Slark Item Build Discussion

[IAmTheSpoon]

I discussed with my friend about an item build for Slark.

After discussing it with the forum, we got to a some sort of item tree.

Early:
Branches+QB+tango's/clarities/salves
Later, Wand or/and PMS

Considering he's often in the middle of combat and often targetted by various spells, a Wand is useful. A PMS on the other hand solves early ranged harassment issues.

Core:
Treads
MoM OR Vitality Booster OR Point Booster OR 3 Wraith Bands/Bracers
BKB OR/AND Armlet
Diffusal Blade(if you haven't taken MoM) OR SnY(if you haven't taken MoM)

Explanation
Neither Armlet nor BKB is worth rushing. No armlet simply because you can't take the degen yet and not BKB because you got other needs by then, specifically improving your HP/ganking capabilities. That is why it is taken second - BKB either with or without Armlet.
A Vitality Booster/Point Booster is later evolved into a HoT/Skadi. Cheap raw HP/Mana.
MoM wins over HotD due to the fact that he's a ganker and requires the MS/IAS.
Still, there is Skadi which is great if it wasn't for the cost. SnY is a cheaper alternative.
The Diffusal Blade is a situational item if you got enough survivability and if there are some annoying purgables to take care of. If you take that, the natural late-game continue is Manta.
An Armlet-> BKB or BKB -> Armlet is a must after an early item(s) in competetive terms.

Late game:
Manta Style - Only if you have taken Diffusal Blade and Armlet
Eye of Skadi - If you have taken Point Booster and haven't taken any other orb
Vladimir's Offering - Only if you have taken Eye of Skadi or SnY
In all other cases Heart of Tarrasque - especially if you have taken Vitality Booster
Buriza-do-Kyanon is a follow-up to Heart of Tarrasque, if you have any space left.


Pretty complicated by far BUT we got rid of other options, so all we need now is to order it nicely. Feel free to comment on it and change the order or cross out something. With a good explanation, of course.

So there is a few questions:
PMS vs Wand - Should you take one of them or both of them?
MoM vs Vitality/Point Booster vs 3 Wraith Bands/Bracers - Which of those you think win between these?
MoM vs Diffusal Blade vs SnY - If you had to cross out one of these out of options, which ones would those be and why?

Comment and try to narrow up the options if possible.

[Kris]

Slark is a trash hero that can only really shine in pubs where true sight is seldom bought and chain disables/nukes are unheard of.

Str Treads
PMS
Armlet
-game state

(if you are playing a melee agi that is not named geo and you don't get pms you are probably doing something wrong...)

[doomsheep]

PT, Bracers
Hotd
AC
Sata
Basher

bkb at some point if needed.

[ven_veng]

I rush MoM on him early game. Makes ES more effective then farm Basher. As of his little hp I beg to defer coz he needed that extra life steal to further stay on the clash. I have been playing him and his fast hp regen doesn't come in handy once the other side FF on you.

[IAmTheSpoon]

Thanks for the EXPLANATIONS and for READING what I WROTE about EXPLAINING your ITEM BUILD.

I rush MoM on him early game. Makes ES more effective then farm Basher. As of his little hp I beg to defer coz he needed that extra life steal to further stay on the clash. I have been playing him and his fast hp regen doesn't come in handy once the other side FF on you.

MoM makes you die like trash unless you got BKB, no offense. HotD on the other hand grants you no IAS to support it.

Slark is a trash hero that can only really shine in pubs where true sight is seldom bought and chain disables/nukes are unheard of.

To be honest, 5.5 seconds is something so short that makes people reluctant to use true sight against him. The moment people get a gem he does no longer need his ultimate to initiate. As for chain disable/nuke - that ruins everyone, not only Slark.

[Kris]

Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon

Thanks for the [SIZE="7"]
To be honest, 5.5 seconds is something so short that makes people reluctant to use true sight against him. The moment people get a gem he does no longer need his ultimate to initiate. As for chain disable/nuke - that ruins everyone, not only Slark.

There are these things called bluewards, they kill 800 HP melee agi's that rely on invis to survive. Other heroes have skills that grant more than joke HP regen and MS bonus to protect them.

[IAmTheSpoon]

There are these things called bluewards, they kill 800 HP melee agi's that rely on invis to survive. Other heroes have skills that grant more than joke HP regen and MS bonus to protect them.

He does not rely on Invis to survive He needs it to gank, and ONLY early-game, which he doesn't have to do for the sake of jungling, for example. He relies on not being seen or being sufficiently far away to survive. That's a difference and that renders the investment of mass wards more or less useless.

Still, stay on topic, please

[Lanther]

Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon

MoM makes you die like trash unless you got BKB, no offense. HotD on the other hand grants you no IAS to support it.

Why people always think that MoM means that you must activate it when you are being disabled to death or when you are in a team clash with lots of AoE?

MoM isn't taken because of its orb effect.It is taken because it's the cheapest way of getting IAS and MS.MoM price is 1900 while Hyperstone is 2100.MoM gives 100 IAS and 20% MS while Hyperstone gives 55 IAS.

You use MoM to gank,chase and escape.Yeah,escape,you use it when opposite team has already cast disable and you flee,because you get superior MS to them,and after they're no longer seeing you,Shadow Dance passive is activated and you get 522 MS and regen.

[IAmTheSpoon]

Originally Posted by Lanther

Why people always think that MoM means that you must activate it when you are being disabled to death or when you are in a team clash with lots of AoE?

MoM isn't taken because of its orb effect.It is taken because it's the cheapest way of getting IAS and MS.MoM price is 1900 while Hyperstone is 2100.MoM gives 100 IAS and 20% MS while Hyperstone gives 55 IAS.

You use MoM to gank,chase and escape.Yeah,escape,you use it when opposite team has already cast disable and you flee,because you get superior MS to them,and after they're no longer seeing you,Shadow Dance passive is activated and you get 522 MS and regen.

Then I guess BKB and Basher would be the followups to MoM, in your opinion?

[Snake]

Op, that build only works in pub, no Qb for him that's for sure Stats is the best for him, str power threads, a couple of bracers bkb, and then go for a luxury item, tp and magic wand.

This hero sucks imo(too low str, besides there are better invi carries than him xd, althought i like his passives skills very much)

[Kris]

Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon

He does not rely on Invis to survive He needs it to gank, and ONLY early-game, which he doesn't have to do for the sake of jungling, for example. He relies on not being seen or being sufficiently far away to survive. That's a difference and that renders the investment of mass wards more or less useless.

Still, stay on topic, please

Last time i checked he just died to any team with lion/dagon on it due to his extreme fragility.

Perhaps you should get out of pubs and play with him against competent players who will not allow you to simply auto them to death as they sit at the edge of pounce aoe.


Given that your over 10k item builds are rather silly it seems to be a good place to start testing.

[doomsheep]

HotD gives okay stats and makes woodsing a lot easier. since its used in the most awesome item on slark and there are no other low-tier items that are good on slark i like to build it. given NC's playstyle lifesteal is a semi-okay orb on him even before satanic.

assault i go for because i don't like butter and battlefury is crap. its cheaper, has better build up and helps your team. negative armor is also pretty awesome.

basher is for bashing, lawl. at the point i'll steal a lot of stats and make good use of it.

[IAmTheSpoon]

Originally Posted by doomsheep

HotD gives okay stats and makes woodsing a lot easier. since its used in the most awesome item on slark and there are no other low-tier items that are good on slark i like to build it. given NC's playstyle lifesteal is a semi-okay orb on him even before satanic.

assault i go for because i don't like butter and battlefury is crap. its cheaper, has better build up and helps your team. negative armor is also pretty awesome.

basher is for bashing, lawl. at the point i'll steal a lot of stats and make good use of it.

HoT> Assault. For survivability purposes.
HotD may give better wooding but not better ganking, I'm afraid. An armlet increases your damage and attack speed while a diffusal grants you agility mana burn and purge and so on. Unless you get Armlet and THEN HotD, it may work, but i am still to figure that one out. Judging on the total cost, it takes a few swings and creep kills to get it going. Maybe too many.

Originally Posted by Snake

Op, that build only works in pub, no Qb for him that's for sure Stats is the best for him, str power threads, a couple of bracers bkb, and then go for a luxury item, tp and magic wand.

This hero sucks imo(too low str, besides there are better invi carries than him xd, althought i like his passives skills very much)

Which build?
QB doesn't cost a lot and you can still get a few branches for early stats. Armlet > Couple of bracers, imo.
I don't feel the need for magic wand - he's not THAT mana dependent.

Originally Posted by Kris

Last time i checked he just died to any team with lion/dagon on it

Perhaps you should get out of pubs and play with him against competent players


Given that your over 10k item builds are rather silly it seems to be a good place to start

You are free to suggest something better What would you get after your Armlet, depending on the game state?
As of the current state I agree he's squishy to larger nukes but I think Ice will fix it soon.

[joebh]

slark's main problem is that he dies in like 1(or 2) nukes. anyway with that major con aside, i build mass hp on him so i can last longer than 2 seconds or a nuke longer.

satanic or SnY is best orb for him IMO because of the extra hp and tanking it gives.

the longer you stay alive in battle = more stats leeching = enemies in a clash will have to focus on you for a few seconds longer to kill you giving your allies time to take advantage of the situation.

[Nored]

Why Manta?

Use it before stealing a good amount of stats, it sucks due to your low innate stat gain.

Use it after, what's the point? Enemies should be dead already anyway.

Besides that, in any competent game, you're gonna need a Linkens/BKB. If you firstpick Slark like all the other pubbies, you're gonna DEFINITELY need to get a BKB-of course, this operates under the assumption that the enemies AREN'T complete noobs.

I do agree with joe. Although I personally think SnY is outclassed by every other orb, it gives Slark what he needs-more attack speed to start off his stat steal as well as the HP to survive long enough to make use of the stats.

Slark does well with a Hood. He needs the magic resistance to survive the chain nukes that are so often used to counter him.

[FruitLord]

You say that chain disable kills any hero. The difference between Slark and other heroes is you don't actually need to chain disables. One disable is often enough to kill him.

[Kris]

After armlet on slark i would have to base my choice on the heroes in game.

If there was a large amount of burst damage and disable i would opt for BKB since slarks DPS is rather independent of his items as long as he can continue to hit his target(s)

If there were a low amount of said abilities i would opt for some cheep HP (vita booster) and AC to better improve survivability against physical DPS and improve my own in fight damage.

Manta looks like it would be a good choice however it sends mixed messages. On one hand you want to break it right when you pounce for the burst damage. If you do so then you lose out on the bonus stats to your images and they will likely die very fast. Alternatively you can break manta after a long fight however the images are only useful for taking a tower at that point since the stats will be gone by the next fight in most cases.

Diffusal is diffidently a possible item on him however he lacks a spell like smoke screen to really make it core in all games. It is a viable item as a counter as it doesn't hurt his core that much. (he would be far stronger with the old manta since it had the diffusal build up and +350 HP to fix all of his problems)

[Lanther]

Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon

Then I guess BKB and Basher would be the followups to MoM, in your opinion?

I would get HoT in most of cases.If many of the opponent spells are blocked by BKB,then I would get it.If the game last enough to buy Basher,then I would buy it.

Originally Posted by Nored

Slark does well with a Hood. He needs the magic resistance to survive the chain nukes that are so often used to counter him.

Not so good.Hood is expensive and with its price you could buy vitality booster,cloak and save some gold.The regen part of defiance is almost useless on him and the extra magic reduction isn't helping if you don't have pure HP.

[IAmTheSpoon]

Originally Posted by Lanther

I would get HoT in most of cases.If many of the opponent spells are blocked by BKB,then I would get it.If the game last enough to buy Basher,then I would buy it.

HoT right after Treads PMS and MoM? A bit crazy in terms of money, I say.
Tell me what do you think of MoM comparing to HotD->Satanic.

Originally Posted by joebh

slark's main problem is that he dies in like 1(or 2) nukes. anyway with that major con aside, i build mass hp on him so i can last longer than 2 seconds or a nuke longer.

satanic or SnY is best orb for him IMO because of the extra hp and tanking it gives.

the longer you stay alive in battle = more stats leeching = enemies in a clash will have to focus on you for a few seconds longer to kill you giving your allies time to take advantage of the situation.

16 strength is not worth spending so much money for and the maim is average.
A basher would be better and is cheaper for pinning down enemies.
The question is, whether HotD-> Satanic or MoM is a better SURVIVABILITY investment.

Originally Posted by Kris

After armlet on slark i would have to base my choice on the heroes in game.

If there was a large amount of burst damage and disable i would opt for BKB since slarks DPS is rather independent of his items as long as he can continue to hit his target(s)

If there were a low amount of said abilities i would opt for some cheep HP (vita booster) and AC to better improve survivability against physical DPS and improve my own in fight damage.

Manta looks like it would be a good choice however it sends mixed messages. On one hand you want to break it right when you pounce for the burst damage. If you do so then you lose out on the bonus stats to your images and they will likely die very fast. Alternatively you can break manta after a long fight however the images are only useful for taking a tower at that point since the stats will be gone by the next fight in most cases.

Diffusal is diffidently a possible item on him however he lacks a spell like smoke screen to really make it core in all games. It is a viable item as a counter as it doesn't hurt his core that much. (he would be far stronger with the old manta since it had the diffusal build up and +350 HP to fix all of his problems)

Diffusal + Manta combo works because because of Pounce or/and ult you always get a few hits in, allowing your images to have more agility = more attack speed = more mana break = More damage.
I believe that Manta is good for both burst damage and for "charging" the manta.
The problem of this build however is that your HP will be a bit crappy until you get your ultimate orb - which might take a while. So It seems it's a build better left for jungling.

Otherwise one should focus purely on HP. An assault cuirass is not worth it as you got enough armor from stolen agility, imo.

Then, modifying the above, how about these 2:

Build 1
Armlet->Diffusal->Manta Style

Build 2
HotD/MoM->Armlet or/and BKB(order depends on farm and opposition)->(Optional basher)->Satanic/HoT

Judge on those.
Now, HotD->Satanic or MoM?

[joebh]

well i honestly dont see the point in mass stacking agility and IAS items. slark has one of the best dps enhancing passive, which is basically all he needs dps-wise.

vanguard should be core IMO, along with magic wand and armlet. for situational id leave disffusial and bkb / hood. and extension would either be hotd -> satanic(more tankish), SnY(more tankish), or if youre feeling lucky go for MoM.

also dont undestimate +16 STR on a hero with the most pathetic str growth in the game, even ench laughs at that.

and again isnt the whole point of slark to try to survive and leech as many stats as you can?(and yes i know its virtually impossible to survive with slark in a clash most of the time)