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Old 03-15-2010, 12:54 PM   #1
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Default [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team











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Bolvar




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Old 03-16-2010, 08:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Just because they're cool guys in WoW, doesn't necesarrily mean they belong in DotA.

The poor quality models you've chosen doesn't reflect those epic names you embodied.
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Old 03-16-2010, 12:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmplifyDamage View Post
Just because they're cool guys in WoW, doesn't necesarrily mean they belong in DotA.

The poor quality models you've chosen doesn't reflect those epic names you embodied.
In the end, those guys (my hero) are just two normal soldiers who combine their skills to be able to catch up to a 'normal' hero. The WoW characters are not neccessarily related to my heroes.

The names were chosen because I generally get my inspiration from the lore and Bolvar Fordragon (Highlord of Stormwind's military forces) and Varok Saurfang (Supreme Commander of Ogrimmar's military) seemed as a good solution. Some people might now them from WoW and the more they make a dent the better pubilcity my hero gets.

I could have used some more generic names of course, but 'Frank and Tagar' (or whatever) just doesn't sound heroic enough.
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Old 03-16-2010, 02:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

one simple comment:

I dont like it, the fact that there are two newbies fighting side by side, Dota would never make a hero like it since its a pain the but and all skills are frigging not unique(for me)
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Old 03-16-2010, 02:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom146 View Post
one simple comment:

I dont like it, the fact that there are two newbies fighting side by side, Dota would never make a hero like it since its a pain the but and all skills are frigging not unique(for me)
Oh, and what about Meepo? He's even two more 'newbies'. ^^

And regarding the skills...
There are 8 of them instead of 4. I had to keep them (some kind of) simple to make the hero not too complicated.
It's right that some of them have similarities to others in DotA. But the 'uniqueness' of this hero does not come from fancy spells but from the concept.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

I actually really, really like the concept of a tag-team. Something about two skilled but unremarkable soldiers teaming up to take down the big boys just seems pretty awesome.

A couple of points to think about though, before I even look at the skills, would be item and exp balance. I'd consider limiting them to 4 inventory slots each, so they have room for boots and enough items to keep them useful, whereas if they both had 6 slots, you could have two powerhouses by the time the game gets late. Think syllabear, but the bear having real skills instead of some passives.

Another point would be giving them some kind of exp bonus, when they're together, and penalty when they're not. Otherwise they would quickly get outleveled while they're together, and would quickly outlevel someone when they're apart. It needs a balancing factor to make sure they don't have Meepo-style speed leveling, who gets it because his clones can't rely on items for their stats.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Really like it, I feel that you'd spend all game getting cheap stats items though. I also say bolvar does more damage than the other dude, 2x crit every .3 seconds? That's ursa-level dps.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Don't quite understand Bolvar's 1st skill. Why is the "10 hits" condition needed?

Bolvar's 2nd skill:
Quote:
Complete blocks 6 attacks or one spell
So does it still block that one spell after blocking 1/2/3/4/5 attacks?

Bolvar's 3rd skill is too strong in any circumstance I can imagine.

Bolvar's ultimate skill:
So basically you use this skill and he will jump around the battle damaging anything that attacks his allies?
Quote:
If enemy attacks while this skill is active, nothing happens
I'm confused

Saurfang's 1st skill: no comment

Saurfang's 2nd skill: no comment

Saurfang's 3rd skill: Ok this is good.

Saurfang's ultimate skill:
This skill does too many things that have already been done by other skills
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Thanks to everyone for their comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
I actually really, really like the concept of a tag-team. Something about two skilled but unremarkable soldiers teaming up to take down the big boys just seems pretty awesome.

A couple of points to think about though, before I even look at the skills, would be item and exp balance. I'd consider limiting them to 4 inventory slots each, so they have room for boots and enough items to keep them useful, whereas if they both had 6 slots, you could have two powerhouses by the time the game gets late. Think syllabear, but the bear having real skills instead of some passives.

Another point would be giving them some kind of exp bonus, when they're together, and penalty when they're not. Otherwise they would quickly get outleveled while they're together, and would quickly outlevel someone when they're apart. It needs a balancing factor to make sure they don't have Meepo-style speed leveling, who gets it because his clones can't rely on items for their stats.
Of course balancing the exp gain is a problem.
I want them to have about the same levelspeed as the other heroes ingame. Because of their spells they are perfect jungerls, their jungling speed would be about the same like Enigma's or even a bit better after they got some items.

The item slots are (for now) ok, I think. They have horribly bad stats (Bolvar 40 starting, Saurfang 50 starting and both have 4.1 gain, what is even less than Meepos 4.8) but their farming speed and additional item slots denies that fact a bit.
If you are still not convinced, take a look at Alchimist. He farms better than most heroes because of Goblin's Greed but is hardly ever picked and never played as carry (regarding competetive games).

But everything is changeable. It's only numbers. ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by lozarian View Post
Really like it, I feel that you'd spend all game getting cheap stats items though. I also say bolvar does more damage than the other dude, 2x crit every .3 seconds? That's ursa-level dps.
Cheap core items like Bracers, Power Treads (on both), Vanguard and/ or Hood (Bolvar) and Armlet/ BKB (Saurfang) are like I have imagined it, yes.

Bolvar's first skill has got an 8 second cooldown and can only be cast after Bolvar recieved 10 attacks. No way Ursa-like DPS and I doubt that he will reach the damage output of Saurfang.

If you are talking about the ultimate, well... it's an ultimate and should be scary on some way. ^^ But this damage is divided between every enemy and it's only for 6 seconds, therefore he can only charge 20 times. And if you look at his shitty base damage it won't be too strong, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanzakill View Post
Don't quite understand Bolvar's 1st skill. Why is the "10 hits" condition needed?

Bolvar's 2nd skill:

So does it still block that one spell after blocking 1/2/3/4/5 attacks?

Bolvar's 3rd skill is too strong in any circumstance I can imagine.

Bolvar's ultimate skill:
So basically you use this skill and he will jump around the battle damaging anything that attacks his allies?

I'm confused

Saurfang's 1st skill: no comment

Saurfang's 2nd skill: no comment

Saurfang's 3rd skill: Ok this is good.

Saurfang's ultimate skill:
This skill does too many things that have already been done by other skills
Bolvar:
First skill: Imagine a 2 second stun every 8 seconds along with a 2.2x critical strike for 20 Mana. Imba? Yes.
That's why the '10 hits' condition is needed.
Also, it makes Bolvar a beast when he is able to tank the opponents. He's designed to be the tank and has to take hits to unleash his true potential. (--> Synergy with Second Skill).

Second skill: On level 3 and 4 of the skill it blocks 5/6 attacks OR one spell. That means as long as 'block charges' are left it will block single target spells.
But if you block one spell all the charges are removed.

Third skill: This is mainly to buff up Bolvar's armor (he got shit Agi gain and therefore needs it) and based on the 'Inner Fire' buff from ladder. But I agree, maybe it's to powerful.
Maybe I will nerf the strenght of the buff if it's applied on allied heroes (exept Saurfang of course).

Ultimate: Basically, yes. But he only does this, if an enemy hero damages an allied unit. After charging, Bolvar will perform a critical strike and force the enemy to attack him for some time.

Saurfang:
Ultimate: It's a bit like Power Cogs from Rattle, but the Ring of Valor is indestructible and you can't Leap/ Blink/ Fly (exept Blink Dagger) out of it because of the silence. You trap him in there with you, he can't escape and his only possibility is to stay and fight. It works in a little similar way (regarding the skill itself), but it is much more powerful and serves a different purpose.
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Old 03-17-2010, 05:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

I like the concept.. I just want to see 1 active skill that utilizes both heroes to get better effects. such as Saurfang or bolvar being able throw any unit-but if the other hero is thrown does more damage or other effects. that's just an example and throwing units isn't suited for these two. As for uniqueness I don't really care unless its an exact replica. And I don't think neither are effective farmers, which they need to be since as you've said, they are weak and need's some items to be in an mid/end game clash. about the Exp gain, make them get half exp for everything while both are alive and full exp when 1 is dead.

Bolvar
no problem with 1st skill. but i have a question about the 2nd skill, does the 30% come from the damage he receives or maximum HP or current hp. 3rd skill, who gets the buff? Him or the attacked hero or both? Ultimate, uhm.. Charge means he runs towards it right? shouldn't he get a speed boost coz there are going to be a max of 5 heroes that can be attacked around him and normal speed wouldn't really cut it-specially coz he only has 1.5 taunt duration. and to clear up one of your notes, did you mean if another enemy attacks while charging another enemy, he won't change target?

Saurfang
1st skill, shouldn't he get at least 10% evasion since his 2nd can't be activated without bolvar. 2nd skill, should at least be usable for half the effects without bolvar or give a passive buff-mainly because bolvar wouldn't always be there. 3rd skill, IMO requires a disable, or at least deal 5 dps to units attacking. I have no problem Ultimate.

All in all, I like the concept, I just think it needs some changes. I hope this helps in improving your hero.

If you have time. Check any of my Hero suggestions.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by eleazar03 View Post
I like the concept.. I just want to see 1 active skill that utilizes both heroes to get better effects. such as Saurfang or bolvar being able throw any unit-but if the other hero is thrown does more damage or other effects. that's just an example and throwing units isn't suited for these two. As for uniqueness I don't really care unless its an exact replica. And I don't think neither are effective farmers, which they need to be since as you've said, they are weak and need's some items to be in an mid/end game clash. about the Exp gain, make them get half exp for everything while both are alive and full exp when 1 is dead.

Bolvar
no problem with 1st skill. but i have a question about the 2nd skill, does the 30% come from the damage he receives or maximum HP or current hp. 3rd skill, who gets the buff? Him or the attacked hero or both? Ultimate, uhm.. Charge means he runs towards it right? shouldn't he get a speed boost coz there are going to be a max of 5 heroes that can be attacked around him and normal speed wouldn't really cut it-specially coz he only has 1.5 taunt duration. and to clear up one of your notes, did you mean if another enemy attacks while charging another enemy, he won't change target?

Saurfang
1st skill, shouldn't he get at least 10% evasion since his 2nd can't be activated without bolvar. 2nd skill, should at least be usable for half the effects without bolvar or give a passive buff-mainly because bolvar wouldn't always be there. 3rd skill, IMO requires a disable, or at least deal 5 dps to units attacking. I have no problem Ultimate.

All in all, I like the concept, I just think it needs some changes. I hope this helps in improving your hero.

If you have time. Check any of my Hero suggestions.
Thank you for your comment.
While I understand what you mean, I don't really like it. Both of them are specializing in melee combat and some weird nuke which does more damage if they stand near each other (or whatever) just doesn't fit.

About farming, I have planned them as junglers. Bolvar tanks the creeps' hits, therefore does more damage and Saurfang is never attacked, therefore does more damage, too.

Bolvar:
Skill 2: The 30% increased health is applied after the buff runs out and is based on Bolvar's maximum health.

Skill 3: The hero who was attacked by an enemy who is under the effect of the aura (600 range of Bolvar) gets the buff.

Ultimate: Yes, charging means to run up to an enemy and strike him. He would of course run much, much faster than normal. I imagine something like an immediate Blink and an fitting animation which displays the 'charge' in a good way. I should add that in the Notes.
He only can perform this charge once every 0.3 seconds.

Saurfang:
Skill 1: Evasion is a boring skill and currently overused (Panda, Mortred, Void + Talisman of Evasion). No need.

Skill 2: Bolvar WILL always be there. If he's not you missunderstood the main idea of this hero or one of them died and so you are fucked anyway.

Skill 3: The disable of this hero team comes from Bolvar's Reckoning skill which will force the enemy to attack him. If it's not enough disabling power to kill an enemy this skill needs to be improved. No need to add another disable I think.
Also, there is Ring of Valor which traps enemies.
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

I like it Nice concept of a tag team hero. Will require some micro to handle, (thats y we have the unit-sharing option lol)
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Old 03-22-2010, 12:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Hm... just a short comment before I do a full review on it.
Bolvar's 2nd ability works like Lanaya's Refraction but with an added heal. Perhaps reducing damage could do but this time, increase the amount of attacks that Bolvar can block.

Other than that, everything seems to be good. Perhaps giving a link, like 2,200 range or more, with both heroes being strong on their own and stronger with one another, it should be fair that both heroes should share the same lane.
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Interesting for sure but i'm unsure whether it's balanced.. but sylla got a pet as well... chen got 3 max... hmmm
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterDevil76 View Post
Hm... just a short comment before I do a full review on it.
Bolvar's 2nd ability works like Lanaya's Refraction but with an added heal. Perhaps reducing damage could do but this time, increase the amount of attacks that Bolvar can block.

Other than that, everything seems to be good. Perhaps giving a link, like 2,200 range or more, with both heroes being strong on their own and stronger with one another, it should be fair that both heroes should share the same lane.
Bolvar's skill does not prevent damage from spells and the added HP is to balance his weak Str gain a bit.

I'm still not sure about numbers regarding XP range because I have no insight in how exactly it is balanced for normal heroes.
And again, they are planned as a jungle hero, I'm not sure if they work very well at early levels in lane. ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycan View Post
Interesting for sure but i'm unsure whether it's balanced.. but sylla got a pet as well... chen got 3 max... hmmm
The balance is of course a issue with this hero, but this suggestion is mainly about the concept.
I tried to balance the hero by giving them very bad stats.

Combined they have 8.2 stat gain per level, just compare it to Rooftrellen's 7.2. I think balance will come with the time.
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Old 03-30-2010, 01:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Not a very good idea sorry.
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Old 03-30-2010, 09:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

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Not a very good idea sorry.
Oh, how I love this sort of replies.
Please state what you don't like so I can improve it.
If you don't like the suggestion in general (2 in 1 hero) state how you would do it.

Edit: Or don't reply at all.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

This hero is seriously well though out and amazing...

Love to see this in DotA.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Could the XP gained, for example in a double lane (Ex: B&S and Lina) be divided by 3? Since after all are three heroes.

I really like the idea, and the fact that one dieing don't kill the other might make people pick him more than meepo.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: [STR-SENT] Bolvar & Saurfang - Combat Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labyrinth Suite View Post
Could the XP gained, for example in a double lane (Ex: B&S and Lina) be divided by 3? Since after all are three heroes.

I really like the idea, and the fact that one dieing don't kill the other might make people pick him more than meepo.
The XP should not be divided by three. Generally, I don't want them to have a worse XP gain than other heroes only because they are two.
I have no idea how to achieve it the best way, but those two should have the same XP gain as a normal hero.

And I don't think it's necessary to kill the other one if one of them dies. They can't do much without each other anyway, a buff that increases damage taken (or decreses damage done, whatever) should be enough.
Of course the enemies should only get half the gold for killing.
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