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Old 03-09-2010, 04:02 PM   #1
killerlot12
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Lightbulb [ITEM] Refresher Orb


When was the last time you actually saw this item? And when you did who did you see it on? there are a handful ( i repeat a handful) of heroes on whom this item is even considerable let alone viable. thats 90% of the heroes this item is not even considered. The reason is not its mana cost or its stat bonuses. Its simply because ultimates dont need it. and refreshing a 60cd ultimate with a 210 second cd item is... daft. Hence i propose we make refresher more viable for all heroes who have a cooldown on their ultimate.



+5 HP/sec regeneration
+200% mana regeneration
+40 damage
Reset Cooldowns (active)
Oblivion Staff (1675)
Perseverance (1750)
Refresher Orb (1875)
Reset Cooldowns
Resets the cooldowns of all your abilities and items
Costs 375 mana, and has a Cooldown based on your ultimates cooldown. Cooldown of refresher is 1.5 times your ultimates cooldown. (Minimum of 90, Max of 210)
Mana requirements are double of the refreshers cooldown (Min 180 Max 375) (to conserve current balance)


Looking at some of the deadlier ultimates:

160 secs -> 210 secs. (Max of 210 secs)


140secs -> 210 secs


100 -> 150 secs (although mana is a problem for tc)


60 secs -> 90 secs

EDIT:
Heroes who would now consider refresher:


When the item is bought it will transform

the cooldowns are rounded off to the lowest multiple of 10 for simplicity and easy of implementation.

big change, yes but i think something ought to be done about this item.
A maximum of 6-7 Different refresher orbs will be needed. The bkb has 5 copies of itself, Agha has a lot moer. so its coding it is not that big a deal.
updated here due to difficulties in coding:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/19437...rb/#post894912
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Last edited by killerlot12; 04-27-2010 at 09:57 AM.
Old 03-09-2010, 04:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
When was the last time you actually saw this item? And when you did who did you see it on?
Today on Warlock ;]

It's a good idea, T-up.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Leaning up.
T-UP.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

i'm also not sure if the mana requirement should scale. then it would be viable on heroes like caster luna, atro, tide, puck, silencer, veno, rhasta.

it shouldnt be op of course, but it should be something to consider at least. Thanks for the Tups and suggestions would be welcome.
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

there is better or more actvity for str and agli heroes than refresher so u must think well befor u but becoz it neem mony and good farm ....
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Not codeable?

o_o
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Old 03-09-2010, 10:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Codable but requires a HUGE amount of work as it would need an value for every single hero with an active ult, as there is no way to detect the cooldown of a spell.

So while it is codable, it won't be implemented which is too bad as I think this would be a nice remake.

edit: let me bold some stuff for you...
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

@SNOW: No, it is not that easy since CD of spells variates according to spell lvl in many cases, and the CD also variates with aghanism in other cases.
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Old 03-09-2010, 11:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

I know thats why I'm saying it wont be done cause it would require a unique integer variable for every different cooldown. So while it COULD be done it would be because the amount of time needed to set this up.
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

yeah, they would have to create a different "Refresher Orb" for every single ultimate and every single different level of them

Doubt it will occur, unfortunately
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Yea the skill levels and scepter do complicate things. When i wrote it i was thinking that the unupgraded level 3s cooldown would be used and the cd would be rounded down to the lowest multiple of 10 to reduce the number of items to be implemented. Still seems kind of messy.

Although if we do assume only level 3 ultimates, and a rounding down to the lower multiple of 10 and also having a minimum cooldown of 90, we would have something like ~ 12 items i think. We'd need items with CD at:
(since ive said min is 90 secs)

90 (lich), 110, 120, 150, 170, 180, 210, 240 and maybe a few others, if we set a maximum we can reduce it even more.

note that the refreshers will not be named Refresher (Lucifer) like the scepter is but simply Refresher (110s). Using this we coudl also somewhat scale the mana cost based on the cooldown. Mana cost is double the refresher cooldown:

(lich is ruining things here. chain is going to be op a bit)
90 secs = 180 mana,
120 secs = 240 mana
Max of 375 mana.

(earlier was 375 fixed, the heroes on which refresher was viable are getting hit hard unless the max cap is imposed)
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:57 AM   #12
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

So Refresher is like Aghanim's now, Hero specific?

Instead of overcomplicating things with so many variations of Refresher... just put like 3 versions. One is the short version, at maybe 110 seconds, then the next one at 150 seconds then the 200 seconds one.

However, I'm not too keen on this suggestion, it looks like it's going to be a mess.

T-Down.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Its not hero specific its just an item that has a cooldown of 1.5 times your heroes level 3 ultimate cooldown. Is that hard? a minimum and a max cooldown limit too.

All this would make an item taht is pretty much useless on 90% of hte heroes a lot better. Also it seems like a forgotten item sort of, its never in competetive and i dont think it has been touched for the last 20 versions because... its... irrelevant?
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:32 AM   #14
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerlot12 View Post
Its not hero specific its just an item that has a cooldown of 1.5 times your heroes level 3 ultimate cooldown. Is that hard? a minimum and a max cooldown limit too.

All this would make an item taht is pretty much useless on 90% of hte heroes a lot better. Also it seems like a forgotten item sort of, its never in competetive and i dont think it has been touched for the last 20 versions because... its... irrelevant?
But it IS Hero specific, I'm pretty sure you are aware the Engine cannot detect how long your Ulti's cooldown is.

It's going to be like Aghanim, a different Refresher for each Hero, only you're not telling the players that.

That's why I advised you to just put all Heroes into 3 groups, No CD/Short CD Ulti, Medium CD Ulti, and Long CD Ulti, and create 3 appropriate Refreshers. It is still a lot of work of course, but at least it's a lot less than making a Refresher for each respective CD.

edit: removed mistakes in interpretation.

edit2:
A suggested item description for my suggested 3-group Refresher.

Quote:
"A magical orb that allows the user to refresh his/her spells. The cooldown and manacost is dependent on the owner's Ultimate skill."
It's simple and truthful.
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Last edited by Linism; 03-10-2010 at 06:38 AM.
Old 03-10-2010, 06:50 AM   #15
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

What about heroes with passive ultis?
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Old 03-10-2010, 07:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by linkyaw View Post
But it IS Hero specific, I'm pretty sure you are aware the Engine cannot detect how long your Ulti's cooldown is.

It's going to be like Aghanim, a different Refresher for each Hero, only you're not telling the players that.

That's why I advised you to just put all Heroes into 3 groups, No CD/Short CD Ulti, Medium CD Ulti, and Long CD Ulti, and create 3 appropriate Refreshers. It is still a lot of work of course, but at least it's a lot less than making a Refresher for each respective CD.

edit: removed mistakes in interpretation.

edit2:
A suggested item description for my suggested 3-group Refresher.



It's simple and truthful.
It would be unfair to heroes who are at the lower range of your groups and again would be imba on heroes in the upper range. Its really not a big deal creating ~ 6 odd items seeing as there are only so many ulties and so many multiples of 15 and 10 (30 is the gcd) between 90 (the minimum cooldown) and 210 (the max).

at the most it will need say 6.
I dont know if the engine can detect cooldowns (it should be able to) and if it can its ust a littme maths and it can pick which refresher orb should be created on that hero. Again its not a refresher for each respective CD. you simple decide between 6 refreshers the appropriate one depending on the cd of the ultimate, if the engine cant detect the CD then the id would need to be entered manually for each hero but it would still be picking between 6 items. reread if you have to.


For heroes with passive ulties and all ulties below 60 secs cd, the cooldown is the 90 secs minimum.
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

90 secs minimum...
Fine enough, since it will be imba if Mort will be able to spam daggers and PS with 375 mana intervals per casts...
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Old 03-10-2010, 12:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Since furions ulti is so short he will be able to 90 second refresh his farming ulti and his midas too (this could make midas very viable again) so its not completely useless on heroes with low cd ulties.
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Old 03-10-2010, 01:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

T-up
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

If this suggestion proves to be worth implementing, its worth coding.
+bump
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:06 AM   #21
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

T-up
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

t-up, and if it got implemented, thanks for the very hard work, mga gago putang ina!
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

this.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:32 PM   #24
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

nice idea , hard to code I think ( not worth the big effort?!)
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Not worth the big effort? Do you know when was the last few times refersher was changed? The last time it was mentioned in the changelog was 6.28 regarding disallowing on a necro with a spell i dont even remember.
6.28
If you cast necro and already own them on the field, the old ones get removed.
(i.e. no necro refresher, adapt, grow, etc)

before that in 6.09 its mentioned that veno can use it.

6.08
Faceless can now use refresher orb

6.04
*Refresher orb properly refreshes
*Refresher now 150% mana regen, like its components.

and 1 recent change i found:
6.60
Refresher Orb: Mana regen is now the total sum of its components (150->200%)

thats right, the current mana regen, components and cooldown for refresher were set in 6.04 the game must have changed completely 4-5 times since then and refresher orb has not kept up. It means it has been completely ignored because it was hardly viable on most heroes simply because of its concept. I think a bit of work would be justified to fix an item that has mostly been untouched for... 2 years is it?

source:
although some change logs are lost the recent ones arent.
Collection of change log right from 5.72 - DotA Allstars Discussion
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Old 03-17-2010, 01:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

T-up
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:30 AM   #27
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

T-UP...haven't actually seen anyone use this item on like the last 10 games.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Unfortunately not codable - Altering CD -> http://www.playdota.com/forums/63396...gs/#post368647

"Manipulation of cooldowns"

Sorry. I would've been wholeheartedly t-up if not for this.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Actually, the only choice so far is the a la Aghanim's Scepter method to achieve the effect.
Codeable.
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Old 03-20-2010, 12:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
Actually, the only choice so far is the a la Aghanim's Scepter method to achieve the effect.
Codeable.
Yes. Unless that is used. That will involve a large remake effort however - imo it's worth it tho.
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Old 03-20-2010, 03:05 AM   #31
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

The original plan was per skill cooldown, now its just averaged.
As in heroes having ultimate skills that have cooldowns ranging from 50-100 secs (for example), would all receive a refresher that has a cooldown of 150.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:14 AM   #32
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon View Post
Unfortunately not codable - Altering CD -> http://www.playdota.com/forums/63396...gs/#post368647

"Manipulation of cooldowns"

Sorry. I would've been wholeheartedly t-up if not for this.
Actually it works differently from agha scepter and is not the cd of a single item being manipulated.
There will not be a single refresher orb for every hero, there will be ~ 6-7 refresher orbs for 30 sec intervals between 90 and 210 secs. When you buy one it will transform into the appropriate refersher orb depending on your level 3 ultimate cd (just like stout and skadi transform when u pick them up)
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corest View Post
yeah, they would have to create a different "Refresher Orb" for every single ultimate and every single different level of them

Doubt it will occur, unfortunately

Aghanims much? And it isn't hard actually. Simple triggers - Check hero then check level of ultimate (if CD changes with levels) and convert the orb to a preset one with preset cd. Tough it would require around 200 different refreshers o_o
About ^
What about AA, Slark, Huskar (esp. with agha), etc etc.
Also... Storm? 1.5 x 0 = 0cd on refresher = wtf mode for storm.
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Old 03-21-2010, 02:01 AM   #34
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by googleson78 View Post
What about AA, Slark, Huskar (esp. with agha), etc etc.
Also... Storm? 1.5 x 0 = 0cd on refresher = wtf mode for storm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killerlot12 View Post
Cooldown of refresher is 1.5 times your ultimates cooldown. (Minimum of 90, Max of 210)
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:54 AM   #35
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

t-down sorry i don't like the idea,
i like the current one but i find the problem lies within the CREATION of the item,

someone has suggested changing the ingredients to soul booster and something else and lower the recipe cost, this would suit it more because it would give the ability to be brought earlier because people don't buy it when they have low mana... i wonder why? t_t
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:04 AM   #36
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

10 second Chrono for about 150 seconds only that would be nice =)

T-UP
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:08 AM   #37
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Slark too, 90 secs cd on refresher for 10 sec of dance mana cost reduces with cd cost too so mana wont be a huge problem

@IAmMegaZ: Ive explained hte reason for the change in my first post, its not because people are low on mana, its simply because of the huge mis match between ultimate cd's and the refresher cd.
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:15 AM   #38
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAmMeGaZ View Post
someone has suggested changing the ingredients to soul booster and something else and lower the recipe cost, this would suit it more because it would give the ability to be brought earlier because people don't buy it when they have low mana... i wonder why? t_t
The point of refresher is to refresh skills, and not to provide extra mana. Refresher having extra manapool would more than defeat the purpose of it having 375 manacost for activation.
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

Ingenious. T-UP!

I really like the idea as it makes refresher viable on a lot more heroes. However, the numbers can use a little bit tweaking as it can be OP for some heroes like AA.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:22 AM   #40
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Default Re: [ITEM] Refresher Orb

This is like how scepter used to be and intel item but agi and str hero have to buy it for ultimate buff but now its an all rounder item say it give stats to all attributes

t-up for this universal refresher orb
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