[Remake] Visage

[yami-joey]

Originally Posted by Fire Lotus

Visage is SEVERELY underplayed and will be a noob-magnet after the 6.65 release considering all the new eye-candy/abilities/heroes being implemented/changed.

Reason to only do minor changes to Visage I don't want a lot of people using him because of the visuals.

[teng)]

Visage to me - boring right click hero, I never pick him anymore since 2nd skill changed into passive.
Super boring, worse than Sk, Sniper, TB, Old Razor, Troll; Why? Because old Razor, Sniper are easy to die, you have to play them carefully. Visage? Cast Grave chill and right click all the way, ignore those attack made to you since you are hardly to die.

Tank - passive skill and it's boring
DPS - boring right click only since you're hard to die and able to farm easily
Scout - Sight range get nerf, boring ultimate. Leave the scouting to NW?

Get picked in league, as a DPS (since he hardly die with scouting ability, not like others DPS heroes who are glass canon)

Give Visage a clear role: DPS or Tanker? not both.
Remake him into a non-right-click hero.

[Aravis]

His third skill is very unique. The anti-aoe of visage could even be enhanced.
His damage skill does not really fit him.
Everything else is just fine as it is.

[Shatterman]

i think visage isnt weak or something. his only problem is being boring to use. therefore i wouldn't change his role but try to execute his concept with more innovative spells.

grave chill could be remade into a stackable arrow orb. this gives him the possibility to orb walk which already would bring in some more fun and needed skill.

soul assumption is a great skill for farming. it is even possible to farm in a ezalor lane with it. i think for this a visual remake would be enough.

gravekeepers cloak is flawed. if your allies are low hp the enemies wont start focussing you and heal them. and if they focus you from start on your allies are full hp and the heal goes to waste. this only works against aoe spells and/or less organized teams.
also it is passive and therefore boring.
i would suggest to use as for the mechanics a spiritual bonds (ladder game) like skill. and instead of healing the skill provides damage. everytime a unit under the effect of the chain is damaged the other units gain damage. the allies can use the damage even if they are not focused. and if they focus your allies/summons your dps increases even further.

the ultimate summons should have some sort of lifesteal. but not they gain the health but the units around them.

[windowlicka]

Visage is a hero without much flavour. Player involvement is minimal, he has 2 active skills, one which doesn't require much thought to use.

Grave Chill is fine as a standalone spell, not considering his other abilities. Having said that, it does have limited synergy with his revenants, and is useful in team battles. It can and should stay.

Soul Assumption is NOT a fun ability, and feels more of a burden at times than a help. Sometimes, while playing Visage, I am forced to stay in a lane. The ability is also greatly hindered and weakened when farming neutral creeps.

Gravekeeper's Cloak is a nice tank ability, but it once again, has not much function among the rest of his abilities. This can be made into a great skill with synergy, and I'll let loose some ideas later.

Revenants are useful, but they just don't feel like they rightfully fit into the game at the moment, but given their niche like spying runes or farming and flying over treetops, I guess it's fine to leave this in (but perhaps not without some changes)


So, some sort of remake is in order. Let's proceed to my ideas

Grave Chill: Change it to a base fix slow on the target, and the slow effect is increased for every allied unit within range (think Dirge's Soul Rip, like).
Example: Slows target by 20%, +4% slow for every allied unit within 1000 range. Visage as well as allied targets which contributed to the slow will gain 20% IAS and movespeed.
IMO something like that would be neat with his revenants for situations when there are no creeps, and still allow some decent harassing early game before Revenants come into play.

Soul Assumption (active): Spirit link but only between the Visage, and non-hero allied units. Linked units receive bonus damage, which increases as more units share the link. If a unit dies while linked, the bonus damage provided by that unit is removed.

Gravekeeper's Cloak (passive): Transfers a percentage of damage to each and every allied (non-hero) and enemy units within range (say, 4% maybe?). Of course, a cap will definitely be needed. Does seem to be a carbon copy of Dispersion =(

Revenants: I'm not sure how this should go, but they definitely need some tweaking. Right now, it's feels like a sort of "cast and forget" kind of ability. Perhaps you should change it so that they are more intertwined with the hero. I'm purposely being vague here, because I don't have a specific change or idea in mind. My ideas for the first 3 abilities above are designed on the assumption that revenants stay more or less the same, concept-wise, in any case.


Overall this should makes him more tanky, and less reliant on lane staying for the DPS department, while still maintaining a decent support role. In addition, perhaps some player choice or skill factors could be added in considering that Soul Assumption is an active ability. What I don't know yet is how to make Revenants interesting, and I'll keep thinking.

In closing, I don't think these are solid ideas, but they just kinda popped in my head, so I thought I'd just put it out there to see what others might think.

[Captain Planet]

I think Visage's biggest con is that few know how to really play him well (me included). I know just how powerful he can be though, I just think he needs to be made a little simpler to play. Not much, but just a tiny little bit, to make him a bit more user friendly.

[FlamingFist]

Visage is a hero without much flavour. Player involvement is minimal, he has 2 active skills, one which doesn't require much thought to use.

I strongly agree with this. Adding some extra effects at Revenants would be nc.

[Lifeburns]

The problem is he has to wait a big time pre-clash to actually be of some use in a fight. He's too creep dependant, what take one skill away from him in any gank.

Still, he's pretty unique and shouldn't be overhauled. There are other heroes who aren't underated, but underpowered, and deserve a remake more than Visage. If anything, buff Soul Assumption or remake it.

Edit: maybe adding Scepter as the 4th level of his ultimate, just like it was done with Panda, will get him some more attention. Visage as a jack-of-all-trades will be one of the few who get the full benefits of it.

[Aca29]

So now every hero who isn't ganker is boring and should be remade?Pff Visage is perfect, maybe buff his ulti little and leave him alone

[JJE92]

Hey Icefrog
Perhaps you could add this link into your op, would remove some clicking work ^^
Necro'lic - DotA Hero Details

I personally really like the model and the theme of Visage, pls dont change this

To the skills:

Grave Chill: The concept of stealing some stats (MS, IAS) for some time is pretty cool imo. The skill shoud stay or atleast the concept of stealing stats. Its too good to be removed.

Soul Assumption: One of the unique and most interesting passives in the game imo, dont touch it pls.

Gravekeeper's Cloak: Make it affect the Revenants of the Ult as well, so that not only damage to Visage causes the effect, but also damage to the Revenants. The rest of the skill should stay the same.

Raise Revenants: The revenants are summoned in a unique mechanism, but they are not really original. They lack of something special, some flavour. They could need some skill, special effect or something different, so that they are more than attacking machines

Overall, imo an overhaul is unneeded, what we need is more interesting tweaks for Revenants. Perhaps his other skills could need some minor changes as well, so that they are more interesting to use, but their concept is already good.

Ill post again if I have a good and synergizing idea for Revenants

[etismyname]

Revenants can add a stone form.
while in that form, it gets bonus armor+magic resistance but unable to move.
All friendly heroes around XXX AoE will have some magic resistance increase while the enemies have decreased magic armor.
Do not stack

[care]

Visage is a hero with strong normal skillset and a subpar ultimate.

Soul Assumption needs at the very least a scaling towards gaining damage earlygame. It's way too easy to reach the 2/4/6 unit cap unless totally screwed.

Gravekeeper's Cloak self heal should be nerfed. As of now, he is an awesome tank.

As for his ultimate, maybe a partial remake is needed, but Grave Chill should synergize with the flying summons. AFAIK flying summons that's permanent and attack are pretty unique, and should stay that way.

[OMGjun]

how about give revenants a skill that can make themself die and attack nearby unit(change into corspe).In this skill,Visage can get 2 advantage-
i) can help visage in killing
ii) can help visage in farming creep

[Schremba]

Originally Posted by etismyname

Revenants can add a stone form.
while in that form, it gets bonus armor+magic resistance but unable to move.
All friendly heroes around XXX AoE will have some magic resistance increase while the enemies have decreased magic armor.
Do not stack

Visage doesn't need a -magic resistance aura, he has no spell damage. Support is nice, but to make it completly useless in one point is senseless imo.

[Torchic Maniac]

As long as Soul Assumption and Grave Chill becomes untouched, I will be fine with a remake of some sort. A ranged INT tank is an unique that he plays. The trouble is that he lacks a lot of flavor. I mean, he is not bad, but he feels too passive to be an INT and his summons don't seem to be that ultimate worthy.

Some effect to those skills will make him better, but leave Soul Assumption and Grave Chill alone.

[peter4565hk]

Well, I guess the main problem on visage is that this hero can just stay on a line and push and it is hard to be ganked. However, the unique ult make this hero has a special place on this dota world.

I guess one of the solution can be reduce the base damage or HP on Visage and improve the revenants. This can require more skills to control this hero. Not only farming like hell and become unbeatable after 30mins....

moreover, I guess the change in heart reali reduce the ability of tank for visage already, so i guess there shouldn't be a huge change on visage. Unless there is a way to keep his uniqueness and improve the game balance @@

PT

[Vergil.DT]

Originally Posted by d_so

the thing is, he's not unique in that he's still a tank that forces opponents to focus fire on him. this has been going on for over 20 versions now. and if you saw anything about SMM or the ADL that's going on right now, u see that visage is just as unstoppable as ever.

on another note, icefrog: since when was it ok to to have 100 percent damage return available as an item? whereas before, only one or two heroes had damage return (spec, visage, cent to a certain extent, NA to a very poor extent), now everyone can have it? Doesn't this just encourage more tanking? i'm sure you don't want a fatty tank game: it'd be equivalent to allowing handchecking in basketball or pass interference in football -- it hugely buffs the defensive portion of the game, whereas the audience wants offense.

so you made the judgement from SMM？
that's not all the truth.
u see that visage is just as unstoppable as ever only because the players.
and the truth is not every player can make it.
-----------------------------------------
so, leave him alone, just a funny&unique hero
yes,unique.

[5chneemensch]

Change his ultimate to the Dark Ranger Orb from ladder

Everything else is fine as it is, he is a unique hero that doesnt need an overhaul

[carpet muncher]

Here is my suggestion for a more interesting visage.
Remaking his ulti into this.
New Raise Revenant:

Visage summons a revenant to trail a target allied hero or itself. When the target is about to die. The revenent will sacrifice itself to restore that hero's hp equal to the current hp of the revenant.
-Revenants are uncontrollable
-Reventants only attacks the target that the hero is attacking. Revenant releases one attack each time it assigned hero attack once. (i.e if sniper shoots juggernault 3 times, revenant will attack juggernault 3 times)
-Revenant does 0 damage. However it has an orb effect that slows target movement speed by 15% for 3 second and heals the assigned hero for 25/35/50 hp each time it attacks.
-Each hero can only be assigned 1 revenant.
-Revenant has 522 movement speed and is able to teleport to keep up with its assigned hero no matter what.

For the scaling...

Cooldown: 50/40/30
revenant hp: 700/600/500
Magic resistance of revenant: 25%/40%/80% (follow the old one)

I don't mind the orb effect changing to -armor or something.

[xy4kuz4x]

He's unique. A hero that able to takes more than one role.

Just increase his pityful armor