[Remake] Visage

[IceFrog]

Looking for some discussion on Visage. No specific format required yet. Interested in hearing about are what aspects you enjoy about him and what aspects you don't. If you have any ability ideas that you think might fit in a partial remake, feel free to discuss it here as well.

[ZΣD]

I hate black revenants :<

[dominator02]

Originally Posted by ZΣD

I hate black revenants :<

I agree,revenants shouldn't be tinted black because it looks ugly to look.

Signature updated.

[Schremba]

I dislike the model of Visage and his Revenants, but I really enjoy playing him. He is really underrated in pubs, thats what I like. But I would like to see a slightly change to Grave Chill: Instead of Decreasing the movement/attackspeed of the enemy and increasing the own, I would like to see a 'Drain' of the movementspeed/attackspeed, meaning Visage gets extra movementspeed/attackspped depending one the slow of the enemy (effective against Magina, less effective agains Rylai). This would add some nice tactics to the skill.

But please don't change him completly.

[d_so]

get rid of his third skill. it makes lose/lose scenarios for the opponents --> either ignore visage and get raped by his damage, or focus fire on him and heal all his teammates. it doesn't help that tanking items are too strong and need a collective nerf.

players will find a way to make him an unstoppable tank as long as he has passives that reward tanking. of course, i'm sure you remember radiance + 3 reaver visage that used to roll around .27b days. this visage is not much different, even though it's healing instead of damage return.

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of course, tihnkign of something to replace it is the hard part. i'm sure a lot of people can think of something better but i'll give it a shot... in a bit.

[mfs_313]

I dont like visage in any form at the moment. He is just too boring, relies on creeps a lot or the whole spell is wasted. i dont get the benefit of healing team mates. When your team mates are on red hp, people will not target you , they will still target your team mates and if you are the first one to be targeted then whats the point of this heal as everyone will be at full hp?

So even if you want this ability to stay, combine it with 2nd ability and give him an active spell.

[Redeemed A.I.]

First of all I would like to say "ZOMG I M SO EXCITED" to have you back on semi-updates
Ok now I want to summon call the balance stick:
-Slow/IAS gaining spell is really ridiculous early game.Same goes for Heal.Exactly the same actually.
-Now don't get me wrong but I really like Assumption and Healing,but summons are...useful only for scouting and they can barely scratch heroes.Also good at farming creeps (because of piercing damage),but is that what someone really wants from an ultimate?Scout and slight increase in farming potential?

So you should:
-balance assumption and slow
-Give some kind of secondary ability to summons or rework the ultimate.I really liked the old ursa like skill summons,but it was buggy,outdated I dunno really..
But I think if there's something that indicates this hero as "visage" it's deffinetly the soul assumption skill and the healing aura.Imho I think the other 2 spells make this hero look ugly,really..

Edit: Yes,change the colour of the revenants,or imput some more eye candy revenant models.

[K2SO4!Archangel]

Leave Visage alone, seriously. He is a unique hero. He can farm all game to rush relic, farm up and destroy enemies, or get Mek to support his team.
Not boring at all - you have to use his revenants well. The only thing that I find bad about him is that his attack animation makes me want to kill a kitten.

There are other heros that need more attention than Visage.

[TT_VbFF]

I like his anti-aoe theme but he needs to get a role instead of being a jack of all trades. Grave Chill and revenants need remakes, and his STR could go up a little

[d_so]

Originally Posted by Archangel--

Leave Visage alone, seriously. He is a unique hero. He can farm all game to rush relic, farm up and destroy enemies, or get Mek to support his team.
Not boring at all - you have to use his revenants well. The only thing that I find bad about him is that his attack animation makes me want to kill a kitten.

There are other heros that need more attention than Visage.

the thing is, he's not unique in that he's still a tank that forces opponents to focus fire on him. this has been going on for over 20 versions now. and if you saw anything about SMM or the ADL that's going on right now, u see that visage is just as unstoppable as ever.

on another note, icefrog: since when was it ok to to have 100 percent damage return available as an item? whereas before, only one or two heroes had damage return (spec, visage, cent to a certain extent, NA to a very poor extent), now everyone can have it? Doesn't this just encourage more tanking? i'm sure you don't want a fatty tank game: it'd be equivalent to allowing handchecking in basketball or pass interference in football -- it hugely buffs the defensive portion of the game, whereas the audience wants offense.

[HTB]

I think he's boring....
keep grave chill, its a good skill

Icefrog, consider revisiting the old pudge through visage? give visage a skill to produce corpses, lvling the skill produces higher level creep corpses and give him raise dead ability

I really liked the old pudge when I played it ages ago, just needs some balancing so its not as imba as it was back then, but the actual idea behind it was cool

[noobsickle]

I really like the old visage back when he could orb walk. Makes it more fun. Obviously it would be really imba now, but maybe you could bring that back, but reduce his late game potential. Maybe reduce the AOE heal and over stats.

[yami-joey]

Please retain his role as an anti-attack speed hero. Yep. That's what all Visage users like about him. Grave Chill is what people love about him--it is just an easy counter to Battle Trance and other AS heroes. Here's an advice for Grave Chill. You could change Grave Chill as a skill completely, but retain his role as an anti-attack speed hero please!

How about try this skill remake for Grave Chill? It may be a bad idea, but again it's just my opinion

Black Deceleration
Visage decelerates enemy units and drains a percentage of their movement and attack rate. If an enemy unit collides with his own ally, the deceleration is also transferred to that enemy unit. If the infection is transferred to more than 4 enemy units, the link explodes and deals 60/80/100/120 damage to nearby enemy units. Bonuses slowly fade with each passing second.
Level 1 - 10% AS, 2.5% MS. AS and MS slowly return to enemy unit within 6 seconds.
Level 2 - 20% AS, 5% MS. AS and MS slowly return to enemy unit within 6 seconds.
Level 3 - 30% AS, 7.5% MS. AS and MS slowly return to enemy unit within 6 seconds.
Level 4 - 40% AS, 10% MS. AS and MS slowly return to enemy unit within 6 seconds.
Animation: A black link connects towards the targeted enemy unit. If that unit collides with other units (within 150 AoE), another link is created.

- AS and MS increase will NOT rise when number of linked units rise.
- Linked units also have reduced AS and MS.
- When the link explodes, the units nearby the enemy units including them will be damaged, and the speed reduction is returned back to them after 1.5 seconds, even if the duration isn't over yet.

So that's just a suggestion okay? Feel free to tweak the numbers or whatever.

[gh0un]

I would change his third skill to something that is a more fun mechanic, while being a little weaker than the current third skill, because (ill just Quote someone above me for this):

get rid of his third skill. it makes lose/lose scenarios for the opponents --> either ignore visage and get raped by his damage, or focus fire on him and heal all his teammates. it doesn't help that tanking items are too strong and need a collective nerf.

How about exchanging "Raise Revenants" with the third skill (and balancing it accordingly) and giving him a new Ultimate:

Revenanimisim
Sacrifices all Revenants, turning Visage into a greater Revenant for x seconds.

Visage gains the Soul assumption effect for every single Revenant that is being sacrificed upon using the ultimate, with the difference that it also heals the whole team for double/triple the normal amount (whatever number is balanced with the new "Raise Revenant" as the third skill). As Long as Visage is a Revenant himself, the heal from "Soul assumption" (units/heroes dying near Visage heal him) applies to allies in an aoe, with double/triple the normal heal value (or even more for heroes dying). You cant raise Revenants as long as Visage is a Revenant himself. After x seconds Visage turns to normal removing the aoe effect of Soul assumption´s heal

This way, the enemies are not confronted with a lose/lose situation.
Instead they can decide to kill Visage to negate further boni from his ultimate.

If the numbers are chosen correctly, this is a little weaker than the current third skill, while being more fun to use.
The synergy is also there, instead of the current second and third skills being counterproductive

If it is too weak, we can consider raising the amount of bonus damage granted per unit dying for the duration of the ultimate (or alternatively increasing the unit cap).

[bountyface]

i'd argue it makes no sense that he gets healed every time somebody dies and gets + damage, but his passive skill heals people and keeps them from dying. thats moving in two opposite directions really. so, i think the focus of a remake should be removal or changing of one of the two heals he has.

edit: ^ thats a pretty cool idea right above me btw, and some good thinking in general.

[OMGjun]

visage's summon revenants is too weak and just suitable for push,they should be add some skill to help visage in killing,like damage increase and period damage skill

[Manta]

Grave Chill --> stay.
Damage + --> stay (?)
Heal --> now this is what I'm wondered. This makes him a tank, while his DPS could be powerful too. Could have some remake, or remake soul assumption.
Revenants --> Seriously? Could scout and help farming, but... that's it.
Some brainstorming on revenants:
- make it couldn't attack but have a little AoE of true sight (for scouting)
- make its damage big but can only attack creeps (for farming)

[L|Enzo]

He's one of the most boring heroes to me..What does he do?? Farm Farm Farm and Farm +_+ In combats, Grave Chill one enemy, then hit hit hit =) along with his summons..
Skills are damn easy to use, too. He's a decent hero but boring +_+
Check this of mine for visual
http://www.playdota.com/forums/12148...sage-overhaul/
For skills: I would like to see more complicated yet interesting ones for him

[kitchen]

Here's what I like about Visage. He's strong. He has scouts.
Here's what I don't like. He's boring. He has no real way of killing anyone without a lot of help (until he gets buff, that is). Soul Assumption is an amazing spell in lane, and requires no skill or decision making to take advantage of. Compare that to a passive like Blootbath or Tidebringer which actually require some timing to reap benefits.

Here are a few fun ideas I came up with:

Un-tint his Revenants. Allow his Revenants to go into stone form, just like the ladder Gargs. They would have collision size, so if done correctly you could trap people. Also the spell shouldn't be his ultimate. You may want to rethink the summoning from corpses, too. Maybe just a regular summoning, with low cooldown.

If that idea doesn't work out, maybe you could just give Visage himself the Gargoyle model. It's a lot better than the current.

For a possible remake of Gravekeeper's Cloak, here's an idea. Make it active. When you learn the spell, you gain the subspell Release. When you use Gravekeeper's Cloak, the subskill Release is automatically used after X seconds, but can be activated beforehand (ala X marks the spot and Return). During the X second period, all damage Visage takes is counted. When Release is used, a percentage of that damage taken is converted to a heal for units around Visage. There would be no visual effect while the spell is underway, but there would be some big green healing flash (or something) when the heal goes off. X could be 2/2.75/3.5/4.25 seconds. % of damage for the heal could be like 50?

[Pyrodrayk]

...Please Icefrog, don't overhaul more than 1 skill, and leave his model untouched. Visage is one of a kind, INT, DPS, Tank, Chaser.

The only things I'd love to see would be: allowing revenants to enter stone form, minor rework to his cloak that keeps the original capabilities, remake to his ultimate that fits the theme, or gives him another source of DPS. Soul Assumption is there to make up for his paper HP, and low base damage.

Another note Lose/Lose situations are not rare, the same applies to Spectre. They both rice for long periods to get tank/carry items (HoT, Rad), and after that, you either focus them and suffer, or ignore them and your team dies to their DPS. And on top of that Visage is paper compared to Spectre, and has no real escape mechanisms other than grave chill and cloak is not gotten early, making ganking him relatively easy.