[Slark] The Paper Jaws

IAmTheSpoon · 01-27-2010, 04:13 PM

Slark

Forum version and the Guide Version

This guide is dedicated to anyone wishing to play Slark. Due to the hero difficulty he is not recommended for total beginners. This is a community guide, which means that I will need your help to make this guide better ^^ Feel free to add sections and graphical additions - I will credit them if necessary.

Information about Slark's skills and stats can be found Here(Click me).
Additional mechanics details of his skills can be found Here(Click me).

Pros and Cons of Slark

+ The best heal for free
+ Great counter against heroes relying on stats/raw damage
+ Ridiculous ganker, especially 1vs1
+ Able to counter debuffs
+ Built-in counter-ward skill
+ Does not need regeneration
- 2nd lowest HP in game
- Item dependent late-game
- Easily counter-picked and easily counterable

What kind of hero am I playing?

Slark the Nightcrawler is a ganker, meaning that he gets cheap items and kills heroes so that carries meaning those the most item-dependent for fullfilling their role can farm in peace. He does that mostly mid-game. He can shift to be a carry-late game although that's not his natural role.
He has all that a ganker needs - burst damage provided by Dark Pact, an escape mechanism and pin down skill - Pounce and a skill to hunt - Shadow Dance.
What separates Slark from other gankers is the way he does it. He is a hit-and-run type of hero - he quickly runs in, eliminates an enemy or two and runs away, only to strike back again, hitting stronger. Imagine him on the basis of a cavalry knight. The only difference is that he's a parasite, meaning he gets stronger with each skirmish unless you kill him outright.
His secondary role is to nullify the potential of tanks and carries in team battles. Essence shift, reduced stats, easier to kill and they deal less damage. Simple.
To master Slark you need to master three things - Chasing, Escaping and Surviving.

When to (not) pick Slark?

Slark is recommended against physical-based lineups, as well as lineups lacking in nuke spells. 2 or 3 carries relying on DPS to kill or/and tanks should make your day. The reason is because you can kill all heroes alike, but you're also nullifying the threat from enemy carries. It is best to take Slark as one of the last heroes of your team, as Slark can be easily counter-picked.

Do NOT pick Slark against nuke and disable-heavy lineups. This is because your paper HP does not allow you such encounters.

How do I use my skills to fulfill my role?

Looks might be deceving. This may look like a weak AoE tool but in fact its uses are much useful than they may seem initially.

a) As a farming/pushing tool - Once it hits level 4 feel free to use it to push or to farm in both jungle and the lane. Be aware of enemies that might abuse the loss of HP and gank you though. Safest way to use it is to use it as far away from your enemies as possible when farming.
b) As a ganking tool - Your early-mid damage isn't too shining so this helps you net a kill or two.
c) As a defense tool - WHAT? Yes. After two seconds, you lose most of the most annoying debuffs in the game. The key is to predict when some of them will be cast on you 2 seconds later. Practice makes perfect. Here's a list of the debuffs:

As you may notice, by your Dark Pact you may remove such annoying spells as Rhasta's Shackles, Venomancer's Poison Nova, Slithice's Ensnare, Rooftrellen's Overgrowth, Gondar's Track or even Dust of Appearance, Amplify damage(as of 6.66b) and Bane's Fiend's Grip. Most specifically, STUNS! ABUSE IT! I cannot stress this enough.
Tip 1 - Use Dark pact right before Shadow Dance ends. The natural instinct of your enemy is to stun/disable Slark the moment he shows up again. Dark Pact triggers and the disables/stuns are off, allowing you to escape or continue your pursuit.
Tip 2 - Use mindgames in pubs. An early Dark Pact can make you look the one dying while a moment later the tides might turn around.

A combination of Pudge's hook and Mirana's leap.
You use it for ganking and for escaping. This skill may be a bit difficult to beginners. Imagine being an animal and you have to jump directly on your foe. The leash area of effect is only 110 which means you must be accurate enough to be right at your foe(melee range) for the leash to attach. Be wary that the leash also applies to creeps. The most guaranteed way to leap is to leap on a target hero just after you striked them once or when they run away in a straight pattern.
Running away is simple. Jump away from your enemies, preferably not into another enemy unless intended to keep him/her from not chasing you.
Make use of the terrain. You can jump over cliffs and jump into places people won't go, allowing you to teleport back to base or shorten your way from one place to another. Or should I say, from foe to foe.

Tip 1 - In a bit narrow areas or when with a teammate, feel free to use the Pounce time to get ahead of your enemy and block his route of escape.
Tip 2 - Abuse this against low-hp heroes just wanting to leap/rofl out/go invisible/etc. In the case of invisible heroes, have a habit of using Dark Pact right before they go invisible. As Dark Pact works against invisible heroes, this might net you a kill in close situations.
Tip 3 - Try to use Dark pact in combination with either Shadow Dance or Pounce. Try to predict when you'll be most likely stunned/disabled in 2 seconds.
Tip 4 - Self-damage of Dark Pact is non-lethal. You CANNOT suicide.
Mini-tip - At the start of the game, feel free to block creeps. If they come quicker due to their speed, jump over them.

This might seem like a no-brainer, but there is the importance of priority. You should focus on Strength heroes first, dps/carry heroes second and nukers/spellcasters last. Convince your teammates to prioritize the reverse.

Tip 1 - Slark's damage early-game is really deceiving. While you might deal 50sh damage, remember, that you take 1 strength from non-strength heroes and 2 strength from strength-based heroes. This gives you additional19/38 damage against them as early as level 2.
Tip 2 - The length of Essence shift is 60 seconds for a reason. Use all of it. If you lack an enemy hero to gank nearby, unload the massive dps on some jungle creeps or towers.

The skill has 2 sides, the active part and the passive part.
You use the active part(invisibility) similarily to Pounce, meaning you can use it for both escaping and initiating. The smoke might seem like an overkill, but the truth is that the smoke as well as you moving like a swarm of parasites adds chaos to the battle.
Abuse Dark Pact and Pounce during your ultimate, it's only 5.5 seconds!

The passive part is much more interesting. Until level 6 you are more or less like a piece of garbage unable to do much in the lane. Once you hit level 6 though, you are able to sustain your life with more or less ease.
To regain your life BUT to be in experience range of creeps(1000) you got two methods:
A) Is to wait until night and make use of the fact that creeps have a vision of 800(1400 during day) so be between the 800-1000 range of creeps
B) Or, much easier, is to hide between trees and juke spots.

To gain the passive bonus you have to OUT of sight of your enemies. This means you don't have to be neccesarily outside their circular day/night range, but to be in the enemies's fog of war. This is very intuitive and might take practice to master but if you do, you're really likely to escape your pursuers, unless you run into an unexpected enemy.

This skill is what makes him a hit-and-runner ganker and not a carry.

NOTE: The passive bonus also wears off when seen by towers.
NOTE 2: The passive bonus does not wear off near neutral creeps, only unless attacked by them. Abuse it during jungling.

Tip 1: You should get to know how to juke if you want to remain out of vision. Juking means manouvering between trees and paths to be able to remain out of sight, confuse your enemy and escape. In Slark's case, this is vital, as a few seconds out of sight can get you back in the heat of battle and maybe even score a kill or two.

Here is a map of juking paths made by Lycan. Feel free to use it as reference.
A more extensive read on this and other DotA strategy tips can be found Here(By Lycan, click me!)
Tip 2: Some targetted spells(mostly those that throw a projectile) can be avoided(or some of their effects), such as Hellfire Blast, Storm Bolt etc. if you activate your invisibility while it's thrown at you. In a team battle it may be difficult but in 1vs1 situations the projectile is usually slow enough to dodge in time. Have your fingers on the skill hotkeys at all time.
Tip 3: When ganking and not focused, a good idea is to wait out until you lose some health. You gain approximately 12/18/24% max HP in 5.5 seconds just by this ultimate.
Tip 4: If any enemy has sight of you, your passive gets removed. Use this to tell your teammates if there is an invisible hero or a ward of any kind nearby.
Tip 5: There is a 0.7 second casting delay between removal and activation of the skill. Hide in a juking spot and you'll have a temporary charge upon your enemy, often giving you an element of surprise.
Tip 6: You may use all sorts of items without revealing yourself. Most notably, this involves the teleportation scroll.

Here is a picture by Lycan depicting the range of your skills.
The Dark Pact AoE is 350. That's how far your damage goes after 2 seconds. Remember though that it's dealt in intervals.
The fat line shows your Pounce range, while the small circle shows just how close you should be to your enemy upon landing for the 3.5 sec leash to attach.
Click the real-size picture to see the real range.

Level 1 - Pounce/Essence Shift
Level 2 - Essence Shift/Pounce
Level 3 - Dark Pact
Level 4 - Dark Pact
Level 5 - Dark Pact
Level 6 - Shadow Dance
Level 7 - Dark Pact
Level 8 - Pounce
Level 9 - Pounce
Level 10 - Pounce
Level 11 - Shadow Dance
Level 12 - Essence Shift
Level 13 - Essence Shift
Level 14 - Essence Shift
Level 15 - Stats
Level 16 - Shadow Dance

Pounce is taken at level 1 for escape purposes. Don't let the small distance fool you - you can e.g. dodge being trapped by an Earthshaker's fissure.
Dark Pact is maxed first due to the fact that your priority is getting your offensive potential up as quickly as possible.
One level of essence shift is required for early-mid game ganks. Any more is not needed until later due to the 15 second duration being enough. If you find your lane to lack disables and you got the proper environment to be aggressive, feel free to get Shift first.
Pounce is maxed second because of the range bonus is required to adjust to enemies speeding up.
Essence Shift is naturally maxed last and Shadow Dance is taken when necessary due to its usefulness.
For a more defensive build, max Pounce first with only one level of Dark pact at level 4. For an offensive build, max Essence shift first with only one level of pounce and dark pact early. This build is highly efficient against melee/short range lanes as well, because the essence shift provides you a means of harassment and lane control, while dark pact is not so efficient.

Slark has two issues. He needs to pump up his offensive potential to start ganking as quickly as possible but he needs to boost his HP as quickly as possible not to die, as well. This item build also reflects and keeps to his hit-and-run playing style. This item build is meant to be as all-round and as for many uses as possible. This does not make this the item the best for YOUR specific game, but to make it as good as possible for an average, non-competitive game.

Early Game Items:

Competetive games:

Non-competitive games:

You take the branches for a Good Game and a later Magic Stick, while the Shield protects you against early harassment and improves your lasthitting. The heals are necessary in non-public. Feel free to exchange the branch/heal with 1 or 2 clarities if necessary. Competitive games don't require heals as you would rather go with a babysitter with extra heals or a healing spell.

The moment you use your heals(trust me, you WILL), get your hands on the Magic Wand and 1-2 Wraiths. Don't take any more Wraiths as you will have issues with your inventory space. The Magic Wand solves your mana problems while the Wraiths provide a cheap bonus.

Boots Choice

The next Item you're going to get are the Power Treads, all pieces of which can be bought in the side shop.
We choose these as Slark desperately needs attack speed and stats to do what he does best. Set them according to your needs. In a majority of cases, strength is the best option.

Core item and orb choice discussion

Sange & Yasha or Diffusal Blade

Pin-down items. These 2 items fit to the largest amount of situations. Both orbs are equally good for him.
S&Y is known to be a pretty mediocre item but Essence Shift makes it actually worth it on him and make the maim almost reliable. Also, both Yasha and Sange increase his offensive and defensive potential at the same time.
The Diffusal Blade on the other hand quickly burns the target's mana, often rendering your foe unable to use their escape skill.(e.g. Blink)
S&Y follows the rule of "hit and run", while Diffusal Blade follows the rule of "kill before they kill you". The slow from Purge is comparable to that you gain via Maim, with the difference that Purge is instantaneous, removes buffs and is ranged BUT it is limited to a cooldown and charges, while S&Y lacks the above pro's but it's more reliable as a general slow. Bear in mind the lack of survivability on Diffusal Blade. Depends what you need, really.

When to choose which, then? Diffusal Blade is suggested for competitive games where mana is key and the Purge could be helpful to your allies and as a counter versus summons. Additionally, you are more quickly fit for team battles do to your offensive potential. S&Y on the other hand works great as a whole rather than in parts, so it is suggested for pubs where you got more time to farm.

How about other orbs?

Helm of the Dominator/Satanic and Eye of Skadi

Carry items. HotD and Satanic is especially effective versus hard carries. Feel free to use Dominate of HotD for more ganking options. The minus of HotD/Satanic lies in the mediocrity of HotD in midlate game until you get Satanic, making you resolve to other items and your allies for your all-round potential in that time.
Skadi on the other hand is a luxurious alternative to S&Y so if you can farm it up, there is no orb superior to it. The minus here is the cost.

Mjollnir and Desolator

Glass Cannon Items. You gain no direct survivability whatsoever through them and only Mjollnir is situational due to Static shield's use - use if applicable(e.g. Axe in your team). Thus Desolator is the weakest option due to bad build-up and no survival boost.

Verdict: Take a pin-down orb if you can rely on your team for your survival. Carry items are better when you can't rely on your team or when you got sufficient environment to farm uninterrupted for a period. Glass Cannon items are not recommended, but remain situational, should you encounter such a rare situation in which those items would be useful.

Note: I am NOT REJECTING those orbs. I just picked the most all-round options suitable for the most occasions. Feel free to adjust your orb item to your needs if necessary.

Follow-ups

Armlet of Mordiggian

If you feel you need extra protection against physical or/and burst damage, get this. This item is not rushed as your low HP doesn't support the degen by then yet. It's just too risky.

Black King's Bar

A must in any game where nukes/disables are dominant. It allows you to continue attacking - something you do. The Hp/damage bonus is also really nice.

Hood/Pipe/Vanguard

These three items are highly recommended to take in situations in which you don't have the proper healing/protective support from your allies. Just one of them will suffice, depending on the enemy lineup - you want to take the Hood against magic-damage based lineups, while Vanguard against physical-damage based lineups. A pipe is a late-game luxury and a fancy addition versus AoE lineups.

Manta Style

For burst-damage and pushing line-ups. An Armlet is recommended for a boosted effect, as the strength passes to images. The stolen agility passes to images but they don't steal stats by themselves. As its cooldown is 50 seconds, use it in battle first time for burst damage and after 50 seconds use it for the "charged" images.

Cranium Basher
While it is unwise to get this item without a proper HP and attack speed boost, the item finds its use should you require another disable midlate-game.

In non-competitive games, feel free to skip the above for luxuries if needed.

Luxuries

Assault Cuirass, Butterfly and Orchid Malevolence

After Buriza, Assault Cuirass provides you great EHP, attack speed and a nice desolator-like effect. Being a late-game item, being a siege machine is useful. Butterfly serves as an overkill vs DPS carries option. Orchid Malevolence is your ultimate ganking/burst-damage option. It's up to you.

Rejected Items

Mask of Madness

The only orb I highly discourage, the 30% increased damage against you and the mediocrity of other gains make this item a no-no. You got the second smallest strength out of all heroes and even a few seconds of berserk in a team fight could be perilous for you and using MoM without Berserk is a pure waste of money. In short - you're too paper to use this. Some people might advise Dark Pact's removal of debuffs/stuns/disables is enough to consider MoM. Even if you're lucky to negate a certain portion of a disable, you won't escape massive nukes. Additionally, the self-damage of Dark Pact is amplified.

Heart of Tarrasque

It's not worth the effort(3200 is a bit hard to farm) and the 8 seconds delay makes the additional regen not too useful. Your ultimate is enough for regen while other items can be served for HP which are cheaper and better in building up.

Vladimir's Offering

Best served on a teammate. You don't have the time nor the money nor the item space(!) to invest in something that can be replaced by something more useful. You don't need lifesteal to survive, all you need is to be able to get away enough to get the proper regeneration. Use your skills, not your muscles, broadly speaking.

Radiance

Sparkles won't make your death any prettier. You just won't live enough to use it.

Early game(1-11 level)

You should lane with a babysitter or someone with a good lane presence, especially if you are starting. Solo in a lane only under if you are experienced enough and under your team's consent.
Do your classic lasthitting/denying. Make sure to get as much farm as possible. When the lane is pushed away, get necessary items in the sideshop. If you're facing at least one melee hero, take advantage of harassing them - especially if they're strength heroes.
If an ally is coming to gank, surprise your enemies by using a low dark pact. At a lower level the hp loss is hardly noticable so you may surprise your enemies with some nice damage. Instinctively, they will probably back up(to get less damage) which is your opportunity to Pounce. If they stay, they are dead.
Try to be helpful to your teammate but avoid initiating first unless chasing. Slark is NOT a tower-diving hero, so abuse mindgames and try to net as many kills as possible away from the enemy tower.

Mid-game(11-20)

By mid-game you should gank > farm > push.
Take advantage of ganks. Abuse your movement speed to be in experience range of any enemy hero killed(1000).
The moment you get your S&Y or Diffusal Blade you should focus solely on ganking while pushing becomes your second priority, farming being the third priority.
Your role in team battle is to either fish out one lone enemy and kill him OR nullify the tank/carry dps potential.
The combo is to alternate between Pounce, Dark Pact and Shadow Dance. The order depends on what type of enemy you meet, but it's usually Pounce->Dark Pact->Shadow Dance.
When on low health, do NOT escape to the fountain. Take around 10 seconds out of battle and join back, preferably netting a kill on a surprised enemy.

Late game(20-25)

Your late-game priority changes to pushing. You should initiate in as many team battles as possible, as reducing the tank/carry potential of the other team will become even more so time-requiring.
Your dps starts to wane as carries will(or not, depending on how well you did) will have item-boosting stats that will render your essence shift much less effective than it was earlier. Hopefully, by this time you and your team members have more pushing power to win.
If the tanks/carries of the other team overpowered you, this means you did your job wrong... or your ally fed them ;)

Favourite allies

Babysitters and strong lane control heroes
You'd like them in your lane to protect you from harassment and give you as much farm and preferably a kill or two. What's not to like?

Worst enemies

etc.
Nukers, Burst damage and AoE heroes

A lineup of these or a majority of these means constant death to you. They just won't allow you to approach them. They just kill you faster than you kill them and they often have the ability to surprise you or backstab you. Avoid if possible.

Image heroes

Your AoE is a bit mediocre to deal with them and you can't leech off stats of an image hero. Annoying, isn't it?

Sight, Truesight, Blademail and Mjollnir

The more sight your enemy has of you, the less you can use your ultimate, as well as your passive. In case of wards, notify your teammates of a ward nearby. Blademail just kills you. Mjollnir is a unique counter since your HP might easily take some dps but not magic damage - your increasing attack speed also backfires when put together with the Static Charge on the enemy.

Special mention:

Strygwyr and Slardar

The first one makes your ultimate's passive not trigger more than half of the time while the second one(even though you can dispell his skills) will either land a stun or an amplify damage debuff on you. Wasting 150 health just to take it off is really bothersome.

Date: 05/02/2010 15:22
Patch version: 1.24
Map: DotA Allstars 6.66(Download map here - CLICK ME)
Game mode: -cd
Game length: 22:40

Sentinel:
:admiral: Fear!SGATE, level 12 (Mid)
:cw: Abby, level 7 (Jungle)
:murloc: KuroKy!SGATE, level 13 (Bot)
:omni: Miley!SGATE, level 10 (Top)
:chen: Maldejambes, level 7 (Jungle)

Scourge:
:panda: dmZ^moods, level 9 (Mid)
:ursa: Kev-^, level 10 (Jungle)
:enchant: dmZ^Kebap-, level 6 (Jungle)
:weaver: dignitas.DeMeNt, level 11 (Bot)
:treant: dmZ^YaMuNa, level 9 (Top)

Here is a 1.24/6.66 replay of Kuroky playing Slark in Captain's Draft. While Scourge massively outpicked Sentinels by the first 4 picks, the choice of Slark was the best counter-pick they could get. Soloing bottom against Nerubian Weaver and having Chen and Enchantress messing in, Kuroky brilliantly exploited early-game. Kuro predicting was excellent, especially when using Dark Pact and controlled his HP flawlessly, ending up in 9/0 kill score, thus making Scourge forfeit in the 22 minute(!). Good Enchantress from Scourge, while Chen and Omniknight highly contributed to the team and Kuroky's score. A must watch.
Download HERE(Click me)

Alt-tab Guide

This guide is meant to be a refreshment and a summary of the above.

To Lycan for the tips and the ever-useful discussions ... and the pics :P ^^
The forum for improving the guide
Some random strangers from Garena helping me check some mechanics details

To be added:
1 or 2 more replays.
Improved English and clarity of reading
Anchors

Comment :)

Wendek · 01-27-2010, 05:49 PM

Mjollnir gives a shitload of attackspeed, the static charge is useful not only for you but for your team : think about Axe blinking in and calling with Static Charge on him. Awesome amount of damage dealt in a few seconds, especially since Helixes lose a lot of power late-game due to being physical damage.
S&Y isn't good imo, although it's better on Slark than on most heroes. Strentgh is useful indeed, but Power Treads and a few Wraiths/Bracers can do it too, maim is useless (3.5 seconds of pseudo-ensnare with Pounce and 5.5 (4.8 actually due to the delay) more where you run at an absurd speed), and the attackspeed is much lower than the one of Mjollnir or other items. If you want moar movespeed (why would you? I don't know), get a single Yasha that you can later turn into a Manta (images can be terribly powerful with all the stolen stats, although they would die easily to aoe nukes unless you have a Heart)
I don't think you tried the Mjollnir build actually, S&Y is an item that looks good for many heroes on paper but is outshined by others when actually playing. Its only real advantage is that it comes with cheap parts (which is why I used to get it on Strygwyr for instance, but that was in 6.59 before Quelling Blade and such), hence it can be considered as an alternative if you're getting owned and can't afford to save those 1610 gold for a Hammer. (or if you're bad at farming, or drunk or whatever^^)

Overall seems like good guide, or well, a good beginning. Needs more explanations on the use of Dark Pact and Pounce imo, but it's in draft so it's obviously not finished^^

iKrivetko · 01-27-2010, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Maim is constant

Epic Fail.:\

dagoncrowgg · 01-27-2010, 06:46 PM

I disagree with the S&Y core unless you are in a pub game. Armlet is much better on him, as it grants much more survivability than s&y. Also, the maim percent chance on S&Y is only 15%, meaning that main will be far from permanent.

Kild · 01-27-2010, 06:51 PM

Why level dark pact past level 1? You complain about his squishyness then you use a nuke that hurts himself.

IAmTheSpoon · 01-27-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wendek

Mjollnir gives a shitload of attackspeed, the static charge is useful not only for you but for your team : think about Axe blinking in and calling with Static Charge on him. Awesome amount of damage dealt in a few seconds, especially since Helixes lose a lot of power late-game due to being physical damage.
S&Y isn't good imo, although it's better on Slark than on most heroes. Strentgh is useful indeed, but Power Treads and a few Wraiths/Bracers can do it too, maim is useless (3.5 seconds of pseudo-ensnare with Pounce and 5.5 (4.8 actually due to the delay) more where you run at an absurd speed), and the attackspeed is much lower than the one of Mjollnir or other items. If you want moar movespeed (why would you? I don't know), get a single Yasha that you can later turn into a Manta (images can be terribly powerful with all the stolen stats, although they would die easily to aoe nukes unless you have a Heart)
I don't think you tried the Mjollnir build actually, S&Y is an item that looks good for many heroes on paper but is outshined by others when actually playing. Its only real advantage is that it comes with cheap parts (which is why I used to get it on Strygwyr for instance, but that was in 6.59 before Quelling Blade and such), hence it can be considered as an alternative if you're getting owned and can't afford to save those 1610 gold for a Hammer. (or if you're bad at farming, or drunk or whatever^^)

Overall seems like good guide, or well, a good beginning. Needs more explanations on the use of Dark Pact and Pounce imo, but it's in draft so it's obviously not finished^^

Thanks for being extensive. I did try the Mjollnir build(as other builds as well) and I was a bit dissapointed.
The problem with Mjollnir is that you can't rush it as everyone wants a piece of you. You need your strength up and quickly. Treads is there. PMS is there. Wand is there. Do you think that PMS + Wand is worse than 3 wraiths/bracers? The difference lies in practicality - all you need from the first one is the wand and the wand recipe - the rest you can get from a side shop.
If all you want from Mjollnir is the attack speed, then better to use that hyperstone(that is, if you can farm it up) for a later assault cuirass. A much better investment. As I said, Mjollnir grants NO survivability.
You want more movement speed to abuse your sight and get away quickly and then get back quickly to battle. This fits his hit-and-run battle style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kild

Why level dark pact past level 1? You complain about his squishyness then you use a nuke that hurts himself.

You use it for jungling purposes, as well as ganking and ironically, defense. You use it maybe once per battle or jungle. I will elaborate on this later on^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagoncrowgg

I disagree with the S&Y core unless you are in a pub game. Armlet is much better on him, as it grants much more survivability than s&y. Also, the maim percent chance on S&Y is only 15%, meaning that main will be far from permanent.

Armlet sure is strong, but I am not so eager to speak of it so well on the offensive side. When playing with Armlet I often have a feeling he needs some extra HP before he gets eaten by degen. If only Armlet improved movement speed... *dreams* :P Still, his HP makes it really risky for him to use it. I posted Armlet as an item you can get after S&Y though ^^ Feel free to comment further

Quote:

Originally Posted by iKrivetko

Epic Fail.:\

Maybe I overdid this statement. But the truth is that with the agility(and thus, attack speed) you are given by essence shift which often surpasses even that of a full Agility Morphling's, making it RELIABLE as a slow. Feel free to comment further

I'm still wondering whether a Armlet+BKB+Diffusal+Manta works better than S&Y+Armlet OR BKB+Heart or not. I need some extensive options on that before I am swayed.

iKrivetko · 01-27-2010, 07:38 PM

You do however admit that the statement was a fail, don't you?

IAmTheSpoon · 01-27-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iKrivetko

You do however admit that the statement was a fail, don't you?

I blame this on my English ^^ Sowwy :P

I'd rather appreciate some constructive criticism that could be useful for making the guide better rather than looking out for epic language flaws :P

Lycan · 01-27-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kild

Why level dark pact past level 1? You complain about his squishyness then you use a nuke that hurts himself.

Killstealing as well

Strategy:

SnY

In general this is sucks like hell, everyone knows this. But lets take a more indepth look about it.

It has cheap parts which is good for a hero that has serious issues for farming. Getting a manta would give you near none surviveability since just movement speed doesn't help you survive also and ulti orb is rather hard to farm for a hero like slark.
They idea about slark is as long as he can hit his enemy he'll kill it. To do so you need 2 things the ability to stay alive which is granted by Sange's Str as well as the ability to keep up which is granted by a rather unreliable Maim from sange and the movementspeed increase from Yasha. But keep in mind that with each hit he also gains more attackspeed and damage up to a level where maim lasts longer than the time that it would trigger. So you might say nub why don't you grab a basher. Basher has a rather poor build-up and it doesn't grant survivability. SnY does both most of the time. I still hate the entire concept of SnY to be honest but it just fits Him.
So what about EoS? It's the most awsome item sure... but very poor buildup. With a hero with farming issues hmmm... wel lyou'll get my point. If slark hits a enemy 6 times he already gained 24 agi this is like a free eaglehorn worth 3300. It's not that hard to attain the amount of agi stolen to continue with permaMaiMing your enemy. The key is permaMaiming.

But Lets say you're team is facing a Warlock/Omni etc. Yes Diffusal is also a great core item For Slark.

PermaMaiming:
15% for 4s =
60% for 1s =
100% for 0.6s

(1+ias)/BAT =

1+x / 1.7 = 0.6

x= 0.980

so to permamaim you need 98 added AS. You start with 21 from baseagi so add 77 moar for permamaim 31=granted from SnY

Quote:

The domination skill of HotD also doesn't help your efforts a lot and grant you no ganking improvement to speak of.

Failtroll cut this part ganking with creeps is good.

Add on MoM you get the MS to chase up, and Lifesteal but where's the slow/Bash to keep keeping up?

Quote:

Armlet of Mordiggian
If you feel you need extra protection against physical damage, get this.

And the armor, it can be gained against nukers but it's still not that great against disablers.

Armlet Degen = 30, you ult 2/3/4% HP
1500 * 2% = 30 regen from ult
1000 * 3% = 30 regen from ult
750 * 4% = 30 regen from ult

Quote:

Heart of Tarrasque
The first item you should consider. The raw HP it gives you is priceless and the regeneration coupled with your ultimate allows you to quickly get back to battle if wounded.

Yea imba regen...? You got an ulti that outregens this, you need to fight in the heat of battle sure it gives some nifty hp but you need to be able to get hits while Fighting just 900 hp doesn't give this sure it's a lot but take into account it has fucking horrible buildup messer = 3200 that really hard to farm up for Slark. Get Vanguard i still hate the item but Slark needs cheap items which benefit him a lot. For price Effictiveness Vanguard > Heart.

Format:

Stout/Wand/Powertreads at the right or left not in the middle it distracts and annoys

Typo:

The moment you use your of your heals(trust me, you WILL), get your hands on Poor Man's shield and the Magic Wand

General Add colours and shit.

Purge is great for killing a lone hero and countering enemies, but manaburn is a bad orb for slark. Maim is rather good for him imho.

Numbers from Permamaiming need confirmation

~Lycan

Soulfly · 01-27-2010, 08:44 PM

I think you got the diffusal/SnY discussion totally backwards - Diffu is reliable, maim is far from reliable.

iKrivetko · 01-27-2010, 09:31 PM

SnY is core whereas Basher is rejected? I still don't really understand your logic.:\
Anyway, ideas:
-Blink/Force Staff (Pounce positioning)
-Blademail (A good choice for mindgames against aoe bastards. It's fun to see how people throw spells into the cloud and have them reflected) Esp nice when combined with mom.

That's it for now.

JerkCo · 01-28-2010, 01:39 AM

"Magic Wand solves most of your man problems."

GREAT! time to market it to the old couples.

IAmTheSpoon · 01-28-2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulfly

I think you got the diffusal/SnY discussion totally backwards - Diffu is reliable, maim is far from reliable.

I was referring to Maim VS Purge as a ganking slow, not Maim vs Mana burn. Diffusal's mana burn is great coupled with Manta and is by far not worse nor better than Maim.

But the big question which ironically solves the issue of S&Y vs Diffusal is this:
Can he take the Armlet Degen early on? I believe his low strength doesn't support it by then, making S&Y a better strength boost candidate. If yes, then I believe that Armlet -> Diffusal(due to the fact that it needs some HP to be used safely) ->(BKB optional) -> Manta Style would've been a better option. I am really reluctant to use Vanguard->Armlet->Diffusal->BKB->Manta Style because lots of space and money is wasted to neglect the armlet's degen. I'd much rather be for a Linken's Sphere(thus, the Wand would've been ignored) he would make more use of.
I need more opinions on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iKrivetko

SnY is core whereas Basher is rejected? I still don't really understand your logic.:\
Anyway, ideas:
-Blink/Force Staff (Pounce positioning)
-Blademail (A good choice for mindgames against aoe bastards. It's fun to see how people throw spells into the cloud and have them reflected) Esp nice when combined with mom.

That's it for now.

SnY doesn't have a cooldown, whereas a Basher does. If basher had a CD of 1.4 seconds(like the bash duration) and not 2 seconds it would've been worth considering.

Blink/Force Staff - See, that's where SnY comes to action as well. It allows you to easily position pounce thanks to the ms and a possible maim. Otherwise he does not need those items due to his survivability issues. Period. A blademail would've been a good idea if his main issue was physical damage. In fact, he's one of the best anti-dpsers. As for spells, he has BKB. It's not a bad item, but he simply can't support the HP before getting eaten by AoE. I really need to elaborate on his Hit-and-run style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerkCo

"Magic Wand solves most of your man problems."

GREAT! time to market it to the old couples.

Lol

Sorry, It's still in progress >.> Keep on fixing my epic typos xD From what I see from your avatar you don't seem to be having any man problems :P

IAmTheSpoon · 01-28-2010, 10:26 AM

Added some basic usage of skills. Comment on it.

Also, tell me what do you think of Linken's Sphere.

I might consider taking an early Armlet(and thus, also Diffusal+Manta) if (instead of wand) a perservance would be taken for a later Linken's. He needs something before armlet to decrease the effects of the degen of the armlet and that item cannot be vanguard.

Lanther · 01-28-2010, 12:12 PM

In 6.66b the bug of NOT leeching stats from morphed heroes is fixed.So now you can leech TB,DK,Lycan.

IAmTheSpoon · 01-28-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanther

In 6.66b the bug of NOT leeching stats from morphed heroes is fixed.So now you can leech TB,DK,Lycan.

Oh, goodies

Can you rate on the item builds I posted a post ago though? I'm in a real dilemma right now :P

Lanther · 01-28-2010, 03:19 PM

6.66b isn't used on ladder yet.So,if want to play ladder,you still can't leech TB/DK/Lycan.

What people must understand is that everything is situational for Slark.

If you are ganking Lion,Lina,Tinker,heroes with strong nukes,the best item would be Armlet.
If you're ganking Mortred,Terrorblade,hard carries that relies on DPS,then MoM is a good option,because it is cost-effective and it grants MS.
If enemy can be debuffed with Purge,Diffusal is a better option than SnY.Or,if enemy has a lot of disables,it is better getting diffusal because it is cheaper than SnY and you'll need BKB.
If you have Axe on your team,then Mjollnir is a good choice of luxury.

Even Essence Shift can be maxed before Pounce.If your team relies much on team battles and enemies don't have a lot of AoE,then it would be better getting more levels of ES,as it will be easy to land a Pounce and you'll need to leech stats.

IAmTheSpoon · 01-28-2010, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanther

6.66b isn't used on ladder yet.So,if want to play ladder,you still can't leech TB/DK/Lycan.

What people must understand is that everything is situational for Slark.

If you are ganking Lion,Lina,Tinker,heroes with strong nukes,the best item would be Armlet.
If you're ganking Mortred,Terrorblade,hard carries that relies on DPS,then MoM is a good option,because it is cost-effective and it grants MS.
If enemy can be debuffed with Purge,Diffusal is a better option than SnY.Or,if enemy has a lot of disables,it is better getting diffusal because it is cheaper than SnY and you'll need BKB.
If you have Axe on your team,then Mjollnir is a good choice of luxury.

Even Essence Shift can be maxed before Pounce.If your team relies much on team battles and enemies don't have a lot of AoE,then it would be better getting more levels of ES,as it will be easy to land a Pounce and you'll need to leech stats.

Imo, using Slark against nuke lineups is nonsense in itself. At least for now.
You take enough agility from those dps carries to be efficient - a MoM is not required.
Who cares if you can Purge your enemy if you can't get away and walk back in, something Slark relies upon(!) because of his ultimate. It takes time for people to realize how much they should abuse the ultimate to survive and gank. I'll add that bit about Mjollnir, thanks.
I think I'll make a split guide or a mini-guide for competetive games for the increased Essence Shift, Wraiths, BKB and stuff like that.

I decided I'll stick with S&Y. Diffusal is good but S&Y is just better in terms of improving your offensive and defensive potential simultaneously, while the Diffusal grants no survivability. Only armlet fits to fill for the defense, but relying upon it early-on for survival is suicide because of the low base health.

Anyone has hold of Blaow's Juking map or any other full map with shown juking spots? Thanks.

GoD_Tyr · 01-29-2010, 10:22 AM

Html Color Codes

Pick the color code you wish, and change your color to something like this for example.

Razorya · 01-29-2010, 10:53 AM

Okay, I'm no pro on item/skill builds so I'm not going into that; I find you explained your skill build pretty well, it's similar to the skill build I would instinctively go for. Item build is disputable, but then again everyone has their own personal preferences. Maybe it's an idea for the (far) future to add replays in which there are Slarks with different orbs (judging on what other people have commented so far, apparently more core orbs than SnY are viable)

As to the general layout of the guide.. I don't have to explain to you that I like that it's purple. Anyway, for some clarification and preventing it becoming tl;dr material (not implying it is, to me it isn't, but I could understand that some people may think it is) maybe a layout like this would work, adding a lighter hue and bolding really important points.

Quote:

Usage of Dark Pact

Looks might be deceving. This may look like a weak AoE tool but in fact its uses are much useful than they may seem initially.
a) As a farming/pushing tool. Once it hits level 4 feel free to use it to push or to farm in both jungle and the lane. Be aware of enemies that might abuse the loss of HP and gank you though. Safest way to use it is to use it as far away from your enemies as possible when farming.
b) As a ganking tool. Your early-mid damage isn't too shining so this helps you net a kill or two.
c) As a defense tool. WHAT? Yes. After two seconds, you lose most of the most annoying debuffs in the game. The key is to predict when some of them will be cast on you 2 seconds later. Practice makes perfect. Here's a list of the debuffs:

Note that using Dark Pact you can remove annoying spells like Rhasta's Shackles, Venomancer's Poison Nova, Slithice's Ensnare, Rooftrellen's Overgrowth or even Dust of Appearance, Amplify damage and Bane's Fiend's Grip. Most specifically, STUNS! ABUSE IT! I cannot stress this enough.
Tip 1 - When using this skill with the ultimate, use Dark Pact the moment you get in contact with your enemy. That's only if you can face him 1vs1. In all other cases, use Dark pact right before it ends. A natural instinct of your enemy is to stun/disable Slark the moment he shows up again. Dark Pact triggers and the disables/stuns are off, allowing you to escape or continue your pursuit.
Tip 2 - Use mindgames in pubs. An early Dark Pact can make you look the one dying while a moment later the tides might turn around.

raging at colors but whatever
I've seen people coloring the spells in the skillbuild differently, that's also pretty easy on the eyes and gives a quicker overview of what to get when.
In the item section, I would bold the item names (I know you got the pictures there, but it just emphasizes that you are talking about the specific use of a certain item).
Also I prefer

Quote:

Vanguard

over

Quote:

Vanguard

so if you ever have nothing to do at all and are like "ah well since I'm a nolifer I could go and change all those little not so very necessary things" =D
Adding screenshots is always a plus, I realize this is a draft but just saying

.

I'd like to see a "how to counter(pick)" Slark, I know it's generally obvious nukers/disablers but still, I get owned by that dude so badly it's not funny anymore

edit: now it's quotable (so stealable)

01-27-2010, 05:49 PM	#2
Wendek Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: France Posts: 684	Re: Aka the King of Glass Cannons Mjollnir gives a shitload of attackspeed, the static charge is useful not only for you but for your team : think about Axe blinking in and calling with Static Charge on him. Awesome amount of damage dealt in a few seconds, especially since Helixes lose a lot of power late-game due to being physical damage. S&Y isn't good imo, although it's better on Slark than on most heroes. Strentgh is useful indeed, but Power Treads and a few Wraiths/Bracers can do it too, maim is useless (3.5 seconds of pseudo-ensnare with Pounce and 5.5 (4.8 actually due to the delay) more where you run at an absurd speed), and the attackspeed is much lower than the one of Mjollnir or other items. If you want moar movespeed (why would you? I don't know), get a single Yasha that you can later turn into a Manta (images can be terribly powerful with all the stolen stats, although they would die easily to aoe nukes unless you have a Heart) I don't think you tried the Mjollnir build actually, S&Y is an item that looks good for many heroes on paper but is outshined by others when actually playing. Its only real advantage is that it comes with cheap parts (which is why I used to get it on Strygwyr for instance, but that was in 6.59 before Quelling Blade and such), hence it can be considered as an alternative if you're getting owned and can't afford to save those 1610 gold for a Hammer. (or if you're bad at farming, or drunk or whatever^^) Overall seems like good guide, or well, a good beginning. Needs more explanations on the use of Dark Pact and Pounce imo, but it's in draft so it's obviously not finished^^

01-27-2010, 06:46 PM	#4
dagoncrowgg Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: lexington MA Posts: 374	Re: Aka the King of Glass Cannons I disagree with the S&Y core unless you are in a pub game. Armlet is much better on him, as it grants much more survivability than s&y. Also, the maim percent chance on S&Y is only 15%, meaning that main will be far from permanent.

01-27-2010, 06:51 PM	#5
Kild Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 253	Re: Aka the King of Glass Cannons Why level dark pact past level 1? You complain about his squishyness then you use a nuke that hurts himself.

01-27-2010, 07:38 PM	#7
iKrivetko Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 2,352 Blog Entries: 5	Re: The King of Glass Cannons You do however admit that the statement was a fail, don't you?

01-27-2010, 08:44 PM	#10
Soulfly Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,208	Re: The King of Glass Cannons I think you got the diffusal/SnY discussion totally backwards - Diffu is reliable, maim is far from reliable.

01-27-2010, 09:31 PM	#11
iKrivetko Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 2,352 Blog Entries: 5	Re: The King of Glass Cannons SnY is core whereas Basher is rejected? I still don't really understand your logic.:\ Anyway, ideas: -Blink/Force Staff (Pounce positioning) -Blademail (A good choice for mindgames against aoe bastards. It's fun to see how people throw spells into the cloud and have them reflected) Esp nice when combined with mom. That's it for now.

Last edited by iKrivetko; 01-27-2010 at 09:33 PM.

01-28-2010, 01:39 AM	#12
JerkCo Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: DotA2Beta Posts: 1,578	Re: The King of Glass Cannons "Magic Wand solves most of your man problems." GREAT! time to market it to the old couples. __________________ Just a bit evil

01-28-2010, 10:26 AM	#14
IAmTheSpoon Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bydgoszcz, Poland Posts: 1,113	Re: The King of Glass Cannons Added some basic usage of skills. Comment on it. Also, tell me what do you think of Linken's Sphere. I might consider taking an early Armlet(and thus, also Diffusal+Manta) if (instead of wand) a perservance would be taken for a later Linken's. He needs something before armlet to decrease the effects of the degen of the armlet and that item cannot be vanguard. __________________ [B] [B]My Slark Guide

01-28-2010, 12:12 PM	#15
Lanther Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,247	Re: The King of Glass Cannons In 6.66b the bug of NOT leeching stats from morphed heroes is fixed.So now you can leech TB,DK,Lycan.

01-28-2010, 03:19 PM	#17
Lanther Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,247	Re: The King of Glass Cannons 6.66b isn't used on ladder yet.So,if want to play ladder,you still can't leech TB/DK/Lycan. What people must understand is that everything is situational for Slark. If you are ganking Lion,Lina,Tinker,heroes with strong nukes,the best item would be Armlet. If you're ganking Mortred,Terrorblade,hard carries that relies on DPS,then MoM is a good option,because it is cost-effective and it grants MS. If enemy can be debuffed with Purge,Diffusal is a better option than SnY.Or,if enemy has a lot of disables,it is better getting diffusal because it is cheaper than SnY and you'll need BKB. If you have Axe on your team,then Mjollnir is a good choice of luxury. Even Essence Shift can be maxed before Pounce.If your team relies much on team battles and enemies don't have a lot of AoE,then it would be better getting more levels of ES,as it will be easy to land a Pounce and you'll need to leech stats.

Last edited by Lanther; 01-28-2010 at 03:21 PM.

01-29-2010, 10:22 AM	#19
GoD_Tyr Forum Staff Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Serbia Posts: 4,101	Re: The King of Glass Cannons Html Color Codes Pick the color code you wish, and change your color to something like this for example.