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Old 05-31-2013, 01:23 AM   #1
MauranKilom
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Default New 6.78 mechanics!


Update: Check the list of problems at the end of this post!

Ok, since there's lots and lots of changes that are pretty interesting from a mechanics standpoint, i'll try to collect them in this thread. If somebody comes along and helps me out a bit, we could probably create trigger descriptions for the new heroes, too!

1. Hero mechanics changes

Changes like the one on ES ulti were omitted, there's really nothing exciting there (and ofcourse mechanically irrelevant stuff isn't in here, too).




2. Item mechanics changes


Now uses a different buff ([B0GP] instead of the standard [BHad] Devotion aura buff).


3. Important bugs

Here's a list of things that work different from what the changelog describes:
  • Courier burst gave a 10000% ms buff, now gives 5000%. Intended would be 50%.
  • Slardar's bash coding fails for units with additional magic resistance. Speculated reason is that armor type damage reduction doesn't apply below 1 damage (hence allowing the comparison to work), normal MR however does. What needs to be done is simply checking for the bash buff on damage, removing said buff and applying the desired effects (akin to impetus or arcane orb).
  • Bloodrage removes Ice Blast, Napalm and Ethereal only when cast on enemy. This can't be intended.
    Edit: It also removes Dragon Form (replay would be nice).
  • Purifying Flames kills allied non-hero units (it amplifies the damage to account for standard MR, no matter whether it's a hero or not). It's not targetable on non-hero units, my bad. But still, the non-lethal damage on allied heroes will bring them nowhere near the intended 7.5 HP if they have additional magic resistance or may cause suicides if MR was decreased in some way. This should really be cleaned up, using pure damage and checking for Fate's Edict might preserve the synergyas in, not dealing the damage when the target is under Fate's Edict. Or using antimagic shell (with near infinite life) for Fate's Edict.
  • Stone Gaze amplification is not physical damage. Not as important as the previous stuff, but it still contradicts the changelog.

Things that might be an oversight/unintended:
  • Both AA and Omniknight Scepters are undroppable for some reason. Most probably an oversight because there is no reason those two upgrades cannot be removed like Tiny/Enchantress. Thanks crinckle.
  • Allied wards are targetable by QB.
  • Reaper's scythe is not properly MUI. It's unlikelywhich is why i didn't put it in the above list to happen, but Rubick + Necro can produce situations where it matters.
  • Bloodstone suicide costs an additional charge. Not sure if this is intended...

Also, there's a boatload of wrong/inconsistent tooltips. But that's not really mechanics-related.

PS: Check Func4117. Only one of the local unit variables is nulled. Just happened to notice.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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regarding necrolyte - there are tons of non-MUI examples, but since such situations are pretty rare, no feels like "go fix it" happen
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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Wait, why does Bloodrage remove Sticky Napalm and Ice Blast from enemies and not from allies? Did IF really call that function just for [Aetl] removal?


The Doom check for the buff being present is just sensible robust coding. There was already at least one bug that can remove Doom (with Aphotic Shield), and now Bloodseeker can apparently remove Doom too. There are probably others or may be others in the future. So for the sake of good MUI and efficiency and such, the trigger is destroyed if the Doom buff is gone.


The Orb Effects page says OoV didn't used to work on the red dragon. I have no idea why Corrosive Breath would now. But I guess it does.


For Huskar to get 96% spell resistance, he needs to have less than 3% of his max hp . . .


Stone Gaze amplification . . . just wow. So now AT: Hero, DT: Universal is finally used, except if the unit is ethereal, in which case it isn't? The whole point of DT: Universal is that it penetrates both ethereal and magic immunity. The only reason I can think of for not always using Universal in this function is that IceFrog wants to specifically prevent damage from Doom, March of the Machines, or Midnight Pulse being amplified vs. units that are both ethereal and magic immune. In literally any other situation, it changes nothing.


For Starfall, you sure c2c range is checked? I'm pretty sure IsUnitInRange() takes collision size into account.


I've already asked about Slardar's bash. It seems to work despite spell resistance (surprisingly enough, 0.0075==0.01 according to JASS), but I'm pretty sure it won't work on magic immune or piped targets. Frankly, this is not the correct way to trigger a Bash, and I don't know why it's done like that.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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Tested, bash won't do damage to magic immune units. Don't know how to test pipe with the standard map.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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If it does go through Pipe (because 0.01==0), then I can't think of any actual bugs with it, assuming the magic immunity block is intended. This still seems like very strange coding. Magic immune targets could always have been excluded anyway by conventional triggered means (i.e. Func0095).

Also, AT: Hero, DT: Universal isn't IF damage type #7, but actually #15. The other 14 are:
  1. AT: Hero, DT: Normal (Hero damage)
  2. AT: Piercing, DT: Normal (Piercing damage)
  3. AT: Siege, DT: Normal (Siege damage)
  4. AT: Normal, DT: Normal (Normal damage)
  5. AT: Chaos, DT: Normal (Chaos damage)
  6. AT: Spells, DT: Normal (Mixed damage)
  7. AT: Magic, DT: Normal (Pugna second attack)
  8. AT: Hero, DT: Enhanced (Enhanced damage)
  9. AT: Normal, DT: Enhanced (Spirit Bear with Empower)
  10. AT: Chaos, DT: Enhanced (Infernal with Empower)
  11. AT: Spells, DT: Enhanced (Echo Slam, Homing Missiles, etc.)
  12. AT: Hero, DT: Magic (Pure damage)
  13. AT: Spells, DT: Magic (Magic damage)
  14. AT: Spells, DT: Universal (Doom, March, Pulse)

Unless you group 1-5 together as "physical damage," ignore 7, and group 8-11 together as "enhanced damage," I guess.

And don't forget Direct HP Removal, or that some spells deal more than one type of damage, such as Earth Splitter which deals both magical and (hero) physical, and Heartstopper Aura which normally is DHP, but which has a killing blow that deals magical, physical, and pure damage.

And you could split hairs even more by pointing out that most spells with DT: Enhanced technically are not Enhanced but rather some other damage type nearly identical to Enhanced but which doesn't automatically cancel consumables.
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Last edited by EebstertheGreat; 05-31-2013 at 03:20 AM.
Old 05-31-2013, 03:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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Well, I reported it as a bug so we'll have to wait and see if it actually is one or not.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:19 AM   #7
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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Slardar's triggering seems funky. Is that using a rounding effect with Magic Resistance, taking 0.75 * 0.01 = 0.01 for whatever reason, or what? Wouldn't make any sense if it was using floats, but if its got a ceil() cap in the wc3 engine for whatever reason...
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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As ThoAppelsin pointed out in another thread, 0.0075==0.01. If the epsilon is exactly 0.01, then it might even be the case that 0==0.01, in which case even Pipe might not stop the Bash. Which would be nice I guess.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:52 AM   #9
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I don't understand 80% of what I'm reading here, but great work. It's very soothing to read such knowledgeable analysis.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:04 AM   #10
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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SO what buffs does bloodrage remove? Guessing it's not like a purge nya... But It shouldn't just be the Ethereal/Napalm/Ice Blast mentioned there...

There's probably a better way to code that Slardar bash too nya x.x

Also about Corrosive Breath... The Damage applies to primary target only? It's being splashed nya...
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:24 AM   #11
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In my testing, only the primary target receives the Corrosive Breath DoT.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:38 AM   #12
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since when splash could provide any buff placer? |(
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:53 AM   #13
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Rupture cannot kill you in ethereal form. T/F?
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:07 AM   #14
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False, unless you are also magic immune.

This confusing exception brought to you by IceFrog.
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:11 AM   #15
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Does the new list of passives that Doom disables get added to Duel as well?
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:30 AM   #16
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So wait, rupture > shallow grave now too?
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomPasserby View Post
Does the new list of passives that Doom disables get added to Duel as well?
No, the triggers check for the [BNdo] "Doom" buff, while Duel uses the [B0FG] "Duel" buff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
So wait, rupture > shallow grave now too?
Yes, much like Ice Blast and Culling Blade.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauranKilom View Post
Meepo now gets a spellbook with a 24% spell resistance ability. This effectively gives him 35.5% MR (0.86 * 0.75 = 0.645).
Erm...
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:47 AM   #19
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What about Viper's Corrosive skin? Does it work on HP Removal? So does Necrolyte get slowed and damaged?
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:53 AM   #20
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HP removal isn't a damage type and doesn't trigger anything like that (including pseudo evasions as well). I wonder why he didn't just make it the same as untouchable? (Or is it, but just worded differently?)
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulgorestyle View Post
What about Viper's Corrosive skin? Does it work on HP Removal? So does Necrolyte get slowed and damaged?
Corrosive skin's description is misleading. It applies when you begin an autoattack. It has nothing to do with damage.
Derp
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Last edited by xpforever; 05-31-2013 at 07:21 AM.
Old 05-31-2013, 06:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoTengoUnLCD View Post
Erm...
I'm sure he meant 14%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyn-Ryder View Post
HP removal isn't a damage type and doesn't trigger anything like that (including pseudo evasions as well). I wonder why he didn't just make it the same as untouchable? (Or is it, but just worded differently?)
The tooltips are worded correctly; Untouchable triggers on attacks and targeted spells while Corrosive Skin triggers on damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpforever View Post
Corrosive skin's description is misleading. It applies when you begin an autoattack. It has nothing to do with damage.
Check the changelog.
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:08 AM   #23
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So it doesn't trigger on HP Removal?
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:12 AM   #24
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Oh, can it still trigger on a cancelled/missed autoattack or is it only damage now?
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:13 AM   #25
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What does seeker dispel on enemies / friends?
Can he dispel runes?
It deals damage to ilus?
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:13 AM   #26
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Quote:
Meepo now gets a spellbook with a 24% spell resistance ability. This effectively gives him 35.5% MR (0.86 * 0.75 = 0.645).
Wait... so how is innate spell resistance coded? Is it hardcoded already on heroes to have 25% SR?
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutsy View Post
Wait... so how is innate spell resistance coded? Is it hardcoded already on heroes to have 25% SR?
Armor Type: Hero
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:07 AM   #28
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Buy-back lock (Necro AS)
Duration lock (Doom AS)
Credit (Necro)
Attacking what won't break invisible (Oracle)
Duration enlarger (Kaolin)
Pocket suicide (Bladstoun)
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EebstertheGreat View Post
No, the triggers check for the [BNdo] "Doom" buff, while Duel uses the [B0FG] "Duel" buff.



Yes, much like Ice Blast and Culling Blade.
Except for:

6.66 - Ice Blast no longer pierces Shallow Grave


Anyways:
Let me get this straight (seeing the rubick example).
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:51 AM   #30
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No. Whenever a unit dies 1.5 seconds after reaper's scythe was cast on it, the unit that last cast reaper's scythe gets kill and sadist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EebsterTheGreat
The Doom check for the buff being present is just sensible robust coding.
Well yes, but the check for the unit being dead makes no sense (and especially not removing doom but only letting the counter progress in that case). It can't have the doom buff if it's dead anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EebsterTheGreat
For Starfall, you sure c2c range is checked?
He calls his own function with the two units as arguments. I assumed it would use UnitX/Y to get the distance. And indeed, after checking now, i can confirm that Func0139 uses unit centers. And it gets called exactly in the function you see in my sig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EebsterTheGreat
Also, AT: Hero, DT: Universal isn't IF damage type #7
You didn't understand me correctly. See Func0109:
Jass:
function Func0109 takes unit loc_unit01,unit loc_unit02,integer loc_integer01,real loc_real01 returns nothing
  if loc_integer01==0 then
    return
  endif
  if loc_integer01==1 then
    call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_NORMAL,DAMAGE_TYPE_FIRE,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  elseif loc_integer01==2 then
    call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_HERO,DAMAGE_TYPE_NORMAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  elseif loc_integer01==3 then
    call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_HERO,DAMAGE_TYPE_MAGIC,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  elseif loc_integer01==4 then
    call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_PIERCE,DAMAGE_TYPE_NORMAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  elseif loc_integer01==5 then
    call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_NORMAL,DAMAGE_TYPE_NORMAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
  elseif loc_integer01==6 then
    call SetUnitState(loc_unit02,UNIT_STATE_LIFE,RMaxBJ(GetUnitState(loc_unit02,UNIT_STATE_LIFE)-loc_real01,1))
    if GetUnitState(loc_unit02,UNIT_STATE_LIFE)<2 then
      call UnitRemoveBuffs(loc_unit02,true,true)
      call UnitRemoveAbility(loc_unit02,'Aetl')
      call UnitDamageTarget(CreateUnit(GetOwningPlayer(loc_unit01),'e00E',0,0,0),loc_unit02,100000000.00,true,false,ATTACK_TYPE_MELEE,DAMAGE_TYPE_NORMAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
    endif
  elseif loc_integer01==7 then
    if GetUnitAbilityLevel(loc_unit02,'Aetl')>0 or GetUnitAbilityLevel(loc_unit02,'B01N')>0 then
      call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_HERO,DAMAGE_TYPE_MAGIC,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
    else
      call UnitDamageTarget(loc_unit01,loc_unit02,loc_real01,true,true,ATTACK_TYPE_HERO,DAMAGE_TYPE_UNIVERSAL,WEAPON_TYPE_WHOKNOWS)
    endif
  endif
endfunction


Quote:
Originally Posted by EebsterTheGreat
False, unless you are also magic immune.
Uh, rupture killing blow is physical damage if i see this correctly... And it removes buffs and ethereability (lol) before dealing that damage. Recheck the code i posted...

That should cover most of the misunderstandings so far.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulgorestyle View Post
So it doesn't trigger on HP Removal?
No. Nothing can trigger on HP removal. Please don't ask a third time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpforever View Post
Oh, can it still trigger on a cancelled/missed autoattack or is it only damage now?
Just damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvjacobo View Post
What does seeker dispel on enemies / friends?
Can he dispel runes?
It deals damage to ilus?
He dispells negative buffs on allies and positive buffs plus Sticky Napalm, Ice Blast, and Ethereal on enemies. It doesn't use Purge, so it doesn't damage illusions (beyond the damage it already does to all targets).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
Except for:

6.66 - Ice Blast no longer pierces Shallow Grave
Oh yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauranKilom View Post
Well yes, but the check for the unit being dead makes no sense (and especially not removing doom but only letting the counter progress in that case). It can't have the doom buff if it's dead anyways.
The trigger has to be destroyed eventually to avoid leaks. But it really could just be destroyed right away, I guess.

Quote:
He calls his own function with the two units as arguments. I assumed it would use UnitX/Y to get the distance. And indeed, after checking now, i can confirm that Func0139 uses unit centers. And it gets called exactly in the function you see in my sig.
Ah, yes, Func0139 is just the distance function.

Quote:
You didn't understand me correctly. See Func0109
Bizarre. Is he expecting to need to use that again?

Quote:
Uh, rupture killing blow is physical damage if i see this correctly... And it removes buffs and ethereability (lol) before dealing that damage. Recheck the code i posted..
Rupture and Stone Gaze are getting all jumbled in my head.
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:07 PM   #32
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So anybody looking forward to helping me with trigger descriptions?
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:46 PM   #33
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Default Re: New 6.78 mechanics!
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I would, but after seeing how many times Kaolin's abilities being referred everywhere in the script...

I don't know, I still can, but my descriptions can also turn out to be something far from understandable, either because of my strange wording or incorrect grammar. Either way, I think this kind of thing should be done in a wider area, literally; I mean just look at the maximum post width here, it looks very good for reading long text, but is simply too narrow for trigger descriptions. Unlike the ones there, where the width isn't reduced by poster information: http://www.playdota.com/forums/group...cussionid=2005
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:51 PM   #34
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And that's exactly the place i'd make the descriptions in and for.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:37 PM   #35
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Instant revive with Bloodstone or buyback "will remove doom" and the unit won't be seen as dead.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:45 PM   #36
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Then it still doesn't need the check in the counter. Again, it only needs the range check in the counter and the buff check in the "end" part. No need for dead/alive checks.
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:34 PM   #37
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I'd like to know whether Quelling Blade can target all sorts of wards or not. Possible to dig that up?

Including Land mines too.
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:47 PM   #38
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Quelling Blade is now targetable on wards, but deals damage to a ward only if its an Observer or a Sentry ward, so you waste the cooldown if you cast it on some other ward

Be cautious, you can cast it on an allied ward aswell!
Because it doesn't specify enemy as targets
Probably is there because you may not know when you want to deny a ward...

Seriously though, what is the point of that thing? Allowing melee units to kill wards on the hills? It doesn't even kill them in one hit... I say even being able to deny your allied wards can have more play in the game, I definitely would do it
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:03 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoAppelsin View Post
Quelling Blade is now targetable on wards, but deals damage to a ward only if its an Observer or a Sentry ward, so you waste the cooldown if you cast it on some other ward

Be cautious, you can cast it on an allied ward aswell!
Because it doesn't specify enemy as targets
Probably is there because you may not know when you want to deny a ward...

Seriously though, what is the point of that thing? Allowing melee units to kill wards on the hills? It doesn't even kill them in one hit... I say even being able to deny your allied wards can have more play in the game, I definitely would do it
yeah, its last resort for melee supports.
did u ever saw melee supports in game atm? i didnt
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Old 05-31-2013, 08:04 PM   #40
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I assume the fact that you can target allied wards is an oversight, as there is almost no situation in which that would be desirable.

And yes, it takes two hits to kill wards, but that's only five seconds of time; comparable to the time it takes a ranged unit to kill wards uphill (roughly three hits and one miss).

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did u ever saw melee supports in game atm? i didnt
Dark Seer, Ogre Magi, Nerubian Assassin, Earthshaker, Rooftrellen, Clockwerk Goblin, Tauren Chieftan, Goblin Shredder, Undying, Sand King, Tidehunter, . . .
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