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Old 04-07-2010, 12:49 AM   #1
Pandawaffle
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Default Definition of a Carry


I know people have been debating what makes a carry since the dawn of conventional DotA, and I did see that thread about Lina serving as one, but this is unrelated: I think that most of the differing definitions of carry is because of differing levels of play, and I'm here to define what I think are the most popular.

Carry (P-DPS) : a carry is a physical damage dealer with at least 1 skill that increases their physical damage output. Heroes like Mortred would fall under this as would heroes like Sven. PotM would not, however, which is why many who apply to this definition define her as a semi-carry.

Carry (P-DPS+Farm) : any hero that when given a bunch of farm (and consequently items) serves as a physical damage dealer. PotM would fall under this category, in fact "any hero can carry" under this definition. Examples of this are those who build out Pit Lord or Alchemist (because of their farming) into high-tiered toe-to-toe fighters. Often time these "carries" occur when other heroes (that may be better fit for the role) are not available (this can occur because pub's do not draft teams with a goal in mind, or because a team is forced to counterpick-out their carry slot).

Carry (Influential): A hero that, with relatively team-independent actions, can have great, consistent, influence over decisive team fights. There is a bit of a contradiction in the definition, because some carries have very little influence over teamfights in early game, in which case they'd be considered "immature" carries (at that time). However, heroes like Rhasta or Necrolyte, who scale well throughout the game, are also in this definition of carry as well. The definition implies a leadership role that is often decided by the play of the hero throughout that game rather than a theoretical one. The carry in this case literally carries weaker heroes, that without the carry, would be unable to achieve victory. It's a very active definition: a good way to tell if a hero is a carry, according to this, is if you would consider the game "GG'ed" if the hero was ganked, without chance of buyback, before a teamfight.

These definitions are associated with lower-level play in my opinion, though are not necessarily so, because unconventional teams can push unconventional roles onto heroes. But I still say "more often lower-level" because the specialization is more often based on individual choice of how to play the hero instead of an orchestrated strategy in which it is decided during a draft or pre-game what heroes get what farm. Also, because in the very high level play (the competitive matches people watch on the Comp. Matches replay forum) most of the heroes are very optimized for their roles and you just don't ever see an Alchemist or Pit Lord running around with BFury's and Armlets.

Carry (DPS) : Any hero that is excellent at dealing damage, regardless of type, throughout the game. Necrolyte with old bloodstone, Rhasta with old Aghs are examples of this definition. The important thing about this definition is that it's about the potential of the hero instead of how they are built: You can have both a carry-Rhasta or a wardbitch-Rhasta.

Hard Carry : Heroes that are commonly seen to be played as physical damage dealers. This definition changes with version: Naix and Lycan had their days, as did Spectre and BB. This can be seen as a sub-category of the Carry (DPS), because when drafting a carry you often choose how you want them to scale in relation to your supports or vice-versa. This definition is a reflection of theory-craft in which a hero's potential role are optimized: people have found that CM is best played as a support/warder and Sladar as a Hard Carry because he makes the most of the gold put into him (after a certain amount, of course). This can be a sub-category of "Carry (DPS)," but is important to differentiate because of the active, in-game-role, classification.

Carry (Competitive/Farm+not support) : I will spend quite a bit of time on this definition, because I believe it to be the most useful. Under this definition a carry is a hero that is strategically chosen to accumulate a large share of the resources under the team's map control. Obviously the degrees to how much will vary, so it is more of a percentage time relative to the support/wandering heroes in that game in which these "carries" spend in-lane or jungling. Often these heroes are optimized for their role whatever that role may be. That "whatever" means that a Sand King can be a carry and not be valued for his auto-attack in doing so. The optimized is more of a practical understanding of the definition, in that, according to version, heroes are often put in a role because the hero "makes the most" of the gold given to them to achieve their role. For instance: you give a Centaur Blink, a Hood and Treads he is quite intimidating, but a Sladar with the same items is much more useful in various strategic decisions. Now, if you are drafting (it's very important for this definition that you are organizedly choosing every hero) and you need a physical damage dealer or a scaling damage dealer you will pick Sladar over Centaur because Sladar with a certain item build is considered "optimized" for that role, while Centaur is not. Obviously heroes fill more than one role: like how Spectre is both a counter-initiator and a physical damage dealer, this definition ignores how often these roles are important to a team across games and pays attention to what the makeup of the team will be at what stage of farm and how that role effects teamfights in that game. It IS TRUE that most often the heroes that are given the most gold are those who are believed to be able to deal the most damage with the gold, but other heroes, for instance Tinker, can be valued enough to warrant a massive amount of farm, but to chain-disable instead of spam his nukes (obviously he CAN do both, but one can have a strategy in which he spends his time doing the disabling over the nukes). It is merely a function of how the game works (through killing things) that damage is most often valued. If Dazzle's heal had 0 cooldown, but did not damage, he would be given a huge amount of gold in order to spam it, and still be considered a carry. Lion with a Blink and Sheepstick, or WLock with an Urn, Mek and Pipe may be more tangible examples of how heroes, by this strategic definition are considered "carries."
Because of the dynamic nature of this, heroes can fall in and out of "carry" during a game. Let's say you play a PotM/SK lane and decide to have PotM defer most all of the CS to SK, while spending most of her time flanking to harass and to try for stuns. SK, at this point, will be a carry because he is being given the resources and is expected to serve a primary initiating purpose because of the gold. Let's say he get's his blink, bottle, treads etc by X minutes and then it is shifted that PotM will now take all of the gold she can (farming somewhere, obviously the laning stage has ended) to become a pusher/DPSer with Manta style, BKB and Butterfly. She will then have started to become a carry, while if SK then devotes to pure ganking, he will have fallen out of carry. That same example of PotM and SK (This is Sand King btw, for those of you who are not acquainted with common competitive lanes) serves to show that this defonition is also determined by "time spent in lane," as opposed to wandering, warding, risking oneself (like a CM checking the forest to see if a gank is coming on her babysat lane hero) or any other activity that needs to be done. It is a commonality of speech that you might not want to "Let Hero X farm, because then they can carry." This definition is very much tailored to how one assess teamfight situations and general game planning and focuses upon the function of each hero. I think it is the best definition for strategic thought, though that does not necessarily mean it is the most popular definition of "carry."

The forum disagrees on the definition of carry a lot, and gets in disagreements because of differing use of language. I would suggest that if you are to use "carry" in your post to give a short definition, whether it be one that I listed here, a combination, or a new definition, it really doesn't matter, just so long as you are clear.
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Old 04-07-2010, 12:56 AM   #2
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Either it is the new kind of trolling or just full of bullshit.
It hurts my eyes, a lot.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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Your post is too long and i CBA to read it but this is the general form of carrying:

You are a massive influence in a given game. This is often depicted as whoever has a massive influence in fights. Late game it is often carry heroes while earlygame a good SK player can carry even rehabs through fights with multi stuns and a good ult. A support player who totally controls the map could be thought of as a carry in the sense that they shut down the other team.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:17 AM   #4
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Good work but no one will read your post because too long and topic done over 9000 times.

You need to make post more short less long.

If you try sound smart noone listen to you. People like to read things in own level so try make your post more short and sound more dumb.

Carry is hero that can 1v5 late game if farm good.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:22 AM   #5
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Your post is too long. I don't want to read it.

My definition of a carry is a hero who carries the team late game, like Kobe Bryant in basketball.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:33 AM   #6
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I would define a carry as a hero who employs the use of attack modifiers such as CRIT or ORB EFFECTS to aid in either a defnesive or offensive manner (e.g Defensive=LifeSteal, offensive = deso) to eliminate enemies. To further explain attack modifiers, I mean anything (usually skills) that alters the natural attack in terms of damage, effect, or amount of HP restored. For example, cleave alters the natural attack because it allows you to hit multiple targets at once. Feedback ASAP.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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A carry is someone in a game with easily visible achievement to the general public.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UTDC.Justin View Post
A carry is someone in a game with easily visible achievement to the general public.
Best carry definition ever given.
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Old 04-07-2010, 01:43 AM   #9
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Wow that is one long post won't read...

Here is who a carry is: It is someone who can bring his team to victory therefore "carry" the game.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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:P I didn't know people who would devote an hour to a single game wouldnt read for 4 minutes. And Justin's definition is interesting. What's nice to see is that I at least listed the definitions people are saying (except for Justins, I hadn't heard that one before).
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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Carry is the hero who can benefit most from the most farm.

Anyone else who has been trying to classify all different sorts of carries are besmirching the traditional word. Come up with a new word for your "influential carry".
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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I read it. Interesting read, and I agree for the most part.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:57 AM   #13
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I read it and it actually makes sense. You guys are making yourself sound dumb not to read something when its too long. So short and stupid threads works for you all?

And i give credit to his trolling if he is trolling as he does such a great job at it i cant even differentiate if its a real troll or not.

@NoobKiller, can you use your real account to post here instead of acting like a retard on an alt? Ran out of ideas for your own troll threads and come troll others?

Overall the thread has pretty much covered, however the OP should spend time into researching other areas of dota that will prove to be more helpful rather then the definition of carry.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:02 AM   #14
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Yeah man you gotta shorten and summarize your thread, are you making a book or somethin...
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Your post is too long and i CBA to read it but this is the general form of carrying:

You are a massive influence in a given game. This is often depicted as whoever has a massive influence in fights. Late game it is often carry heroes while earlygame a good SK player can carry even rehabs through fights with multi stuns and a good ult. A support player who totally controls the map could be thought of as a carry in the sense that they shut down the other team.
I am sorry but I did not read your post, It so long.

For me it's this guy's post. ^

EDIT: Added "I am..."
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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Pretty interesting read. Even though it was a wall of text, he placed some effort to it and i appreciate that.

For me a carry is someone who can bring the team to victory when he is given enough tender loving care by his/her team.
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay.J View Post
I read it. Interesting read, and I agree for the most part.
^^
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:28 AM   #18
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next time make it short, its too long. carry means a hero which can bring the team to victory (eg: nevermore get well built up item and get his team to victory).
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:21 AM   #19
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Default Re: Definition of a Carry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N00BKILLER12345 View Post
You need to make post more short less long.

Carry is hero that can 1v5 late game if farm good.
Actually, I almost wholeheartedly agree with this.
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:44 AM   #20
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WHO CARES. You play whatever way that helps your team win.
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Old 04-07-2010, 08:23 AM   #21
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I liked it, nice to read and makes sense.
Too bad lot of forumers have the attention span of a potatoe.
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:25 AM   #22
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:35 AM   #23
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YAWN. Those text are really hurting ma eyes. Carries are heroes that can win the game for you. simple is as that
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Old 04-07-2010, 09:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinisterz View Post
^^LoL

OT :
Carry heroes are those that Carry your team to victory.They are the heroes you can point at and say,"We won because of you" or "You are going to make us win".
Is that simple enough to understand?
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:19 PM   #25
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A carry in the traditional sense has to have killing power and survivability with farm. Your idea that a carry is someone with map control is absurd. And you don't need a name for the 'influential carry', it's called 'support'

basically
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Either it is the new kind of trolling or just full of bullshit.
It hurts my eyes, a lot.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:40 PM   #26
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Exactly. Carries are heroes that the heroes that initiators initiate for, supporters support, and gankers assist. They usually have steroids (Clinkz, Troll), DPS (PA, Slardar), farming skills (PotM, SF), or survival/escape mechanisms (Storm, SA).
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Old 04-07-2010, 04:13 PM   #27
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I read, fully understood and pretty much agree with it.

And to make certain people read your post, you should do some demonstation. One or two more colours won't hurt, and a few picture too. People don't want to read a wall of text because it's long; but a longer wall of text and pic, yeah they do.
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Old 04-07-2010, 05:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
Your post is too long. I don't want to read it.

My definition of a carry is a hero who carries the team late game, like Kobe Bryant in basketball.
Your attention span is too short.
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Old 04-07-2010, 06:51 PM   #29
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I stand corrected
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Old 04-07-2010, 07:44 PM   #30
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...
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Last edited by fr0zenknife; 06-04-2010 at 04:40 PM.
Old 04-08-2010, 02:42 AM   #31
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interesting philosophical discourse
it is clear that the carry is the most influential hero, almost always by means of overpowering physical dps, but game changing support in the form of rhasta for example could definitely "carry" a game
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Old 04-08-2010, 02:47 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fr0zenknife View Post
tl;dr
cool story, bro
riverting tale, chap
Useless post much.

OT: I completely agree with the different definitions of a carry. You should make this into mini guide or something, cause I know a lot of noobs don't know what a carry is, even though they play them 99% of the time. I know I didn't when I started.
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Old 04-08-2010, 05:19 AM   #33
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This thread is a good example of the general public. To fucking lazy to read, therefor you is troll. Or To fucking lazy to read, wait why am I in this thread.
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Old 04-08-2010, 10:56 AM   #34
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I think all definitions are wrong. That's because there isn't certain heroes that are carries , and certain heroes that are not. All heroes are CARRIES (they can effectively carry a game). It's just that there are some heroes that do it better than others. How much of a carry a hero is is determined by some abilities , which are :
1)The ability to farm fast (see SF , although he doesnt have scaling skills he is a carry)
2)MOBILITY. Although this belongs in the 1st as well ,since being mobile means more farm and more escapes...
3)The ability to use that farm better than other heroes, which comes down to having steroids or/and scaling skills and or strong disables. (rhasta has strong disables, void has scaling skills , SF has steroids)
4)The ability to survive in the hardest of situations , either via having escape mechanisms or a survivability passive (see backtrack , blinks , bristleback etc.)

There are probably two or three more things that determine how good of a carry a hero is. I put those 3 in a certain order , which means farm > scaling / steroids > escape mechs. This categorize clearly means that EVERY hero can carry , but there are heroes that do it better. For example , a hero who belongs to all 3 of these categories is a 10/10 carry, a hero that have 2 of these is a 6.5/10 carry etc.
Now what does that mean? Lets look at Lion, who is a supporter. Lion cant farm fast , so he doesnt have the strongest ability that carry needs. He doesnt have any scaling or steroids either , but he possess great disables and burst dmg. Giving him refresher / agha / guinsoos/dagon makes him a crazy ass carry , since he can disable all 5 of the enemy's heroes , instapown two and leave to tell the tale.

So , imo , carry isnt a category of heroes , like gankers / dpsers / disablers are. Its a whole other concept , and every hero has it. Its exactly like supporteres , every hero can do it but some are better than these.. For example , you cant call Pudge a dpser cause he cant dps no matter what. So he is totally out of that category. But he belongs in the carry category as any other hero does... so , again IMO , if you want to categorize a hero make it like that

Lina : ganker / 5 out of 10 carry (she can farm fast and she has a steroid) / 7 out of 10 supporter (since she can live without items and can still be effective)

SF : dpser / 8 out of 10 carry / 3 out of 10 supporter

Lion : disabler and ganker / 3 out of 10 carry / 10 out of 10 supporter

Rhasta : disabler semi ganker / 6 out of 10 carry / 7 out of 10 supporter
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Old 04-08-2010, 11:52 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandawaffle View Post
:P I didn't know people who would devote an hour to a single game wouldnt read for 4 minutes. And Justin's definition is interesting. What's nice to see is that I at least listed the definitions people are saying (except for Justins, I hadn't heard that one before).
people on the internets have the attention-span of a-
Oh look, a cat!!
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Old 04-08-2010, 03:39 PM   #36
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I think all definitions are wrong. That's because there isn't certain heroes that are carries , and certain heroes that are not. All heroes are CARRIES (they can effectively carry a game). It's just that there are some heroes that do it better than others. How much of a carry a hero is is determined by some abilities , which are :
1)The ability to farm fast (see SF , although he doesnt have scaling skills he is a carry)
2)MOBILITY. Although this belongs in the 1st as well ,since being mobile means more farm and more escapes...
3)The ability to use that farm better than other heroes, which comes down to having steroids or/and scaling skills and or strong disables. (rhasta has strong disables, void has scaling skills , SF has steroids)
4)The ability to survive in the hardest of situations , either via having escape mechanisms or a survivability passive (see backtrack , blinks , bristleback etc.)

There are probably two or three more things that determine how good of a carry a hero is. I put those 3 in a certain order , which means farm > scaling / steroids > escape mechs. This categorize clearly means that EVERY hero can carry , but there are heroes that do it better. For example , a hero who belongs to all 3 of these categories is a 10/10 carry, a hero that have 2 of these is a 6.5/10 carry etc.
Now what does that mean? Lets look at Lion, who is a supporter. Lion cant farm fast , so he doesnt have the strongest ability that carry needs. He doesnt have any scaling or steroids either , but he possess great disables and burst dmg. Giving him refresher / agha / guinsoos/dagon makes him a crazy ass carry , since he can disable all 5 of the enemy's heroes , instapown two and leave to tell the tale.

So , imo , carry isnt a category of heroes , like gankers / dpsers / disablers are. Its a whole other concept , and every hero has it. Its exactly like supporteres , every hero can do it but some are better than these.. For example , you cant call Pudge a dpser cause he cant dps no matter what. So he is totally out of that category. But he belongs in the carry category as any other hero does... so , again IMO , if you want to categorize a hero make it like that

Lina : ganker / 5 out of 10 carry (she can farm fast and she has a steroid) / 7 out of 10 supporter (since she can live without items and can still be effective)

SF : dpser / 8 out of 10 carry / 3 out of 10 supporter

Lion : disabler and ganker / 3 out of 10 carry / 10 out of 10 supporter

Rhasta : disabler semi ganker / 6 out of 10 carry / 7 out of 10 supporter
Carry should be defined as someone who knows when to accept a tower loss and farm and when to actually defend/gank.
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