[Tweak] Dragon Tail

[megboklek]

Dragon Tail is a wisely scaled stun, has a decent early duration and matching low damage.

But(!!!) it has a huge disadvantage compared to other stuns. Every stun, bash, ministun or slow is accomodated to its hero so it will help him out in every situation. Dragon Tail is not, its only purpose is to stun the targed right beside you and hit em with all you've got. So it's flawed at one point, and it's a crucial point, which is the following:

Dragon Knight is a shapeshifter. After learning ultimate, he's practically always present in clashes in Elder Dragon Form. Meanwhile, this spell of his is based on the character of a human.

Good Davion has a melee range of 125 - Dragon Tail has a casting range of 150.
Elder Dragon has a range of 500 - Dragon Tail has a casting range of...150?

This makes him unable to fulfil his potential since the dragon's tail in itself is longer than 150 units. The advantage of being ranged currently has a cost of not being able to use one of his skills properly.

Suggested change:

Dragon Tail


When in Elder Dragon Form, casting range is 300.

Even with the MS bonus which dragon form grants, you most likely are unable to chase, unless you have Yasha/Manta or managed to hit your target first with Frost Attack - but then again, it's only the last level of ultimate, first two has no such ability.

Pros:
• Won't have to be next to target, thus not losing ranged advantage which is the purpose of the ultimate in the first place.
• Will be more useful stopping channeling spells.
• Can be used efficiently when chasing.
• Everything else.
Cons:
• Projectile is instant.
• Frost attack has a nice slow and combined with this change it's powerful when chasing. (?! Oh please! That's the whole point!)
But with that being said, you have to hit target first to slow them. And when attacking, you always lose some distance, so...

[Zangetsu2201]

You have a good point, but I'm not sure if it's codeable/balanced. (the duration of the stun is higher than Storm Bolt's and its projectile speed is instant). Null for now.

[ParaDise.-]

i don't know
amkes sence when you are chasing with a davion elder form lvl 12 red dragon has not slow atak like green dragon or blue so a stun with more range is useful but t-null for know

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Zangetsu2201

You have a good point, but I'm not sure if it's codeable/balanced. (the duration of the stun is higher than Storm Bolt's and its projectile speed is instant). Null for now.

I know, they have lot of differences, maybe it wasn't a good example. Look at Nessaj's Chaos Bolt then. It's instant and has a casting range of 500. He has an ability to cover up distance and rape.

Originally Posted by ParaDise.-

i don't know
amkes sence when you are chasing with a davion elder form lvl 12 red dragon has not slow atak like green dragon or blue so a stun with more range is useful but t-null for know

Corrosive Breath doesn't slow, it just deals damage over time. Only Frost Attack slows.

Note that I don't suggest dragon's attack range as casting range, so he needs to be, or had better be close to target to be able to deal his damage. I really don't think this would bring up balance issues. Currenty he can't even stop channeling spells with his stun because he goes under effect of such spells. This way at least he can be on the edge of that area to do so. If 400 is too much, 300-350 is still viable while 150 is simply ridiculous and useless.

[Quiesce]

Definitely codable.

I made a test map just recently, I used Storm Bolt with a projectile speed of 9000(lol).

*cough* T-Up

[Fydorian]

dragon knight is powerful enough now as it stands. He doesn't need a buff. Decrease the duration proportional to the distance, say 1-2 second at max distance, (with 150 units or less full) and that's the only way this will ever be balanced.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Fydorian

dragon knight is powerful enough now as it stands. He doesn't need a buff. Decrease the duration proportional to the distance, say 1-2 second at max distance, (with 150 units or less full) and that's the only way this will ever be balanced.

No. That requires changes in original spell, when Davion is in human form, that's not what I'm striving for. The only reason this thread has been made is because Dragon Tail is close to useless when he's in dragon form. You have to walk (fly?) up to enemy to cast it therefore if you use this spell, you're in melee range - right where you start.
1) You lose time until spell is cast.
2) Why fight in melee range if your ranged?

[Dynes]

Bargaining for 300, and a t-up.

[MonkeyEx]

rofl
it stuns for 3.25 sec and has a freaking 9 sec cooldown..
but yes, you have a point..

what confuses me is that slardar has 2.5 sec stun, 8 s cooldown and aoe..
hmm...

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by d4rk_T4nkR

rofl
it stuns for 3.25 sec and has a freaking 9 sec cooldown..
but yes, you have a point..

what confuses me is that slardar has 2.5 sec stun, 8 s cooldown and aoe..
hmm...

Truth to be told, I have no complaints about the spell itself - therefore none about duration, cd, damage, manacost or targeting type. But all heroes have a way of approaching target, see, Slardar has Sprint, Sven has Warcry, Nessaj has Chaos Rift etc. Ranged heroes can cast these stuns/disables from a distance where they don't lose ranged advantage, EDF does.

I don't see why people wouldn't agree since this is more of a 'fix'. (In a different way, that is.)

[Monsterlord]

T-down, it's a huge buff to someone who's already very strong. Just because he's ranged in DF doesn't mean his stun has to be, you can chase fine with Frost and the big ms boost he gets. If you must thing of it as something when he's using his ulti, think of it as anti-dps if anyone tries to go for him.

[Entlee]

No reason to buff him anymore... DK is fine... In EDF no one will use stun to chase someone, especially when you get frost att...

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Entlee

No reason to buff him anymore... DK is fine... In EDF no one will use stun to chase someone, especially when you get frost att...

No, for noone currently uses stun while chasing they have the current casting range to thank. It would be an option if it were available. Besides, everyone would choose hitting a standing target over a fleeing one.

[Unnamed_]

Originally Posted by Graupel

Definitely codable.

I made a test map just recently, I used Storm Bolt with a projectile speed of 9000(lol).

*cough* T-Up

He was talking about the skill being melee when you're melee and ranged when you're using your ultimate.
And I say that is totally codeable.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by Unnamed_

He was talking about the skill being melee when you're melee and ranged when you're using your ultimate.
And I say that is totally codeable.

Yes. Also, adding a projectile is also negotiable.
You see, the point is not certainly buffing DK, but kind of fixing something that's flawed by existence. You lose the advantage of being ranged when using Dragon Tail.

[darewin]

T-down. DK is already a strong hero, making dragon tail a ranged stun will make escaping from level 3 EDF near impossible which is OP. ever noticed why viper and drow have no stun skills? because a reliable slow+stun in one hero, especially one who can carry/semi-carry is OP.

[Unnamed_]

Originally Posted by megboklek

Yes. Also, adding a projectile is also negotiable.
You see, the point is not certainly buffing DK, but kind of fixing something that's flawed by existence. You lose the advantage of being ranged when using Dragon Tail.

It can be done.You just change the skill he has once he enters dragon form.So, it can have a projectile, different damage, no stun, slow...anything you'd like to put on it.

[megboklek]

Originally Posted by darewin

T-down. DK is already a strong hero, making dragon tail a ranged stun will make escaping from level 3 EDF near impossible which is OP. ever noticed why viper and drow have no stun skills? because a reliable slow+stun in one hero, especially one who can carry/semi-carry is OP.

Wait a minute. Then Dragon Tail is a bad skill for him in the first place, right?

Casting range of several ranged stuns:

Fissure	1200
Storm Bolt	600
Burrowstrike (lvl4)	650
Chaos Bolt	500
Hellfire Blast	525
Impale	500
Fireblast	600
Shackleshot	600

Suggested improvement is nowhere near these amounts. Also, in EDF he has 500 attack range, which is also bigger than 300.

Now, while I get your argument, you can't really compare Viper and Traxex to him. EDF is an ultimate, he doesn't gain much damage with it, the main purpose is the ranged form, the splash damage and - of course on lvl3 - the slow. Your point strictly focuses on 1on1 situations. Try to get away from Viper in 1on1... that amount of slow is already at least as powerful as DK with Dragon Tail and ult.

I do think this would make him a better choice in competitive games as well.

[BiH-Kira]

t-up.
Simply because DK could need this buff.
And those who say Dk si fine are just hypocrites. They are saying that DK is fine since they don't want any other hero to be better then their Mirana/Lion/CM.....

DK as everything the current metagame asks for. AOE presence, a nice stun, survivability.... Why isn't he picked then? Because he's weaker then other heroes with the same things. He needs a buff.

This sort of buff is excellent and makes sense. And maybe make the animation of the skill make DK turn 360° so that it looks like he did hit the target with his tail and will be facing the target again.

[sweepberry]

It is a good Point, Why would a dragon use a shield at the first place?
I support this, and the icon should be changed into a dragon-like tail instead of a shield.
T-Up!