[Remake] Macropyre

[megboklek]

As I promised, I have another proposition, this time for THD's ultimate skill.

Current Macropyre has a devastating damage, but in the other hand it's slow, has a considerable casting time, its AoE is shaped so units easily avoid it if here's no interaction, meaning it requires a combo. More precisely, without some kind of combo it's as good as useless. Therefore sometimes the word situational is also appropriate to describe it.

Old skill can be found here:
Twin Head Dragon - DotA Hero Details

New skill is the following:

Macropyre



* Ability Type: Active
* Targeting Type: Point
* Ability Hotkey: R

Jakiro unleashes a flame from his heart to set the lands on fire. Every enemy unit in the area suffers DPS.

Level	Manacost	Cooldown	AoE	Duration	Targets	Effect
1	220	80	500	6	Enemy Unit	DPS for 5 seconds
2	330	80	550	8	Enemy Unit	DPS for 5 seconds
3	440	80	600	10	Enemy Unit	DPS for 5 seconds

So every single second another buff is applied. So if you leave the area while duration still lasts, you will still have the last buff (or last few buffs) that's been on you.
Scaling is based on the fact that a fire flares up, reaches its peak then burns out. (And a pyre has nothing to do with explosion-like stuff like current.) Also, it doesn't have to deal the greatest damage at the end of the spell.

Following table shows how DPS is dealt in time (every second):

1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	Total
15	30	45	30	15	1					680
15	30	45	60	45	30	15	1			1205
15	30	45	60	75	60	45	30	15	1	1880

Notes:
• Has the same casting time as current ultimate.
• AoE is a circular area in front of Jakiro.


As the game progresses, disables' role increases, making this ultimate more devastating.
Note that 10 seconds is a hell lot of time, noone will stay there from free will, and once cast, it's not movable like Sand King's Epicenter (which also deals damage in a whole different way). Thus it's very unlikely that the whole damage will be dealt, keeping enemies there is a goal the team will try to achieve. Timing is also a key factor, so this spell won't be a free bbqpwn nuke.

Skill synergy:
Obviously with all of them.
I'd like to mention sweepberry's Ice Path remake. I really like that concept and would work with this perfectly. It's been getting positive responses and I can understand why.
I also have an Aghanim's Scepter update in mind, that uses both skills.


Hero synergy:
Void, Rooftrellen, Dark Seer, Nevermore, Magnus, TC, Medusa, Pit Lord, Witch Doctor etc.

Item synergy:
Shiva's Guard, Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse, Force Staff, Eye of Skadi
(Even comboing with BKB, Kelen's Dagger)

Can be countered with Khadgar's Pipe of Insight.


Pros:
• It's a great ultimate.
Cons:
• Hell lot of buffs indicated in status bar. But I'm sure this can be worked out.

[Lord_Talron]

so let me get this straight, you have proposed that, now, when you leave the aoe you will suffer 5 seconds of the effect? waiting response

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Lord_Talron

so let me get this straight, you have proposed that, now, when you leave the aoe you will suffer 5 seconds of the effect? waiting response

A buff will placed upon enemy units in every second they're in the AoE.
1st sec: 15 dps for 5 sec
2nd sec: 30 dps for 5 sec
3rd sec: 45 dps for 5 sec
etc...

That means if you leave the area after 3 seconds,
15*5+30*5+45*5 = 450 (magical) damage will be dealt to you, in 7 seconds.

You're set on fire, pal.

EDIT: Originally it also started with 1 dps in the 1st second, but it also has a casting time, that's why I removed it. (Original duration was 7/9/11 secs.)

[sweepberry]

Still getting into the macropyre computation and still reading. Will tell after I got it. *reads again*

[drogirant]

So if you are just caught by the AoE, get 1 buff, you will burn, instead of suffering 1 dmg point like the old one?

[sweepberry]

So this is like an AoE posion, a comparison due to a DPS.
About the damage per second, mostly I'm troubled with. Many questions popped out my head, but it takes time till I got the idea.

A buff will placed upon enemy units in every second they're in? the AoE.
1st sec: 15 dps for 5 sec
2nd sec: 30 dps for 5 sec
3rd sec: 45 dps for 5 sec
etc...

That means if you leave the area after 3 seconds,
15*5+30*5+45*5 = 450 (magical) damage will be dealt to you, in 7 seconds.

ok after repeatedly reading this, I got what's in your mind.
I don't know if its programmable and by the fact it changes "DPS" every second. But if its codable, then its good.

But the thing troubles me again is... the comparison for this and the current is BIG. Since this is mainly on DPS, you lost the good amount of "instant" damage. Leading this skill a situational type. Meaning you must be sure they stay there and really needs a secondary / third party help. (I know why must need a good disable)

Due to it's low initiate damage every second, it may be hard to kill a high regen / high HP heroes such as STR types and not to mention magic resistant items/ buffs. Its greatly countered by those... HoD is sure helpful to make the skill ineffective.
But on the other hand, the different DPS every second might change the tide. Seeing this skill working on the map will convince more than speaking me here, so yeah.

Another thing is, THD has already a DPS passive. Yet this is one is more big and complicated. So there might be some people will tell this, "two same effects might not be... etc.". But for me its good but I'm not good on long-term dps types.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by drogirant

So if you are just caught by the AoE, get 1 buff, you will burn, instead of suffering 1 dmg point like the old one?

Something like that. Buffs stack like Huskar's Burning Spear.
I'm pretty sure it's clear by now. There's a table that contains the applying buffs in every second. The fire gets bigger, longer, stronger with every level... You'll be able to get out, just like you can escape the current ultimate, but in my opinion this is far less situational.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by sweepberry

ok after repeatedly reading this, I got what's in your mind.
I don't know if its programmable and by the fact it changes "DPS" every second. But if its codable, then its good.

No, it does not change. Another buff will be applied every second, meaning they add up.

Originally Posted by sweepberry

But the thing troubles me again is... the comparison for this and the current is BIG. Since this is mainly on DPS, you lost the good amount of "instant" damage. Leading this skill a situational type. Meaning you must be sure they stay there and really needs a secondary / third party help. (I know why must need a good disable)

That's where the synergy with your Ice Path comes into play. MS red. And the AoE of this skill is considerable.

Originally Posted by sweepberry

HoD is sure helpful to make the skill ineffective.

Tell me something new. All magic damage dealing spells can be countered by magic resistance. And I'm not trying to make this an unavoidable armageddon.

Originally Posted by sweepberry

Another thing is, THD has already a DPS passive. Yet this is one is more big and complicated. So there might be some people will tell this, "two same effects might not be... etc.". But for me its good but I'm not good on long-term dps types.

Current Macropyre also deals DPS, but it does not rely on placing buffs. It's a multiple explosion which is not a "pyre".

[sweepberry]

yeah, seems fit for the Pyre theme.
So its a buff placer that sums up the DPS, and about the peak...
at lv1,lv2 and lv3's peak is at the 3rd, 4th, and 5th respectively? and then will fire out to the end of duration?
Its a great skill too, but I wonder how it will be programmed.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by sweepberry

yeah, seems fit for the Pyre theme.
So its a buff placer that sums up the DPS, and about the peak...
at lv1,lv2 and lv3's peak is at the 3rd, 4th, and 5th respectively? and then will fire out to the end of duration?
Its a great skill too, but I wonder how it will be programmed.

Yeah, it's like that.
Actually, final second can be removed just like 1st (1 DPS was also) due to its low damage but it's currently there, because it provides +1 second hero damage that can be useful against Daggers. Anyway, you get it.

[Lord_Talron]

tup now!

[sweepberry]

t-up ! ^^

[Dynes]

...?
In short, I still can't get how the 1880 damage is achieved on that table.

While I'm waiting for a response, how about the pyre starting small, then gradually growing?

[Zangetsu2201]

After reading your second post in this thread, I got it! (: I'm not a fan of the current Macropyre so I'm enthusiastic of every remake I see. This would have the same requirements as the current one (you have to keep your enemies there) and would work as well with Jak's other skills. But applying so many buffs could be problematic. I think that adding a single DPS buff, which increases its power the more an enemy stays there, would be a more elegant way to go (I'm know next to nothing when it comes to codeability).
Anyway, the idea is good, has a bigger potential than the current ult and it's not OP, IMO, as the damage is applied on a longer period of time. With this, maybe THD would get more attention and would be used more wisely. So, T-up!

[Redeemed A.I.]

The concept seems wise,t-up on that...
..but the numbers require tweaking,especially in level 3 ultimate.

Also,please consider aghanim's in your future maths

[Cp6uja]

I'm sorry, but your suggestion is overpowered in general, not in numbers. Buying aghanims is all you need for perfect ultimate, and it can devastate 3-4 heroes without any problems at all.

The only Jakiro's problem is his poor attack animation, 0 armor and bad turn rate. There's no need to overbuff his ultimate after the Aghanims upgrade.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Dynes

...?
In short, I still can't get how the 1880 damage is achieved on that table.

While I'm waiting for a response, how about the pyre starting small, then gradually growing?

What the heck? Are DotA people this bad @ maths?
Every buff lasts five seconds:
15*5+30*5+45*5+60*5+75*5+60*5+45*5+30*5+15*5+1*5=
5*(2*(15+30+45+60)+75+1)=1880
...allegedly.

Originally Posted by Zangetsu2201

But applying so many buffs could be problematic. I think that adding a single DPS buff, which increases its power the more an enemy stays there, would be a more elegant way to go (I'm know next to nothing when it comes to codeability).

That will need a confirmation from an expert to tell. As I said, this shouldn't be much of a problem seeing how Huskar's Burning Spears are able to work...I guess.

Originally Posted by Zangetsu2201

Anyway, the idea is good, has a bigger potential than the current ult and it's not OP, IMO, as the damage is applied on a longer period of time. With this, maybe THD would get more attention and would be used more wisely. So, T-up!

Yeah, I think so.

Originally Posted by Kasad

The concept seems wise,t-up on that...
..but the numbers require tweaking,especially in level 3 ultimate.

Also,please consider aghanim's in your future maths

About that... I don't even think about buffing its damage. What for? This will be a real pain in the ass anyway if pulled off right.
Bigger AoE is much better as an upgrade, as you see, this isn't that big.

As for current damage: If it requires lowering numbers, it won't be a problem. Number-balancing is the last thing always, the concept - imo - is basically not imba.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

AGHANIM'S UPGRADE

I was thinking about adding a channeling effect to the ultimate before unleashing the fire (~1-1.5 sec) considering its high damage, which Aghs would remove/decrease. No blasphemy, Crixalis, Nevermoar () have it too. And other battle-breaking ultimates like Black Hole are channeling the whole time. But this would require an animation I'm not sure exists.

All this of course if the AoE is buffed slightly...
to 550(*600)/600(*650)/650(*700)? Thoughts?

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Cp6uja_

I'm sorry, but your suggestion is overpowered in general, not in numbers. Buying aghanims is all you need for perfect ultimate, and it can devastate 3-4 heroes without any problems at all.

The only Jakiro's problem is his poor attack animation, 0 armor and bad turn rate. There's no need to overbuff his ultimate after the Aghanims upgrade.

Wait, what? There was no suggested Aghs upgrade in OP.
Read last comment about the channeling effect.

Also, positioning in fights are important. It's not like TC ult or Wall of Replica cannot be avoided.

[Cp6uja]

You're not getting my review at all.

I was talking about current skill which is good and with Aghanims upgrade is very viable. I was talking about "don't fix whats not broken" concept, not about your Aghanims upgrade, or whatever.

Please, don't try to rebalance already good spell, I've told you in last post what are Jakiro's problems.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Cp6uja_

You're not getting my review at all.

I was talking about current skill which is good and with Aghanims upgrade is very viable. I was talking about "don't fix whats not broken" concept, not about your Aghanims upgrade, or whatever.

Please, don't try to rebalance already good spell, I've told you in last post what are Jakiro's problems.

I'm aware of those problems, I'd been before you told me.
Well, then that's where our views differ since I do think his ultimate requires a change. And about fixing what's not broken... Oh god! Doom Bringer wasn't broken either.

[Dynes]

Originally Posted by megboklek

What the heck? Are DotA people this bad @ maths?
Every buff lasts five seconds:
15*5+30*5+45*5+60*5+75*5+60*5+45*5+30*5+15*5+1*5=
5*(2*(15+30+45+60)+75+1)=1880
...allegedly.

I so love your table...

X	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14
1	15	15	15	15	15	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
2	0	30	30	30	30	30	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
3	0	0	45	45	45	45	45	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
4	0	0	0	60	60	60	60	60	0	0	0	0	0	0
5	0	0	0	0	75	75	75	75	75	0	0	0	0	0
6	0	0	0	0	0	60	60	60	60	60	0	0	0	0
7	0	0	0	0	0	0	45	45	45	45	45	0	0	0
8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	30	30	30	30	30	0	0
9	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	15	15	15	15	15	0
10	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1

Vertical: Nth Pulse, Horizontal: Time elapsed

So depending on when you enter/exit the are, you will take damage based on the nth pulse, which lasts up to 5 seconds from the last one you get or w/e.