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Old 03-14-2010, 01:16 PM   #1
Yendor
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Default make eaglehorn cheaper


well... I've been thinking about this for a long time now...

WHY is Eaglehorn so expencive?

let's compare:

: 460 gold
: 485 gold
: 510 gold

prices are this way, because:

gives 3 % at-speed and 0.5 armor

gives 39 mana and 0.12 mana reg

gives 57 health and 0.09 health reg.

all compared to the other ones.
prices make sense imo, because hp is most important
(agi and int are equal imo...)

now
= 2700 gold for 325 mana and 1 mana per second
= 3200 gold for 475 hp and 0.75 hp per second
= 3300 gold for 25% at-speed and 3.5 armor...

why is eagle horn THIS expensive ?


I would suggest to reduce it's price to 3000...

this would either result in butterfly to have a recipe again (300 gold) or to be cheaper by 300 gold (5700 in total)


please share your thoughts...
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

This site really need to have some beginner guide for posting or something. Do you seriously think no one thought about this before you? Those prices are scaled that way because in late game, armor+ias>hp>>>>mana. Some play experience can easily tell you that.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

T-d, even Gheizen64 said so...
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:05 PM   #4
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

yes. armor + ias > mana
and armor + ias > hp and hp reg,

BUT butterfly > heart ???
butterfly > guinsoo ???

the problem is: butterfly has a worse build up than other strong lategame itens, because of eaglehorn !

furthermore: eaglehorn ONLY goes to butterfly, while the other big stat items have multiple upgreades.

i accepted the price, as it was the only possibillity to obtain evasion, but since there is a talisman now, eaglehorn allone is worse than a maelstrom (better buildup, ONE damage less but chain lightning and an easier upgreade)
damn it... you may even build a 70-75 % compleeted mantastyle for the same price !
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

As said before, in early game, HP and Mana are clearly better than AS, but, in late-game, attack speed is much more effective, especially combined with other items. That's why most carries are agi heroes.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
yes. armor + ias > mana
and armor + ias > hp and hp reg,

BUT butterfly > heart ???
butterfly > guinsoo ???

the problem is: butterfly has a worse build up than other strong lategame itens, because of eaglehorn !

furthermore: eaglehorn ONLY goes to butterfly, while the other big stat items have multiple upgreades.

i accepted the price, as it was the only possibillity to obtain evasion, but since there is a talisman now, eaglehorn allone is worse than a maelstrom (better buildup, ONE damage less but chain lightning and an easier upgreade)
damn it... you may even build a 70-75 % compleeted mantastyle for the same price !
OMG PHASE BOOTS COST ONLY 1500 AND GIVE +24 DAMAGE. ARE YOU MAD? MITHRIL HAMMER COST 1600 AND DON'T GIVE MOVEMENT SPEED NEITHER PHASE ABILITY!

Morale: You can't compare recipe item with components. You want to embarass yourself more or you stop here?
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G.ZZZ on dota2.

Look my reorganization of the weapon shop for:
Organized shop layout (ala Sena the Accesorizer)
More unique +dmg items (BoA ,Broadswoard & Claymore)
Items and recipes are more logical and intuitive
Hammer is the old Javelin (the %chance fits naturaly in Basher + Mael)
Desolator is now made from swords
and more!
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

and the ias is strong, no doubt... but 25% is not THAT strong though.
it's only a reduction of 300 gold (not much, but noticable, as it will be buildt up faster) and the ONLY recipe, eaglehorn is used for may be increased by 300, to keep ballance.

and one thing:

most carrys (agi) have baaaad farming qualitys, but have to buy the second most expencive item in the game ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
OMG PHASE BOOTS COST ONLY 1500 AND GIVE +24 DAMAGE. ARE YOU MAD? MITHRIL HAMMER COST 1600 AND DON'T GIVE MOVEMENT SPEED NEITHER PHASE ABILITY!

Morale: You can't compare recipe item with components. You want to embarass yourself more or you stop here?
1. may you please stop being impolite?

2. you compare boots with weapons, while i compare weapons for carries with weapons for carries.
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Last edited by Yendor; 03-14-2010 at 02:14 PM.
Old 03-14-2010, 05:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

The thing is this:
Eaglehorn is the strongest lategame item, as it gives around 3.5 armor, 25 IAS and 25 damage to agility heroes. Most agility heroes are carries, and therefor giving them a chance to fast farm to a heavy item will seriously destroy the balance in game.
Tanks who wants behemoth will most likely not deal that high amount of damage in teamfights, and as behemoth only boosts attackabilities for strength heroes by 25 damage, that isnt such a big problem. An agi carry going for satanic will most likely miss damage, but gain survivabilty, and if they go for kuldras they are most likely screwed.
Old items prices are not to be discussed as they ahve been proven worthy in way to many version.
But Eaglehorn needs an updgrade!
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Failure View Post
Old items prices are not to be discussed as they ahve been proven worthy in way to many version.
that's the reason, why planeswalkers cloaks price was increased from 400 to 500 a few versions ago...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Failure View Post
But Eaglehorn needs an updgrade!
I agree totally...


and to put it clear:
Eaglehorn by itself is NOT that strong, to be worth 3300!
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
and to put it clear:
Eaglehorn by itself is NOT that strong, to be worth 3300!
Yes it is, you don't count items values on their own, and you can't compare them. As Eaglehorn is only used to butterfly, lowering its price by even 300 would increase the chance that carries will get this first, giving them a boost. If we get an upgrade we will discuss the price!
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Attack speed is a great factor late game because it is used by Agi carries. Eaglehorn's attack speed is remarkable, and considering the fact that you gain AS every level, ur logic is flawed. T-down
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhunter View Post
Attack speed is a great factor late game because it is used by Agi carries. Eaglehorn's attack speed is remarkable, and considering the fact that you gain AS every level, ur logic is flawed. T-down
1. for nearly the same price of eaglehorn, you gain one , one and one , which is a complete manta style (without the two recipes) which gives WAY more benefits.
even the flaw of using more space is minimal, as you may simply upgreade it.

2. what do you mean wit : you gain as every level?
ofcourse every hero gains agi per level (which results in as) I know... what has this to do with ANYTHING?

3. where is the flaw in my logic?
again:
mantastyle without recipes ~ 3500 gold = 26 agi and 10 all other stats
eaglehorn = 3300 gold = 25 agi...

4. I KNOW THAT AT-SPEED is important lategame...
BUT that doesent have to say, that 25 % have to cost 3300 gold (if you all want to ONLY concentrate on at-speed)

and if you say that it provides some bonus armor also:
hyperstone + chainmail = 2650 gold = 55% at-speed + 5 armor

5. please don't treat me like an idiot.
i know that at-speed is important, and i know, that eaglehorn is a strong item, but i dont think that it is worth 3300 gold...
especially if you consider that it has only one upgreade possibillity...
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Old 03-14-2010, 09:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Fact: Eaglehorn occupies only one slot.

But I gotta agree EH is kinda too expensive. I wouldn't mind it cost 3000 and talisman cost 2100.

And I also want another upgrade for eh.
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Old 03-14-2010, 09:19 PM   #14
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephirdd View Post
Fact: Eaglehorn occupies only one slot.
I know.
=> i said: you could upgreade those 3 items to manta style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephirdd View Post
But I gotta agree EH is kinda too expensive. I wouldn't mind it cost 3000 and talisman cost 2100.

And I also want another upgrade for eh.
exactly what i said
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
1. for nearly the same price of eaglehorn, you gain one , one and one , which is a complete manta style (without the two recipes) which gives WAY more benefits.
even the flaw of using more space is minimal, as you may simply upgreade it.

2. what do you mean wit : you gain as every level?
ofcourse every hero gains agi per level (which results in as) I know... what has this to do with ANYTHING?

3. where is the flaw in my logic?
again:
mantastyle without recipes ~ 3500 gold = 26 agi and 10 all other stats
eaglehorn = 3300 gold = 25 agi...

4. I KNOW THAT AT-SPEED is important lategame...
BUT that doesent have to say, that 25 % have to cost 3300 gold (if you all want to ONLY concentrate on at-speed)

and if you say that it provides some bonus armor also:
hyperstone + chainmail = 2650 gold = 55% at-speed + 5 armor

5. please don't treat me like an idiot.
i know that at-speed is important, and i know, that eaglehorn is a strong item, but i dont think that it is worth 3300 gold...
especially if you consider that it has only one upgreade possibillity...


If Eaglehorn can only be upgraded into a BFLY, then suggest a remake of other items, not make it cheaper.

1st: Yes it does give armor, AS, damage etc, but the fact that agi carries benefit so much from this is what makes it expensive. If this was cheaper and easily affordable, Agi carries would be praising your name. Thank you yendor! Though the price difference doesn't make much of a difference. If it was like 2,900 G good luck.

2nd: Your proposed( BUFF) doesn't affect much on the item considering you only reduced 300 G, which IMO is unnecessary. If you want you could also decrease reaver to 3000 no one would mind.


3rd: Agility heroes have dps, as and armor already in itself. Their agi gain is quite decent although some don't have decent stat gains. Imagine Troll- He already has massive dps and as, and making eaglehorn cheaper will make him what?? Or lets say void- insane dps and decent agility, making eaglehorn cheaper would make him??? the guy that doesn't let you move???

Well not that i am treating you like an idiot, but as already said by Gheizen64 and Sgt. Failure

"Yes it is, you don't count items values on their own, and you can't compare them. As Eaglehorn is only used to butterfly, lowering its price by even 300 would increase the chance that carries will get this first, giving them a boost. If we get an upgrade we will discuss the price!"

"OMG PHASE BOOTS COST ONLY 1500 AND GIVE +24 DAMAGE. ARE YOU MAD? MITHRIL HAMMER COST 1600 AND DON'T GIVE MOVEMENT SPEED NEITHER PHASE ABILITY!"

"Morale: You can't compare recipe item with components. You want to embarass yourself more or you stop here?"


Butterfly is indeed the strongest late game item for dpsers. If 25% is not enough to perma bash like troll or void, i don't know what does

Does manta give evasion? Does it give as much IAS, agility, damage.

Well it does give more armor, str and int i can tell you that, but is Bfly< manta?

That's what makes eaglehorn expensive even though it only gives agility- it is a component that leads to Butterfly and that +25 agility is not something to be cool about, it is very destructive.

If you want to upgrade it, don't change the price, if you want you could tweak the agi it gives to the bearer.

Would i buy a manta or bfly? Would i buy 1 eaglehorn or an ulti orb, BoA and BoE??


Comparison:
2100


1000

450


= 3,550

Gives: 26 agility! 10 str and 10 int and can become manta style

-250 would be an eaglehorn with a difference of 1 agi point.


Gives 25 but can become butterfly!!!

3 slots for 1.

Actually you have a point there, the fact that these 3 components that cost 250 more for +10 str, + 1 agi and + 10 int while eaglehorn is 3300 for just 25 agility, but still it doesn't get you a butterfly


The end result is the most important.

Well, i might just give you a t-up for wanting to change eaglehorn, but i don't agree with pricing, maybe benefits. If there's no other way to do it, i'll have to give in.

Reasoning:

Pro's of Manta
- Manta gives clones, decent stats and more armor.

Con's
- a lot of components

Pro's of Butterfly
-Evasion, Attack speed, and damage.

Con's: Agility upgrade to 5 only


Also, put some pro's and cons.
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T-down , but I think 2nd icon need changes but not needed!
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Last edited by darkhunter; 03-14-2010 at 10:49 PM.
Old 03-15-2010, 06:23 AM   #16
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
3. where is the flaw in my logic?
again:
mantastyle without recipes ~ 3550 gold = 26 agi and 10 all other stats
eaglehorn = 3300 gold = 25 agi...

4. I KNOW THAT AT-SPEED is important lategame...
BUT that doesent have to say, that 25 % have to cost 3300 gold (if you all want to ONLY concentrate on at-speed)

and if you say that it provides some bonus armor also:
hyperstone + chainmail = 2650 gold = 55% at-speed + 5 armor

5. please don't treat me like an idiot.
i know that at-speed is important, and i know, that eaglehorn is a strong item, but i dont think that it is worth 3300 gold...
especially if you consider that it has only one upgreade possibillity...
The problem is still that eaglhorn builds up to single most powerful carry item out there, and allowing agility heroes such as void or morphling (IDK their builds) to get it faster will if not ruin atleast inbalance gamebalance. And please for christ sake don't improve the cost of Talisman, its even more worthless for its price. Im kinda split, Butterfly needs a hard buildup, but eaglehorn deserves some justice
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: make eaglehorn cheaper

as Gheizen said.
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