(REPLACE) Flamebreak -> Echolocate

[green.bear]

Idea first, reasoning second.

Echolocate-
The troll batrider's mount sends out sonar to detect nearby enemies. Enemies too close to the batrider will take minor damage (unless they are napalmed).

Instant cast, PINGS enemy heroes on the minimap in an 800+(level of echolocate x 800) radius, deals 10 damage to enemies within 150 aoe, another 10 damage to enemies with 400 aoe, and another 10 damage to enemies within 700 aoe. This damage is buffed by napalm (that is why the numbers are so so low, it can get crazy with napalm, this skill might actually need to be nerfed down to two damage instances). 20 second cd, 100 mana cost (kind've generic, testing would find out what they really need).

If it were nerfed I'd say one damage instance at 250 range and one at 600. Looking at napalm damage again this might be a safer option, though only playtesting could really tell. (it would be really weak if they are low napalm count, but since napalm stacks so high it gets sticky (get it? sticky?)).

Reason: A) Theme. So far the only thing he can do that is anything batlike is fly, and they can use a different model for that. More bat plz.
B) Flamebreak seems so random. Flamebreak has huge range, but firefly and lasso require you to be close. Firefly lets you get close, allowing for a powerful echolocate if they are napalmed.
C) It is way more fun and gives bat some utility and purpose. Now he can protect a carry by echolocating if someone is mia, echolocate to determine whether a dust would vis an invis (pings invis heroes), echolocate for a decent aoe if they are napalmed,
D) Gives some options while leveling. Do you train firefly napalm still for early game or do you want to play it safe and get one or two levels of echolocate? This would depend on your role in the game, which there are more possibilities for thanks to echolocate (babysit now).
E) Opens up flamebreak for a new hero that can make better use of it.

Other uses for echolocate include checking roshan from a distance, running near their woods and using a maxed echolocate to check and see how many people are in there (enemies can't tell they got echolocated) and where. Sets you up for easy ganks and helps prevent being ganked with wise use. Helps you determine where the enemy is going to defend or initiate. I think it just sounds like way more fun.

What do you guys think? By the way, it is really easy to code. I made it in basic world editor in a couple minutes, and with icefrog behind it I think it could get really neat. I think with a good player it might be super powerful, but I don't think we should worry about number yet, and just see how people like the idea.

[Bloodmage]

This idea looks interesting, I like the "bat" theme behind it. I think it would work well, the only thing is that this would take away his only nuke, but would make him much more interesting to play.

[green.bear]

It does remove his nuke, but you can miss with flamebreak, and with napalm echolocation would be capable of dealing some serious damage.
Thanks for the comment.

(aka, bippity boppity bump)

[Cáno]

Reason: A) Theme. So far the only thing he can do that is anything batlike is fly, and they can use a different model for that. More bat plz.

Indeed. I was so disappointed when Batrider was introduced as he didn't use bat theme's full potential.

T-Up!

[drogirant]

Originally Posted by Bloodmage

This idea looks interesting, I like the "bat" theme behind it. I think it would work well, the only thing is that this would take away his only nuke, but would make him much more interesting to play.

This, and T-up

[green.bear]

If only there was some way to lure Icefrog in here now... Not many suggestions get into the game and most aren't even worth reading, so I doubt he browses this area a whole lot... Hmm.

Thanks for the comments.

(aka, bippity boppity bump)

[kitchen]

How exactly does a Bat's screech ignite napalm? Seems rather out of theme to me.

[karmisael]

His Napal contains chemicals that react to only one kind of frecuency: his Bat :P

That's why it works xD

EDIT: T-UP

[Linism]

Like the idea, but the range may be a bit too much but I won't complain about numbers in a suggestion thread.

I was kind of worried about one thing, Sticky Napalm only triggers above a certain damage threshold (ie - Radiance won't trigger SN because its damage is lower than said threshold which was 33 for Heroes and 40 for creeps iirc), however since Cano has approved this, I may be wrong, or maybe you can trigger the SN's effect... but you might wanna double check with Mechanics just in case.

edit: lol, forgot to mention, T-Up.

[green.bear]

Yeah the whole ignition is a tiny stretch, but since shiva "ignites" it, I think we can make something up (see the guy who said the bat's sonar can do it- I like that). I'm sure you can trigger it too. I thought radiance was just exempt from the list, but if it is a threshold I would imagine you could figure out how many napalms it had and do it independently. I don't think coding is a problem for Icefrog on this.

The echolocation is too good thematically for a bat character to pass up, and I really like the napalm damage interaction, even if it does take some imagination. Anyway, keep it rolling. Let's keep it as the first suggestion thread until Icefrog sees it so I can brag about having a skill in dota.

[kitchen]

We can just put in on a Gargoyle hero anyway (if Familiars' models are changed). No need to remove an awesome spell that fits great on its hero.

[Zangetsu2201]

This is a very good idea, that would certainly fit the bat theme and is also unique and quite balanced (there is no need to worry about the damage , because Flamebreak's was a lot higher). It's a gank-breaking skill that would make Batrider a valuable pusher (echolocate when you think the enemies are ganking you, then TP). It is way better, in concept, than his current long-distance nuke, which sucks compared to Puck's, Mirana's and Alleria's because it can only kill a fleeing hero or disperse the enemies that are gruped together (which makes Bat not a reliable ally to heroes like SF, Enigma, Lich etc.). I would like to see this skill in DotA, so T-up and full support.

[Linism]

Originally Posted by green.bear

Yeah the whole ignition is a tiny stretch, but since shiva "ignites" it, I think we can make something up (see the guy who said the bat's sonar can do it- I like that). I'm sure you can trigger it too. I thought radiance was just exempt from the list, but if it is a threshold I would imagine you could figure out how many napalms it had and do it independently. I don't think coding is a problem for Icefrog on this.

The echolocation is too good thematically for a bat character to pass up, and I really like the napalm damage interaction, even if it does take some imagination. Anyway, keep it rolling. Let's keep it as the first suggestion thread until Icefrog sees it so I can brag about having a skill in dota.

Maybe his Echolocation generates heat at close range because the sound is super high frequency (or some other quasi-scientific-hallybaloo). But it's not too important, especially when AA's Chilling Touch, a decisively Icy attack, can trigger Sticky Napalm as well.

[g4ry_o4k]

I think this is the only suggestion I've heard all day that I actually liked.

T-Up

[kornuletz]

Maybe I misunderstood, but in case this spell will ping on the minimap with each cast, for both you and your allies, this might get really annoying fast.

[Each time you use this spell allies on the whole map get multiple pings and are like WTFMATE?]

Other then that, good idea. Maybe use "vision" of said heroes, like BS's bloodthirst, but for just a short while..

[zaphodbrx99]

one of the best suggestions I've seen in a while, T up.

[green.bear]

It will ping for allies, but it shouldn't be confusing/annoying because A) it is a hero move, you aren't confused by an arrow flying out of the blue and stunning you, are you? B) it won't be the color of any hero pings, so you shouldn't think that someone is pinging multiple places instantly somehow C) knowing where enemies are isn't annoying.

To the guy that said flamebreak did way more damage, right you are...typically. The -potential- of this move is possibly op. Now, getting 10 sticky napalms on someone should mean they are dead anyway, which may be the saving factor here. Because with 3 damage instances it would deal 780 damage to heroes within 150ish aoe. Now that is if all the heroes have 10 napalms and you are extremely close and somehow undisabled. Typically heroes are dead in that case anyway though, especially when you look at firefly, which has the potential to do 80+250/tick. Anyway, that part is subject to testing changes as I mentioned.

Thanks for the support.

[ZΣD]

Realy cool idea,I think you need to send this idea in IceFrog mail,and attach link to this topic
T-up

[Mystique-]

This is an exceptionally ingenious idea: meshes and fits with the theme of a Bat perfectly. Echolocating is a much more useful utility

If possible, can you make a test map to show case the usefulness of echolocation?

[Lord_Talron]

hell ya!