[STR-Neutral] Goliath the Guardian Golem

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

Hm, a conflicting thought just came up. I'll just speak my thoughts! Tell me what you think:

In most(and by most, i mean a LOT) battles, spells are the main source of damage. Do you think that spells being the primary damage source significantly cripples the defensive power of Sanctuary Stone? With all these spells flying around, and not much physical damage being dealt, will the stone just stand like a useless spire?

That being said, I still think that Stone is fine as it is. An ultimate should not provide universal benefits that have no weaknesses at all; all ultimates should only be effective in certain situations[ ex: ES's ult is only effective with lots of units around]. Stone is effective most when battles revolve around dishing out physical damage; it also has a really handy bonus that effectively purges all debuffs. However, it's weakness is that it can't block spell damage as well: and spell damage is, like I said before, the primary output of damage in team-mates. That way, its balanced. And we all know everybody likes balanced spells

So that's why I think Sanctuary Stone should stay as only blocking physical damage: it may not be effective in all teambattles this way, but its situational. In the situations that Stone is helpful - it is REALLY useful: lots of damage block followed by a wave that purges debuffs.

What do you think?

Good points. I think the fact that the stone only defends physical damage would allow allies to focus on spell-resistance builds with massing Hoods or something.

Originally Posted by Leak-

That is an ELEGANT spell. Matches with Goliath's theme better in my opinion; and is still unique .

So essentially:
Defender aura: provides bonus armor and regen [fits defense well]
Avenger aura: provides bonus movement speed and damage [fits vengeance well]
There should be no problem in Defender/Avenger aura stacking with other auras right? Like armor,damage auras etc

I think the health requirement for this to actviate defender's aura should be lowered though; maybe to 30% Even 20% maybe. It makes sense for such auras to only activate in dire situations - a lot heroes[low hp intel/agi heroes] don't have much health, and they easily go below 40% HP. Reckless granting so many bonuses[ that become exponentially more powerful when stacked] may generate many balance issues. But that's just what I think..

I think 30% or less would be way too low.

Originally Posted by Ali Radicali

I think the armor on the new defender aura is too high. Remember, in any given battle you'll probably have multiple instances of the aura. IMO 0.5/1/1.5/2 armor per instance is sufficient. If your whole team is down to 40% that still translates to +10 armor to the team. That's twice as much as Assault o.O. By contrast, the avenger aura seems a bit too weak, considering it only activates on a hero's death. Lastly, it might be best if each allied death placed an avenger buff rather than an aura, since it would allow Guardian to die first and still grant his allies a benefit for it. If Avenger works with an Aura, killing Guardian first would mean Avenger would do nothing.

Hmm, I will consider it.

Originally Posted by 1bAt0

My only problem here is that this hero relies too much on team battles that it becomes more and more useless with less players involved. His skill set's usefulness is at optimal capacity when in a 5v5 team battle and relies too much on conditions (referring to Bodyguard) that makes (calculated) risks on your ally's part since it requires either <40% ally HP or they are dying near Goliath. But on the upside, Bodyguard favors finishing the enemy off when it can't be done by dead allies otherwise.

The ultimate is good but broken. Since it only works on allies, it's optimal capacity works only when 1 allied hero gets to benefit from it which is not good for Bodyguard (theoretically speaking of course). I would suggest though to shorten its duration time to maybe 5/7/9 seconds or less (since team clashes seldom ends for more than 10 seconds or so, let alone 20 seconds) while increasing the stone's HP and/or damage absorption aura.

Lastly, I wont gonna consider him as a tank because Bodyguard relies much on certain conditions and he probably not gonna last long anyway since 3 (1 being risky--Bodyguard) of his spells don't benefit much of his tanking capabilities. But he IS a good Initiator and a supporter at best.

My 2 cents.

Every hero needs weaknesses.

[BiLLiO333]

Love the idea, very well made suited for a nonexistant role. This would rock the metagame immensely if implemented, after proper number crunches of course.

[NHP54]

I changed Bodyguard significantly. Please provide feedback on the other numbers as well.

[1bAt0]

I would prefer making Bodyguard his ultimate and swap it with the current one (Stone). Bodyguard's current state is powerful but not imba to make it as his ulti (number tweakings will do the trick) while Sanctuary Stone needs to be nerfed of course---I could imagine the stone being used not only in team clashes but also when pushing towers, if you know what I mean.

EDIT: That is if you tweak the stone to also affect allied unit (not just heroes).

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by 1bAt0

I would prefer making Bodyguard his ultimate and swap it with the current one (Stone). Bodyguard's current state is powerful but not imba to make it as his ulti (number tweakings will do the trick) while Sanctuary Stone needs to be nerfed of course---I could imagine the stone being used not only in team clashes but also when pushing towers, if you know what I mean.

EDIT: That is if you tweak the stone to also affect allied unit (not just heroes).

I originally had the stone has its ultimate. It was going to be the opposite of Dirge's Tombstone, but I felt that design would be fine. Though physical damage is not as important compared to spell damage, minimizing a still essential damage source is ultimate worthy by itself.

[Mystique-]

I like this bodyguard aura better - especially since it makes more sense thematically, which I believe is really important!

• defender - armor and regen
• avenger - high damage and speedy

And numbers and stats can be tweaked through experimentation, so I wouldn't be too worried about those. If its obviously overpowered, it can be easily changed.

Some things I noticed for Bodyguard[ for numerical consistency ] :
Should they be....

• At level 3: +2 Armor and +4 HP Regen per Defender buff?
• At level 4: +20 Movement Speed and +30 Damage per Avenger buff?

HERO:
I just realized that huskar is like the IDEAL ally for goliath. talk about synergy: he'll activate at least one bodyguard aura every battle.

ITEMS:

• What's your opinion on shivas for this guy? Armor and Intel is great!
• Potential scepter upgrade? I know this may needlessly complicate the hero, but since this hero has a pretty low intelligence(stat-wise ) with easily conceivable improvements to the ultimate, a viable scepter would make a great investment.

Miscellaneous note: i know i brought up this point earlier, but i just had an idea that could help clearly differentiate Goliath the Guardian Golem with the super-creep Siege Golem. Why not use the original Siege golem model? It's kind of confusing since the super-creep siege golem uses the war-golem model, but that leaves the big original siege golem model unused. The original siege golem model is BIG! (since you said goliath could be swapped to another model )

Size and color can be changed, but this is the general visual comparison:

• Original unused Siege Golem model on Left.
• War Golem model(used by Siege Golem super-creep) on Right.

[Ali Radicali]

Other than some numerical tweaks, I think the hero is mostly fine. Some suggestions:

- Avenger Buff should last a bit shorter IMO. Bear in mind that a typical teambattle doesn't last very long, 15 seconds at most. A stronger buff with a lower duration would be better IMO. Other than that the skill is fine. While it isn't always usable (pretty useless during the laning phase and you can't control when it "works" because you rely on wounded/dead allies), when the skill does kick in, it rapes face.

Sanctuary Stone's effects don't warrant a 150 second cooldown. Bear in mind that it's a purely defensive move that is in many ways weaker than, say, Song of the Siren or Guardian Angel. IMO, ~90 seconds cooldown (or maybe a scaling 150/120/90) is fine.

Other than that, we must agree to disagree on whether or not Lifeline should work on Goliath :/

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by Leak-

I like this bodyguard aura better - especially since it makes more sense thematically, which I believe is really important!

• defender - armor and regen
• avenger - high damage and speedy

And numbers and stats can be tweaked through experimentation, so I wouldn't be too worried about those. If its obviously overpowered, it can be easily changed.

Some things I noticed for Bodyguard[ for numerical consistency ] :
Should they be....

• At level 3: +2 Armor and +4 HP Regen per Defender buff?
• At level 4: +20 Movement Speed and +30 Damage per Avenger buff?

HERO:
I just realized that huskar is like the IDEAL ally for goliath. talk about synergy: he'll activate at least one bodyguard aura every battle.

ITEMS:

• What's your opinion on shivas for this guy? Armor and Intel is great!
• Potential scepter upgrade? I know this may needlessly complicate the hero, but since this hero has a pretty low intelligence(stat-wise ) with easily conceivable improvements to the ultimate, a viable scepter would make a great investment.

Miscellaneous note: i know i brought up this point earlier, but i just had an idea that could help clearly differentiate Goliath the Guardian Golem with the super-creep Siege Golem. Why not use the original Siege golem model? It's kind of confusing since the super-creep siege golem uses the war-golem model, but that leaves the big original siege golem model unused. The original siege golem model is BIG! (since you said goliath could be swapped to another model )

Size and color can be changed, but this is the general visual comparison:

• Original unused Siege Golem model on Left.
• War Golem model(used by Siege Golem super-creep) on Right.

- Ya, Huskar and Goliath would gel well together.
- Shiva's would be a great option because it provides a little bit of everything that Goliath needs to tank with in battles.
- I am considering the Aghanim's Scepter option.
- The model change shouldn't be a big deal because the bigger golem should be the super creep in the first place.

Originally Posted by Ali Radicali

Other than some numerical tweaks, I think the hero is mostly fine. Some suggestions:

- Avenger Buff should last a bit shorter IMO. Bear in mind that a typical teambattle doesn't last very long, 15 seconds at most. A stronger buff with a lower duration would be better IMO. Other than that the skill is fine. While it isn't always usable (pretty useless during the laning phase and you can't control when it "works" because you rely on wounded/dead allies), when the skill does kick in, it rapes face.

Sanctuary Stone's effects don't warrant a 150 second cooldown. Bear in mind that it's a purely defensive move that is in many ways weaker than, say, Song of the Siren or Guardian Angel. IMO, ~90 seconds cooldown (or maybe a scaling 150/120/90) is fine.

Other than that, we must agree to disagree on whether or not Lifeline should work on Goliath :/

- OK, changed.
- Hmm, good point. Changed.
- For now, I will hold my ground and keep Lifeline for ally heroes only.

[FtnRsngn19]

extremely effective hero during ganks and GB's
balanced and has no flaws
awesome idea,

[Barcalord]

I really really like the idea of the hero, the concept is flawless, but i fear the impact such a hero would have on the game. You know ricing and tanking ...
Some tweaks on the numbers are needed though for example the buff duration of the second spell matches the cooldown doesnt it? Its late though have to read everything more carefully

[Barcalord]

I just read it again (it was the lifetime buff) and my question is does it fade after 1 attack (i hope so but it isnt fully clear to me).
If yes its fine, if not its severely oerpowered.

[Mystique-]

Originally Posted by Barcalord

I just read it again (it was the lifetime buff) and my question is does it fade after 1 attack (i hope so but it isnt fully clear to me).
If yes its fine, if not its severely oerpowered.

It fades away after 1 fatal blow attack. Otherwise, if the blow is not fatal, it does not fade. Buff lasts 20 seconds, after first being cast on target, if it does not fade.

[NHP54]

Honestly, how do people feel about Lifeline working on allies only? I just want to have at least 50% of the skills designed to help just allies to go with the theme.

[BiLLiO333]

love the aura change wanted that originally, questionable about the numbers avenger, +40 dmg PER BUFF is pretty hectic... and keep lifeline as allies only, it stays with the whole package. point is to play defensive support specializing in TEAM battles, not use him as a carry abusing defender/avenger then tossing an untouchable skill on yourself.

scenario - all 4 allies die. at that point you get 160 dmg, 10 armor and 20 regen. 160atkspd and 80ms. so with heart regen, dk armor, double dmg, battle trance, as well as BoT, you wanna add another skill on top of this guy? oh since hes already so tank, lets make it that whenever someone atks him they cant atk for another 2s as well as take dmg.

he can already run away and tank or chase down and kill without the self cast lifeline.
keep it allies only.

ps - if lifeline is self targetable, then it's no longer a lifeline... it's just disabling blademail. lifeline = link to aid another allies survival like that spirit link from Melee Orcs.

[Mystique-]

Originally Posted by BiLLiO333

love the aura change wanted that originally, questionable about the numbers avenger, +40 dmg PER BUFF is pretty hectic... and keep lifeline as allies only, it stays with the whole package. point is to play defensive support specializing in TEAM battles, not use him as a carry abusing defender/avenger then tossing an untouchable skill on yourself.

scenario - all 4 allies die. at that point you get 160 dmg, 10 armor and 20 regen. 160atkspd and 80ms. so with heart regen, dk armor, double dmg, battle trance, as well as BoT, you wanna add another skill on top of this guy? oh since hes already so tank, lets make it that whenever someone atks him they cant atk for another 2s as well as take dmg.

he can already run away and tank or chase down and kill without the self cast lifeline.
keep it allies only.

ps - if lifeline is self targetable, then it's no longer a lifeline... it's just disabling blademail. lifeline = link to aid another allies survival like that spirit link from Melee Orcs.

Yeah, I completely to agree with BiLLiO333 on this point - keep lifeline exclusive to allies. Makes sense thematically and keeps it balanced as well.

[NHP54]

Everyone, please consider that there aren't really that many defensive spells in DotA compared to offensive ones. Goliath embodies defense and would make an impact in the metagame. The tanking role has always been a mixed bag in DotA. Unless a tank creates enough of an impact to draw focus fire, it is not going to happen naturally. On the other hand, teams will have every reason to attack Goliath. The bonuses from Bodyguard alone place a bull's-eye on Goliath, but that's what a tank hero wants in the first place.

[dixing]

Alright, I warned you about my views of support heroes but here goes -

First skill is pretty nice, very different from the rest of the defense-themed skills, which makes me wonder what is its purpose? theres no other skills in this hero that abuse that armor reduction, kind of strange.

Second skill is also cool, altough I wonder if not overpowered, maybe I understood it a bit incorrectly but does it give back 100 damage and stop attacks each time it has been hit by the same hero? for 20 seconds? if so then it seems too strong to me.

Third skill is a bit inconsistent with the rest of the skills, the idea is good, but you have a skill that prevent heroes from dying and a skill that benefits from their deaths, its a bit awkward, same goes for the relation with the ultimate and the defender buffs.

Ultimate - nice idea, nothing big to add here.

Overall I would say I think that while dota does need the support role to be more emphasized at times, it shouldent cost you a boring game, and IMHO this hero might be a bit too boring to play :O (but like I told you before I am not a good judge of support heroes).

So there goes my review hope it wasnt too harsh, and btw I would love if you could review my hero Anakaris (with the dragon model), he was the one I originally ment to get a review for, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[HeartAdriel]

How would he become a technical tank of 2 of his skills are not applicable to him? I guess the ulti must have a minor effect on your hero, or maybe gain full protection from it.

[Ali Radicali]

Originally Posted by HeartAdriel

How would he become a technical tank of 2 of his skills are not applicable to him? I guess the ulti must have a minor effect on your hero, or maybe gain full protection from it.

Because he has decent STR gain and most importantly, his enemies have a good reason to focus him. To be a good tank, it's far more important to have a skill that causes you to draw fire than it is to have >9000 EHP boosts.
Tankiness can be bought rather easily, with cheap items like Vanguard, PMS Hood and RoB.

Also, your fontsize and colour are annoying as hell.

[NHP54]

Originally Posted by dixing

Alright, I warned you about my views of support heroes but here goes -

First skill is pretty nice, very different from the rest of the defense-themed skills, which makes me wonder what is its purpose? theres no other skills in this hero that abuse that armor reduction, kind of strange.

Second skill is also cool, altough I wonder if not overpowered, maybe I understood it a bit incorrectly but does it give back 100 damage and stop attacks each time it has been hit by the same hero? for 20 seconds? if so then it seems too strong to me.

Third skill is a bit inconsistent with the rest of the skills, the idea is good, but you have a skill that prevent heroes from dying and a skill that benefits from their deaths, its a bit awkward, same goes for the relation with the ultimate and the defender buffs.

Ultimate - nice idea, nothing big to add here.

Overall I would say I think that while dota does need the support role to be more emphasized at times, it shouldent cost you a boring game, and IMHO this hero might be a bit too boring to play :O (but like I told you before I am not a good judge of support heroes).

So there goes my review hope it wasnt too harsh, and btw I would love if you could review my hero Anakaris (with the dragon model), he was the one I originally ment to get a review for, sorry for the misunderstanding.

- Rampart Rush allows Goliath to charge in and out of situations to assist, clean up or to run away if needed. The reduced armor has synergy with Lifeline's physical damage effect as well as the Avenger buff from Bodyguard. Not only that, all heroes use their physical attack, so any kind of reduced armor helps out your team's physical DPS.
- Lifeline's counter effect is Invoker's Deafening Blast effect without the push. I think it is fair in the sense that the theme of this hero revolves around physical damage, so spell damage, which the majority of damage in the game comes from after all, becomes the other main option to deal with this move.
- It is simple actually. Bodyguard's Defender helps to keep ally heroes alive, while the Avenger buff creates the opposite effect on purpose. Basically, it reinforces Goliath's tank role because the other team would want to aim for it first, otherwise they will have to deal with crazy bonuses. It creates an ultimatum - kill Goliath first or deal with empowered enemies for not taking out Goliath from the start.
- Meh, I realize that this hero is not appealing for every type of DotA player, which was what I originally intended for in the first place. Like I said at the start of this suggestion, the support roles in DotA are taken for granted, many people don't realize or appreciate good support and the role is simply overshadowed by the carry and ganking roles.

Nevertheless, I want this hero to be geared toward the certain kind of players who take pride in being the tank or support. It requires a certain mindset, an unselfish way of thinking, to be willing to take one for the team. I limited the spells to allies only to force the support role out of Goliath. This hero simply rewards the players who want to help out their team because they are not in it for themselves.

Originally Posted by HeartAdriel

How would he become a technical tank of 2 of his skills are not applicable to him? I guess the ulti must have a minor effect on your hero, or maybe gain full protection from it.

Ali Radicali is correct about the tank role. A lot of people wrongly associate the role with just stacking lots and lots of HP and armor, but this is not the case. Tanks must place a bull's-eye on themselves to draw the damage, otherwise they will just be ignored.