[COLLAB][STR-NEUTRAL]Valdis, Ancient Wendigo

[talkingmuffin]

I don't get why everyone thinks Glacial Hide is overpowered. It lasts for 4 seconds and doesn't refresh itself on attacks. Even a Troll with his ultimate on and great items will only attack at max 3 (?) times per second. That is (at level 4) only 36 damage for FOUR seconds. This is a strength hero, so his attack speed isn't going to be incredibly high, making that late-game maybe 8 attacks (two per second).

The numbers aren't overpowered at all. Just try putting it into an actual battle to see how overpowered it is. And if a team focuses him and attacks over 20 times (240 damage) within 4 seconds, they should die just because they can't take down a single target with that many attacks.

[leMONQUakE]

maybe nerf Glacial Hide a bit and give it an attack and damage cap.
well something like 2/3/4/5 attacks and a cap of 50/100/150/200 damage that lasts for maybe 10 seconds.

[talkingmuffin]

Originally Posted by lemonquake

maybe nerf Glacial Hide a bit and give it an attack and damage cap.
well something like 2/3/4/5 attacks and a cap of 50/100/150/200 damage that lasts for maybe 10 seconds.

QFT. Learn to read. The duration is 4. It isn't overpowered.

[chadpiety123]

I like the Ultimate very much! I've always wanted to make a Last Stand-ish ability, and this one's real great.

Glazed Ground is very good IMO and synergizes real great with Ultimate. I'd like to make this one with the other abilities as well though as to not make it a random spell that's just there. The numbers are way off by the way, I think you check on that one (the damage is strong, speed doesn't consider AoE size, and etc).

Glacial Hide IMO is real great HOWEVER, you don't have a spell that makes you be attacked, so really? It's such a pity, IMO. Better fix this as the concept's really good. It gives me some kind of hype. Maybe you could put this forced-to-attack-me thing in your third ability. I'll explain later. The duration, by the way, feels awkward. I suggest you increase it to 10-15 seconds or even more (Remember Essense Shift? Or Old Soul Assumption? You don't have to be that absurd, but come on). And I agree, it isn't overpowered. Heck, it could even use a duration buff (as I've mentioned).

Killer Instincts is already great even if it's obviously not yet complete. I have a suggestion if it's alright?

With an insatiable hunger, the Wendigo instantly jumps to the enemy with the lowest HP around him and causes Sheer Panic to a 180 AoE where he lands. Sheer Panic causes -4 armor debuff and forces enemies to attack him.

Level 1 - 400 search AoE, lasts 1 second
Level 2 - 550 search AoE, lasts 1.25 seconds
Level 3 - 700 search AoE, lasts 1.5 seconds
Level 4 - 850 search AoE, lasts 2 seconds

Type: Instant active
Duration is X
Casting Range is -
Aoe is 600
Casting Time is -

Cooldown: 20
Mana Cost: 140

As I've said Ultimate is just great. I don't really have much suggestions but rather criticisms for balance purposes.

• I personally think increasing aspd and ms per attack is overkill, and a static 30/60/90 IAS and 5/10/15% MS will do.
• Do the kills count even before the skill activates? I hope so. I mean its passive, it should probably collect all your kills before it activates right? But I think there should be a duration to each kill, probably 30s for creeps, but hero kills could probably be permanent until activated.
• There's a very probable abuse with Radiance, Battlefury and Mjollnir. I suggest you decrease the creep duration from 1s to 0.5s. The hero duration seems a little too long as well. Probably decrease that from 5s to 3s.
• Also there's something to consider (not exactly add but consider): If this ability becomes overpowered, then you could probably reduce the numbers a bit AND make it save him from death at the end with 1HP left. XD That'd probably balance it out.
• Also, if you think about it, with your current skill set (that's why I suggested the third), if you already died and Ultimate already activated, no one's bound to attack you since, hey you're already dead. They'd just probably run from you or something. XD

This hero gives me the hype, good job. Hope my reviews and suggestions helped.

[kings.empire]

^I actually like that idea, however it resembles a blink n berserker's call in one move though, something Axe would dearly love lol.

[chadpiety123]

^Poor axe then. Kidding. That's actually my inhibition in suggesting the ability. Though the lack of humongous +armor on Valdis' side should make up for it; the duration's also quite shorter.

[kings.empire]

Still, I doubt anyone would like a skill that is really similar concept wise...I mean sure Pounce and Leap work the same, but for different purposes.

Blink + Battle Cry and what your suggesting seem to be essentially very similar.

But we'll think about it (or I will anyways lol),

[chadpiety123]

Yep, I see that as a problem as well. Any other ideas on how you could force the enemies to attack you then?

[evilcamba]

about the 3rd skill..

hmn..

what about making the target bleed? that would cause dmg the more/farther the target move?

the other skills are pretty neat and balanced imo..

[JJE92]

Originally Posted by Maw2

Skill 1: Not a bad skill. However duration is too long and the DPS is too much. -2 second duration and 75% DPS.

Okay, Ill wait for other opinions, up to now, nobody said that the duration would be too long.

Originally Posted by Maw2

Skill 2: Me no like. I don't see this skill being useful at all besides the +4 armor bonus. It'll do good on creep waves. Big deal. Bad concept. Don't like it. How many times do you think this hero will have to be attacked for this to make a difference?
Plus, you just killed this guys play style with this skill. #1 Item -> Vanguard. Next, Hood. Do we really need more Vangaurd/Hood itembuilds in dota? All this thing will do is wait to rack up damage until it can kill something. Boring.

More? I only buy Vanguard for one or two heroes, lol. And this would be Axe.
Okay, perhaps some similarities to Axe's skill, Ill think about this.

Originally Posted by Maw2

And the about the explanation... Icicles coming off his ass and uses them to hit people with... Fail >_<

Lol, not my description idea, just didnt change this. Doesnt really matter anyways ^^

Originally Posted by Maw2

Skill 3: When does a Wendigo ever "latch on" ?? He body slams the fucker. Make it a pseudo disable? Use this lasting 1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds that the enemy can't move. However the Wendigo can't move either but he can still cast spells (i.e Skill 1)

Where did you find the "latch on", I didnt write anything like this?
Hmm, Idk, I dislike Wendigo not being able to move (ruins some synergy with first skill). Well, Ill wait.

Originally Posted by Maw2

Skill 4: No. No. No. NO. None of this "life after death" stuff please. It's very annoying. The concept is flawed and extremely hard to balance. Do you make him immune to just attacks and not spells? What happens if he get impaled? Then the Ult is half wasted. What happens if he manages to kill someone? Now he goes on a bloody rampage. You can do better than this.

About your question: Its on discussion whether hes just immune to damage or as well to effects. Id make him immune to effects as well, because otherwise his Ult would be underpowered.

Thx for your reply


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Originally Posted by NinoDoko

2nd skill - Looks pretty much like huskar's passive too much. And i agree with the previous poster, you can do better. Maybe make it "Freeze the opponent's weapon, reducing his damage (opponent's damage)" or something along those lines.

Ehh, what? Huskar's passive is completely different. His passive increases IAS whenever he attacks enemies, this skill grants pure bonus damage whenever an enemy attacks him. Thats a huge difference in game play and so on.
Id accept criticism if you say its similar to Axe's passive, but this is too different imo ^^
Well, reducing damage isnt really synergetic.

Originally Posted by NinoDoko

3rd skill - It's a big fat creature, so jumping is probably not a good idea. Making it charge instead would be better, and when it hits the opponent, he pushes/throws/does something painful to him with a stun as an effect.

Ill change description to charge ^^


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Originally Posted by lemonquake

@Glazed Ground..
wew! I must say this is the best skill that I've ever heard(in initiating). but, like king_james said, this should be capped to at least once for enemy units that gets in it.

I capped the damage, the sliding is still unlimited

Originally Posted by lemonquake

@Glacial Hide..
wow..it sounds a little imba for me IMO..if you get attacked 20 times by a wave of creeps and some heroes in let's say 2 seconds you get 20x12 = 240 PURE damage ryt? in my opinion the bonus damage should only last in 1 attack. just a suggestion tho :P

Being attacked 20 times in 2 seconds by normal attacks? This requires all heroes and 1-2 creepwaves. If someone isseriously are dumb enough to tank all of them, then he should please die lol ^^
Nah, honestly. One single disable and youre screwed. If you want high damage, you have to receive high damage. I dont see the imbaness.
Btw, the cap to 1 or more attacks sounds fine, I added it. But the possibility to make more than 3 attacks in 4 seconds is already rather low.

Originally Posted by lemonquake

@Killer Instincts..
hmmm..this should only DETECT invisible units and not REVEAL them..sounds a bit imba to me to have like a dust of appearance when chasing heroes with invis.

Removed invis completely.

Originally Posted by lemonquake

@Enraged Spirit of the Yeti..
let's say you got pwnd by Nevermore and then after 5 seconds(level 4, maximum is 6), you killed a creep(+1 second), then after the duration, will Nevermore still get the kill? or is it the last unit that will attack him throughout the duration?

The one who killed him will get the kill already at the time Valdis dies, meaning as soon as the Ult activates.

Thx for review


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Originally Posted by ghuy_9391

This hero is just, what can i say? AWESOME! Skills are very unique and balanced. (well this is the result of teamwork) I'll give my full support for this hero!
P.S: One thing keep bothering me though, 155dps while on ice? Is it too much? If you have team mate like Naga or Geo or even Rylai, the damage total is large and may prove some imba, may be tweak the number a little bit?

Changed numbers already. Btw, since youre hardly longer than 1 second on the ice, this isnt much. ^^

Thx for support


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Originally Posted by Serafell

It would be way better if ultimate may save you from death. The current one is bit underpowered, and wicked. Skill 2 should have a cap of bonus damage, or he`ll be a new (and better) ursa
For skill 3 i propose to make a stun with time based on precentage of life of target.
I`ll be watching this project

I dont get why you want a cap.

Mathcrafting:
Fight against heroes:
If all attack him once, he would receive 300-500 damage at level 7 (with level for of this skill). This would be reduced a bit perhaps with armor or items, so lets say 200-400 damage. Then, he still has not more than 60 bonus damage for 4 seconds or 3 attacks.
For a bonus damage of 180 (which would be really strong), he would have to receive about 600-1200 damage.
And thats only the case if enemies dont cast spells and only auto attack him...

Where do you see imbalancedness

Skill 3: Ill think about it, I have some ideas now.

Ult: I thought about this, but I dont really want it due to some issues:
1) Similarity to Reincarnation
2) Even more imbalanceness, he can do rampage and revive. His ult would be either completely imba, or completely useless
3) Would even more make some idiots just mindlessly die (I iz have reincarnation with rampage style, olololol)




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Originally Posted by ForbiddenIntent

Nice! They used my name! lol
Way to go JJ! And i agree that the Killer Instincts sould maim as suggested.
The Glacial Hide seems a bit imba to me against agil heroes and such. It should be nerfed a little then fused with my old suggestion, Frozen Conception.
And i don't think that he should have so much initial ms. Although that isn't a big deal anyway.
But great workout!

Congratz for name, I chose this one, because it had no connection with frost or ice.

2nd skill: About imbaness look above ^^
What was your Frozen Conception again?

MS: I chose the same as another initiator (Earthshaker), Im not sure, perhaps Ill reduce it, because he has two fast move skills ^^


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Originally Posted by talkingmuffin

I don't get why everyone thinks Glacial Hide is overpowered. It lasts for 4 seconds and doesn't refresh itself on attacks. Even a Troll with his ultimate on and great items will only attack at max 3 (?) times per second. That is (at level 4) only 36 damage for FOUR seconds. This is a strength hero, so his attack speed isn't going to be incredibly high, making that late-game maybe 8 attacks (two per second).

Two per seconds is already difficult for AGI heroes, his attack speed will most probably not allow more than 5 attacks in 4 seconds.

Originally Posted by talkingmuffin

The numbers aren't overpowered at all. Just try putting it into an actual battle to see how overpowered it is. And if a team focuses him and attacks over 20 times (240 damage) within 4 seconds, they should die just because they can't take down a single target with that many attacks.

If Valdis doesnt die first. And if they are too dumb to disable him. And if they are dumb enough only to attack him with normal attacks and not at all with skills.
Thx for support ^^


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Originally Posted by lemonquake

maybe nerf Glacial Hide a bit and give it an attack and damage cap.
well something like 2/3/4/5 attacks and a cap of 50/100/150/200 damage that lasts for maybe 10 seconds.

Added second duration condition. Damage cap isnt really necessary, it would make the skill useless.


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Originally Posted by chadpiety123

Glazed Ground is very good IMO and synergizes real great with Ultimate. I'd like to make this one with the other abilities as well though as to not make it a random spell that's just there. The numbers are way off by the way, I think you check on that one (the damage is strong, speed doesn't consider AoE size, and etc).

I dont really get what you meant with synergies and random spell?
I changed damage, about AoE size, Im still not sure.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

Glacial Hide IMO is real great HOWEVER, you don't have a spell that makes you be attacked, so really? It's such a pity, IMO. Better fix this as the concept's really good. It gives me some kind of hype. Maybe you could put this forced-to-attack-me thing in your third ability. I'll explain later. The duration, by the way, feels awkward. I suggest you increase it to 10-15 seconds or even more (Remember Essense Shift? Or Old Soul Assumption? You don't have to be that absurd, but come on). And I agree, it isn't overpowered. Heck, it could even use a duration buff (as I've mentioned).

I dont really like to use force to make enemies attack him, this would make the skill and the concept even mroe similar to Axe.
Ive buffed the duration now, but limited the number of attacks, hope its better now ^^
It seems to me as if 10-15 seconds is way too much. You could easily let you be attacked a lot and (because of the high duration) let an ally heal you, then attack with an enormous bonus damage for some times.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

• I personally think increasing aspd and ms per attack is overkill, and a static 30/60/90 IAS and 5/10/15% MS will do.

Im not sure if its better, would probably have to be tested.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

• Do the kills count even before the skill activates? I hope so. I mean its passive, it should probably collect all your kills before it activates right? But I think there should be a duration to each kill, probably 30s for creeps, but hero kills could probably be permanent until activated.

Atm, its only kills during the Ult is active, but Ill add this to the discussion. Its an interesting idea, 30 seconds would be too much, but 5-10 seconds before Ult activates would be fine.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

• There's a very probable abuse with Radiance, Battlefury and Mjollnir. I suggest you decrease the creep duration from 1s to 0.5s. The hero duration seems a little too long as well. Probably decrease that from 5s to 3s.

About Mjollnir: You cant use items during Ult. Ill think how to solve the issue with Radiance and Battlefury. If you have them, killing will be too easy, but if you dont have them 0.5 seconds would be nothing. Perhaps Ill consider disabling these two item's passives during the Ult.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

• Also there's something to consider (not exactly add but consider): If this ability becomes overpowered, then you could probably reduce the numbers a bit AND make it save him from death at the end with 1HP left. XD That'd probably balance it out.

I thought about this already as well. Duration of the skill would have to be reduced for this. Problem is, as already said, that this could make a rampage even more imba and a failed Ult (you get no kills) even weaker.
Furthermore, think of Dazzle. He can save you with the one HP after the Ult is over.
Im totally unsure about this.

Originally Posted by chadpiety123

• Also, if you think about it, with your current skill set (that's why I suggested the third), if you already died and Ultimate already activated, no one's bound to attack you since, hey you're already dead. They'd just probably run from you or something. XD

Well, that is if they can run from you (first skill, third skill ^^)
Theres no problem with them not attacking you (issue with second skill already solved, look at Ult's description).
Anyway, youll have allies helping you from preventing enemies to run as well.

Thx for review

P.S.: About forcing to attack again: Youre the initiator, enemies will normally attack you for atleast once, thats already enough for skill 2. If they ignore you, you simply need to help your team with a well placed skill 1 and damage.
And if enemies keep ignoring you, kill them and get some good items ^^


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Originally Posted by evilcamba

about the 3rd skill..

hmn..

what about making the target bleed? that would cause dmg the more/farther the target move?

the other skills are pretty neat and balanced imo..

Rupture or what? Idea would be nice, but this is too similar to Rupture then.


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Changes:

Hero:

• Ms reduced from 300 to 295
• Added some issues, things to discuss.

First skill:

• I capped the damage, the sliding is still unlimited.

Second skill:

• Changed description
• Increased the duration, but therefore made a cap of attacks for each buff

Third skill:

• Removed invis revealing, buy gems

Ult:

• Cleared description about who gets the kill: The enemy who killed Valdis will get gold and exp when Valdis dies, meaning as soon as this skill activates.

About third skill's effect:
Well, I have to options:

First is suggested by talkingmuffin: You simply reduce MS of enemy based on distance charged.

Advantages:

• killing of enemies easier
• nice synergies with Ult
• good synergies with skill 2, enemies cant really run, will perhaps attack you

Disadvantages:

• Not really helping the original concept of the skill to initiate.

Second is an idea by me, evolved from all the stun suggestions: Basic idea is to take the enemy and knock him behind you.

Advantages:

• Nice initiating, you can let the lowest HP enemy hero be raped by your allies standing behind you
• Great synergy with Glazed Ground, you can place the Glazed Ground behind you, to push the enemy even further back and even kill him with the damage.
• therefore as well some synergies with Ult

Disadvantages:

• Not much synergy with skill 2, but since this is used as initiate move, it has some as well

So, what would be your opinion?

Edit: Holy shit, long post is long

Edit 2: Sorry talkingmuffin for wrong credits

[talkingmuffin]

Originally Posted by JJE92

About third skill's effect:
Well, I have to options:

First is suggested by king.james: You simply reduce MS of enemy based on distance charged.

Advantages:

• killing of enemies easier
• nice synergies with Ult
• good synergies with skill 2, enemies cant really run, will perhaps attack you

Disadvantages:

• Not really helping the original concept of the skill to initiate.

Second is an idea by me, evolved from all the stun suggestions: Basic idea is to take the enemy and knock him behind you.

Advantages:

• Nice initiating, you can let the lowest HP enemy hero be raped by your allies standing behind you
• Great synergy with Glazed Ground, you can place the Glazed Ground behind you, to push the enemy even further back and even kill him with the damage.
• therefore as well some synergies with Ult

Disadvantages:

• Not much synergy with skill 2, but since this is used as initiate move, it has some as well

So, what would be your opinion?

Edit: Holy shit, long post is long

First off, that was my idea for the slow-by-how-far-you-jumped

Secondly, I like the second idea more than the slow one because it works somewhat like a Barathrum Nether Strike (his ultimate). The idea of pushing your hero back from where they were running hasn't been used in anything other than Nether Strike and it is a very powerful ability. It would also have synergy with Glazed Ground as you said.

Thirdly, I think chadpiety123's idea of taunting enemies to attack you is great, but just as he and everyone else has said it would be very similar to Axe's skill (but come on, why can't we have 2 taunts in this game, we have over 50 stuns).

[evilcamba]

rupture.. yeah.. forgot that skill.. XD

anyways..

id go for the skill by kingjames..

but ms reduction is pretty boring and
target can escape making it bad for initiation..

[JJE92]

Originally Posted by talkingmuffin

First off, that was my idea for the slow-by-how-far-you-jumped

Sorry ^^.
Corrected my mistake

Originally Posted by talkingmuffin

Secondly, I like the second idea more than the slow one because it works somewhat like a Barathrum Nether Strike (his ultimate). The idea of pushing your hero back from where they were running hasn't been used in anything other than Nether Strike and it is a very powerful ability. It would also have synergy with Glazed Ground as you said.

Well, that is one of the problems perhaps, its rather similar to Nether Strike. Difference is that this isnt targeting an enemy, doesnt damage and pushes into the opposite direction ^^

Originally Posted by talkingmuffin

Thirdly, I think chadpiety123's idea of taunting enemies to attack you is great, but just as he and everyone else has said it would be very similar to Axe's skill (but come on, why can't we have 2 taunts in this game, we have over 50 stuns).

The problem isnt really that only this skill is similar to Berserker's Call, but that the combo of Killer Instincts + Glacial Hide is pretty similar to Axe's combo of Berserker's Call + Counter Helix. Not only the skills would be similar, but as well the combo.


Im really twisted, I cant decide between slow and pushback. Problem is that the second has similarities to Nether Strike, but I guess slow isnt that original either ^^


Thx for comment, evilcamba ^^
Well, Ill wait for further replies and decide then.

[evilcamba]

make it a small aoe push then..

after poping in front of the target and pushing.. they are slowed..

it could help ruining positions and such too..

just my opinion though..

[JJE92]

Originally Posted by evilcamba

make it a small aoe push then..

Brought me to an idea

Well, just as example. The one enemy is pushed back 400 units. If it encounters another enemy unit, the enemy gets pushed back 400 units as well (direction is calculated via angle). If more enemies hit enemies during pushback, they get pushbacked as well. If pushbacked enemies hit other enemies during pushback, they are pushbacked as well, and so on.
--> Some sort of chain reaction, which is possible, but of course, it doesnt always happen.

[NinoDoko]

Well, each time you are attacked, the hide gives you damage. Each time huskar loses hp, he get's AS + Damage. Wendigo gets armor instead of AS

I'm not saying the ability is bad. It's great actually, i'd like to see it in DotA. However, i just find it strange that, if i was a wendigo, and if i spawned ice shards when i'm attacked, i doubt i'd use them to sharpen my claws. I'd rather hit someone with them. However, if i think i can do something to people that try to cut/hit/do something to me, i'd freeze them so they don't do it again, or do it slowly.

[damN_Grave]

I like the chages!
And how about Killer Instincts doing damage, reducing the enemy's armour, but reducing Valdis' ms (like what happens to Raijin)??

[leMONQUakE]

Originally Posted by JJE92

Well, just as example. The one enemy is pushed back 400 units. If it encounters another enemy unit, the enemy gets pushed back 400 units as well (direction is calculated via angle). If more enemies hit enemies during pushback, they get pushbacked as well. If pushbacked enemies hit other enemies during pushback, they are pushbacked as well, and so on.
--> Some sort of chain reaction, which is possible, but of course, it doesnt always happen.

1 word, AWESOME! a chain push back would be nice and it really synergies Glazed Ground as well.

[Shinig4mi]

@Glazed Ground
the idea of the skill is good. but what happens with a well placed shackles/frostbite/stunn ...? is the dps only dealt when the enemy is moving or as long as he is on the ice? this would be a load of damage ^^. maybe you should change it to "... as long as the enemy moves, he receive the damage ..."

@Glacial Hide
what a masochistic skill. i hope the mathcraft is correct: max. +60 damage / max. +20 armor. when this is correct it sounds good for me.


@Killer Instincts
auto-leap is great. maybe you can add a slow or something like that to this skill.

@Enraged Spirit of the Yeti
thx a lot for using my ulti ^_^. your tweaks are realy good, from the ms/ias increase to the spellusage.

[chadpiety123]

I've got a brilliant idea for Killer Instincts that fits and is unique:

With an insatiable hunger, the Wendigo instantly charges to the enemy with the lowest HP around him and with his claws inflicts Sheer Panic into him. Units under Sheer Panic are silenced and have their armors reduced by 4.

Level 1 - 400 search AoE, lasts 1 seconds
Level 2 - 600 search AoE, lasts 3 seconds
Level 3 - 800 search AoE, lasts 5 seconds
Level 4 - 1000 search AoE, lasts 7 seconds

You could probably change the numbers, but I personally think this is perfect. Silence is great as it forces the opponent to just attack your or run, and it also inhibits them to use some of their escape mechanisms (except items of course). The armor reduction always great for any attacker. I personally think this is better than an overused stun, or an uncertain slow.

And also just a point of warning, don't add unnecessary and/or complicated limitations. They mostly ruin the feel of the hero.

Also, for balance's sake, I think 12 seconds cap at all levels for Ultimate is good enough, because if you think about it, fighting you in this state is stupid as you're already dead, and you can't exactly run. I think this is necessary for balance.

Another idea for balancing Ultimate is giving it a "damage cap." Once the damage cap has been reached, The state or mode is canceled (you die). The damage cap could be a static high value, or probably a considerable initial value + some chunks depending on the units killed. I hope you're getting this idea, and it's just something I'd like to toss in the discussion. Might help right?