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Old 03-24-2010, 01:32 AM   #1
Terresquall
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Default [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce


EDIT 061110: Added a test map! You can now check out how the skill will handle.
EDIT 051110: I've added cast time info about the suggested skill.
EDIT 311010: I've made the tooltip description of the skill simpler to understand.

The Skills

Quote:
Current Coup de Grâce

Mortred has refined her hero-killing skills to a high degree.

Level 1 - 15% chance to 2x critical.
Level 2 - 15% chance to 3x critical.
Level 3 - 15% chance to 4x critical.
Quote:
Suggested Coup de Grâce (Active)

Causes the Phantom Assassin's next attack to become a critical hit that deals increased attack damage. The strength of the critical hit depends on how many times the Phantom Assassin has attacked beforehand, with each strike adding a portion of her attack damage to the critical for 10 seconds. Upon activation of the skill, the critical bonus will be spent on the next attack carried out, but it will be lost if no attack is carried out in 2 seconds.

Level 1 - Each strike adds 25% of attack damage.
Level 2 - Each strike adds 35% of attack damage.
Level 3 - Each strike adds 45% of attack damage.

Cooldown: 10/7/5
Manacost: 0
Cast Time: 0 (Must be based on Wind Walk or Berserk)
How It Works

I will use a scenario to explain it:

Assume a Mortred with a Level 1 ultimate hits a target 5 times, then activates the ultimate for the 6th attack. Each hit increases the critical multiplier of her attack by 0.25 (i.e. adds 25% of her attack damage), thus with 5 attacks, we get a multiplier of 2.25 (i.e. 1 + [0.25x5 attacks]). The 6th attack does not add another charge to the multiplier--it deals the critical damage accumulated.
  • The multiplier drops back to 1 the moment an attack is executed with the skill on, or 2 seconds after activating the critical (this means you have to time it right too).
  • Each increment lasts 10 seconds.
  • There is no limit to the multiplier, except that it drops one charge every 10 seconds. The faster you attack, the higher you can stack up the multiplier.
  • The counter is not reset upon changing targets. You can attack a target to build up a critical multiplier, then go straight for another target with a Coup de Grâce right off the bat. The only thing that reduces the counter is the 10-second limit for each charge.
Why it is an Improvement

Coup de grâce is a French expression which roughly translates into "a finishing or decisive stroke in a course of action" when expressed in English. The current skill, however, is a terrible representation of the phrase; because a coup de grâce is, more often than not, a calculated and lethal act--something which a luck-based critical strike doesn't represent well-enough. Sure, the luck-based critical that is Coup will more often than not, be responsible for many sudden kills that the Phantom Assassin does. The problem is that none of these kills are the result of precise, calculated action which is part of what a coup de grâce entails.

The remake fixes that luck-based part of Coup de Grâce. Now, every critical strike that you make with the Phantom Assassin needs to be calculated and precise if you want it to work its magic. Killing is no longer based on luck, and the coup de grâce delivered will almost always be the timed and precise killing blow.

Balance Improvement

Currently, the skill gives a 1 critical for every 7 attacks made on average. This is how the remake compares with the skill.

Level 1: 7 attacks give a 2.75x multiplier.
Level 2: 7 attacks give a 3.45x multiplier.
Level 3: 7 attacks give a 4.15x multiplier.

I've basically given a slight buff to the skill's damage output in the earlier levels at the expense of the skill's potential at the later parts. Note that the skill scales exponentially because it becomes more effective as the Phantom Assassin attacks faster.

On that note, it also synergies very well with Phantom Strike due to the increased attack speed it gives.

If you find anything off with the numbers, please drop your comments. As of now, the numbers are still very raw.

Quote:
Is it really possible to control the number of hits that precisely late game particularly with her being transparent? This makes the ulti more interesting but I'm not sure if this is a buff/nerf/neither ^^ I like Mortred the way she is now. I don't want to keep calculating number of strikes she has made.
This problem can be worked around by making Blur's transparency activatable (activation stays on!). It also makes for a pretty visual effect.

Visual & Testmap

When Coup de Grâce is activated, Abilities\\Weapons\\ProcMissile\\ProcMissile.mdl is attached to her weapon for the duration of the bonus (2 seconds, or until she attacks). As the effect is removed when she uses her attack, it gives her weapon this nice glow effect thanks to its death animation.



You can find the testmap here.
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Last edited by Terresquall; 11-06-2010 at 01:44 AM.
Old 03-24-2010, 02:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

The numbers probably need to be buffed a bit. Mortred is kinda already in the low-end of awesomeness, and this is a nerf since you need to hit at least 9 times to get the 4x Crit her old ulti does(8 hits to charge to 4.2x, and the 9th hit to unleash it). while her old one will probably get her more than 1 crit in 9 attacks.

The concept is very attractive though, it reminds me of the DnD Assassins, who need to study their target for some time to get that imbawtf deathstrike. And I especially love how randomness is removed, Assassins aren't supposed to be random, they are supposed to be calculative and coordinated.

Maybe make the starting multiplier and +multiplier per hit higher. But make it multiplier reset when you attack a different target. This makes her a more 1-by-1 assassin since she builds up damage quickly as long as she's attacking one person. Maybe needs a cap since the build-up is faster now.

Or keep the current build-up but allow the buff to last more than 1 hit at the cost of its cooldown.
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
The numbers probably need to be buffed a bit. Mortred is kinda already in the low-end of awesomeness, and this is a nerf since you need to hit at least 9 times to get the 4x Crit her old ulti does(8 hits to charge to 4.2x, and the 9th hit to unleash it). while her old one will probably get her more than 1 crit in 9 attacks.

The concept is very attractive though, it reminds me of the DnD Assassins, who need to study their target for some time to get that imbawtf deathstrike. And I especially love how randomness is removed, Assassins aren't supposed to be random, they are supposed to be calculative and coordinated.

Maybe make the starting multiplier and +multiplier per hit higher. But make it multiplier reset when you attack a different target. This makes her a more 1-by-1 assassin since she builds up damage quickly as long as she's attacking one person. Maybe needs a cap since the build-up is faster now.

Or keep the current build-up but allow the buff to last more than 1 hit at the cost of its cooldown.
You have a point there. After reading your post I do think that the numbers are a little on the low side. Just one thing I want to point out though, I specifically did not want to make the multiplier apply only to one target because Troll's Fervor already works like that, and doing so for Coup would make the skill somewhat similar to that.

Nonetheless, thanks for the positive and thoughtful comments
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Very Nice

But would make Mortred even more imba?

I mean I could keep on attacking (Have low HP) activate Satanic
Active Ult
BAM Full Hp Plus cash

But might be ok just needs some tweaks
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Old 03-25-2010, 01:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Err, wasn't a multiplier of 1 doesn't change the damage at all? atleast start at 1.05 or 1.1 and even 1.25 multiplier -____-
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
But would make Mortred even more imba?

I mean I could keep on attacking (Have low HP) activate Satanic
Active Ult
BAM Full Hp Plus cash
That scenario is quite improbable. If you had low HP you'd probably be finished from chain disables and/or focus fire before you can charge up your ultimate to a signficant amount for the most part.

Moreover, while the whole point of the remake is actually to make the skill more reliable and fitting to the concept while keeping roughly the same damage output potential; actual balance can only be worked out with playtesting.

Quote:
Err, wasn't a multiplier of 1 doesn't change the damage at all? atleast start at 1.05 or 1.1 and even 1.25 multiplier -____-
It is supposed to be like that. The idea is that you have to build up your momentum from zero (i.e. 1x multiplier) all the way up to a big multiplier value, then finish off your wounded opponent with a beautiful coup de grace.
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Last edited by Terresquall; 03-27-2010 at 01:06 PM.
Old 03-27-2010, 03:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

I really like the concept behind the skill, however I don't think this really fits Mortred's playstyle.

Quote:
Level 1: 7 attacks give a 2.4x multiplier.
Level 2: 7 attacks give a 3.1x multiplier.
Level 3: 7 attacks give a 3.8x multiplier.
1) Those 7 attacks takes an eternity to accumulate (also bcoz Mortred focuses on raw damage and survivability items), even attacking an enemy creep/neutral would be annoying to start with.

2) It may be more reliable, but still multiplier wise it's underwhelming (7 attacks to deal 171 - 176 damage at level 6 w/out items).

Mortred's playstyle is having maneuverability in combat to pick out lone targets and quickly finish them of with huge crits, simply I don't see this synergistic enough.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

this spell gets remake suggestions all the time when its actually just fine as it is

o_O
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
I really like the concept behind the skill, however I don't think this really fits Mortred's playstyle.

Quote:
Quote:
Level 1: 7 attacks give a 2.4x multiplier.
Level 2: 7 attacks give a 3.1x multiplier.
Level 3: 7 attacks give a 3.8x multiplier.
1) Those 7 attacks takes an eternity to accumulate (also bcoz Mortred focuses on raw damage and survivability items), even attacking an enemy creep/neutral would be annoying to start with.

2) It may be more reliable, but still multiplier wise it's underwhelming (7 attacks to deal 171 - 176 damage at level 6 w/out items).

Mortred's playstyle is having maneuverability in combat to pick out lone targets and quickly finish them of with huge crits, simply I don't see this synergistic enough.
Instead of thinking of it as 1 crit in 7 attacks, think of it as having control over when you want ot crit. You can trigger your crit in about 4 attacks for a 2x to 3x crit if the enemy is weak, or you can stack up a huge x5 or x6 crit for larger, tankier targets or for prolonged fights.

The multiplier data is also wrong. It's actually alot better than what you have quoted. Apologies, as I got the numbers wrong in my initial post.

Mortred also still retains her manuevrability with this remake. She controls when and on who the crit comes out on, simply because she does not lose the critical stack when she changes targets. You can rack up stacks on a tank, and then move on to a weakened INT or AGI target in a clash midway. To me, that's plenty of manuevrability. You are more able to control when the weak, lone targets in the clash will die to your blade.

Finally, thank you for taking time to comment on this
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Is it really possible to control the number of hits that precisely late game particularly with her being transparent? This makes the ulti more interesting but I'm not sure if this is a buff/nerf/neither ^^ I like Mortred the way she is now. I don't want to keep calculating number of strikes she has made.

T-d.
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Old 04-07-2010, 11:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Is that codeable?
T-up, anyway, to change the overused Critical Strike.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

The skill is nice, balanced and more unique than before.

However, I think this skill is too complicated. It took me quite a long time to understand it completely....
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

The most interesting remake i have seen so far.But to me it seems that the most optimal damage dealing in a prolonged 1v1 fight is simply spamming the ultimate all the time.But you are able to direct the critical to the target you want, like you said build up on the bulky Roof and blink/one-shot Lina.I like the concept very much.Now we need some senseful remake of Blur and Mort becomes one of the most interesting heroes to play.
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

I.. overall do like the idea, but unfortunately many people don't know how to speed-count around here u.u

What about a slight remake from what you'd done?

Mortred would hit the target a certain amount of times; THEN release the critical strike for the Coup de Grâce.

Lv1: attacks the target 3 times. The last hit will have a x2.5 critical strike.
Lv2: attacks the target 4 times. The last hit will have a x3.5 critical strike.
Lv3: attacks the target 5 times. The last hit will have a x4.5 critical strike.

Cooldown and MP cost can be later discussed. The idea is that Mortred would hit the target several times, and finally set the (almost for sure :P) killing blow. The Coup de Grâce debuff on the target may last something like 3.5 seconds; so if mortred get's disabled or the target somehow evades the "combo-hitting", he'd save himself from the killing blow.
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Old 08-10-2010, 01:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-Up , nice .
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Current version of skill gives her +45% to OVERALL dmg on average, this is one of the strongest dmg increasing skills in the game. The lack of reliability is a part of balance.
You propose that she can go into battle with 100% probability of releasing ~4x critical, this is way overpowered.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

So I get to jungle for 6 seconds, blink to a caster and unload a 5x crit at will?

Yes please. Sounds fair.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-DOWN This skill is perfect as is. Ese skill es perfecto como es.
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Old 10-05-2010, 06:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
this spell gets remake suggestions all the time when its actually just fine as it is

o_O
I agree, I think we should more focus on heroes that really need an attention. Not this hero.

Edit; but kudos to OP btw, I know he is trying to make Dota a better game, same as a lot of us.
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

t-up too many boring passive crit skills in dota

and its not op es also has a 7s cd controllable 4x crit and this is much harder to get to 4x than totem
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Ok, T-UP.
But i think its better if mortred also crit like troll's fervor but for damage cap instead of attack speed. I guess "Each following hit deal more damage than the previous one but after some seconds damage cap is reset.
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Old 10-08-2010, 01:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

I like the idea of making her into an real assassin who has to calculate her actions and actually think and not be luck based, while still keeping the deadlines of her old skill.
Maybe she could use little change in numbers in some places, but the concept is awesome and would really enjoy to play her with this as her ultimate.
She is one of my favorite heroes in DotA and I want her to be more unique and interesting, this remake is what does the trick.
Still I just didn't quite understand this part: 'After an attack is carried out, or after 2 seconds pass from the activation of this skill, the multiplier bonus will be reset.'
Can you please explain it to me?
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Old 10-08-2010, 05:12 PM   #23
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-Null, since all this seems like is a scaling version of Fury Swipes.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

I like it, it has great synergy with blink strike but still IMO a bit too weak T-null for now.
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-Up.
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Old 10-09-2010, 02:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

So it's a critical on cooldown? No thanks. We already have one with Gondar. T-down
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenspleen View Post
So it's a critical on cooldown? No thanks. We already have one with Gondar. T-down
This one is way different and actually pays of to have a cooldown.
Not to mention that it has really nice synergy with Phantom Strike and that it could make her much stronger since she is an agility hero and makes people to actually think.
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Your suggestion is very nice style-wise, it fits the name very well

However game-style-wise I dunno. If you make it the same avg proc rate, then its imba cuz too reliable, if you decrease proc rate players won't like it cuz of dps loss :S

T-null.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:24 PM   #29
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

I really, REALLY like your idea. Your train of thought and everything, but imagine you as the enemy of a skilled Mortred with your suggested Coup de Grace. Could you stand a chance against a 1 hit = kill?
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Old 10-31-2010, 02:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
However game-style-wise I dunno. If you make it the same avg proc rate, then its imba cuz too reliable, if you decrease proc rate players won't like it cuz of dps loss :S
Quote:
I really, REALLY like your idea. Your train of thought and everything, but imagine you as the enemy of a skilled Mortred with your suggested Coup de Grace. Could you stand a chance against a 1 hit = kill?
The whole point of Coup de Grâce is dealing out a shitload of damage to targets to kill them off. If anything, the remake is more fair because its more predictable. You cannot prepare for or forsee a Mortred that deals 2 or 3 criticals of 4x in a row, but you can definitely tell if that enemy Mortred is building up for a big 6x or 7x critical with the new skill (and throw stuns her way to stop it). Instead of random chance, now the strength of the critical can be determined by how you manuevre the battlefield to stack up (or prevent that enemy Mortred from stacking up) criticals.
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Old 10-31-2010, 02:29 AM   #31
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-Up! Love it!
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Old 10-31-2010, 07:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-up.
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Old 10-31-2010, 08:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

yeah this one is good enough to eat...
but maybe we'll tweak Blurr for this cos we can't see when she'll attack and late game Mort attacks really fast.

Is it autocastable? so late game would be a 1.45% Crit on every other ATK.

Sweet.

I really wish this would be implemented. It's freaking awesome...
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Old 10-31-2010, 01:09 PM   #34
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Seems pretty good, although I think is better if you remove activation. Maybe make it like Kunka's Tidebringer, or once every "n" attacks.
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Old 11-01-2010, 02:57 AM   #35
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

come on people. Thumb this one up.
It's a great, well thought, and balanced skill.

no more to "wtf 3x crit, you better play lotto cos i'm on a Lucky streak"
no more to risking your thin HP when you blink in
no more to praying (finger's crossed) that you land 3 consecutive crit to kill that well farmed tank.

Mort is not a GAMBLER, she's an ASSASSIN.

Assassin's are meant to be CALCULATIVE, ADAPTABLE, SWIFT, and most of all...FATAL.

Let's t-up this one cos we won't regret it.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Well I agre that the skill will suit her well, but not an activable one...would be to much of a headache, each time you want to crit pressing on some button. T-up anyway.
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Old 11-01-2010, 12:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

Quote:
Originally Posted by RazorCrime View Post
Well I agre that the skill will suit her well, but not an activable one...would be to much of a headache, each time you want to crit pressing on some button. T-up anyway.
actually, activating fits way more in her style, cause you can actually choose when to deal the critical strike, and therefore terminating the target.


This remake couldn't be cooler. T-Up.
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Old 11-02-2010, 01:07 AM   #38
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

People, is it easy to understand my description of the skill? I see some of you have interpreted it differently from what I've described.

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Well I agre that the skill will suit her well, but not an activable one...would be to much of a headache, each time you want to crit pressing on some button. T-up anyway.
The whole point of this skill is that you build up your crits and choose when to execute them. By making it passive how do you choose when to release your built up crits? This skill isn't like Tidebringer or Jinada. It's completely different in concept.
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Old 11-02-2010, 02:33 AM   #39
arvinkasumi
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

The way you presented it is actually confusing for some... try a different approach...
maybe give some examples on how this would work...
i.e.

Mort attacking the creeps for 9 sec then blink stikes to Lina with a huge crit (after the blink strike's atk) but doesn't kill her... Mort perform 4x more attack to successfully kill her...
She tried to attack Brad but was stunned...she chase him up for 9 sec... at the 10th sec, she blink strikes again but landed no crit bonus cos she didn't attack anyone for 10 sec so there's nothing to stack...

Mort attacks Brad a few times Brad runs and stomp her at the 9 sec, she landed a weaker crit on the 10th sec cos of fewer Atks to stack...

basically, if you can't provide a good meaning, at least provide a good example...
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Old 11-02-2010, 04:18 AM   #40
Ultra_Rasengan
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Coup de Grâce

T-up assuming the current for x4 is if you are lucky and its too imba

The suggestion fits well
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