below the ledge. There's a lot to say about trying to ward there, but 99% of that is strategy.

that's true but that ward "only" grants base sight which is only 1 keypoint :P
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:02 AM   #40
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This thread has some good info. Should post some of this stuff in strategy. Hopefully someone will make some guides with heroes like windrunner and butcher using the distance guide here. Keep up the good work guys.
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