[ABILITY/BUFF] Goblin's Greed Remake

[thoby123]

Been thinking about a suitable remake for Goblin's Greed, as IMO it's a very sub-par skill and lacks that punch needed to make it more useful than stats (especially on Alchemist). I also don't like the concept of killing more units in a short span of time to get additional gold; prefer straightforward gold bonuses.

PLEASE READ:
On 02/03/10: It's been a very long time since I last looked at this suggestion, and now... Alch doesn't really need this. He's very competent by himself, people just need to know how to use him well (hence the currently outdated guide by me )

Don't close this just yet, I'd still like to think through a minor buff that would make the skill more useful without throwing balance out the window.

Tell me what you bunch think of this idea:


Goblin's Greed
Whenever the Alchemist kills an enemy unit he transmutes part of its body into valuable metals, gaining gold equal to a percentage of its original bounty. Only a maximum of 40 bonus gold can be obtained.
Level 1: 10% bounty added to gold.
Level 2: 15% bounty added to gold.
Level 3: 20% bounty added to gold.
Level 4: 25% bounty added to gold.

For example, if a creep normally gives a 50 gold bounty and the Alchemist kills it, he gets 50 gold plus additional gold dependant on Greed level. At level 4, you would get 12.5 rounded to 13 extra gold, which is added to your bounty to make the total goldgain 63.

Quoted for truth:

Originally Posted by ~Maktor~

it works like trasmute: "STRONGA UR ENEMY, BETTA UR GOLD!"

A comparison for the skeptics to show this is a buff:
Current Greed:
Lane-creeps (average bounty 40): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Medium jungle-creeps (average total bounty 60): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Hard jungle-creeps (average total bounty 100): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Ancients (average bounty 160): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Heroes (base bounty 200): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Roshan (average bounty 250): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)

...you see the problem. In order to get a decent bonus per unit, you need to kill several units beforehand. And even then, the cap makes your efforts be worthless after a certain point in time.

Suggested Greed:
Lane-creeps (average bounty 40): 3/5/8/10
Medium jungle-creeps (average total bounty 60): 6/9/12/15
Hard jungle-creeps (average total bounty 100): 10/15/20/25
Ancients (average total bounty 160): 16/24/30/36
Heroes (base bounty 200): 13/25/38/50
Roshan (average bounty 250): 25/38/50/63
(all values rounded)

Here, the bonuses are much higher and are proportional to the difficulty of the unit. It encourages controlled farming as you will get the same bonus for each creep killed no matter when you kill it. Lane-creeps will give about the same amount of bonus cash, but the harder creeps give more (as they rightfully should). Assuming Alch can manage to bring down the harder enemies, he gets bigger, heftier rewards.

The main point of this remake is to remove the emphasis from farming lanes quickly to get as much gold as possible, hereby making the skill more effective as you'll always gain a decent amount of gold.
Another especially important fact is that since the bounty of a unit is dependant on its overall difficulty, goldgain will essentially be based upon your enemy's strength. This leads to a more exponential gold pattern; at first you can only tackle lanecreeps, so the bonuses are light. But this quickly becomes bigger and bigger as the items you buy using that cash allow you to kill Ancients and such.
This will also work for heroes, making killing very profitable. Adding on another 50 gold to a bounty is sweet

Numbers can be changed, but feedback on the concept please!

[Mono]

but this takes away the entire concept of killing consecutively to get more gold. the whole point is he was able to make alot of gold off weak little creeps, now to get a decent bonus he has to kill tough creeps which he already has a problem with? Seems like more of a nerf to me

[thoby123]

That's entirely the point; the extra gold is dependant on your foe's strength. You can't take on harder enemies (eg. Ancients) so start smaller with lane creeps. Once you get the equipment to slay Ancients take those on, get a 25% bonus to their bounty... it's a quite exponential gain-rate.
You get fairly minor bonuses with the current Greed since there's a cap of 18, and you might not even reach that thanks to smaller pushes...
Also keep in mind this will work for hero bounties as well. That 200 base gold gets raised to 250 at level 4 greed, and that's only basic bounty.

[qlq]

http://www.playdota.com/forums/16222...goblins-greed/

I suggested something similar to this. It received absolutely zero feedback. GL on this though, support.

[Gheizen64]

The problem is goblin greed has gone thru a lot of remake and rebalance. Changing it again isn't what icefrog want. Probably this kind of skill for extra gold is going to be removed altogether in one of the next new version and Alchemist is going to be reworked completely.

Also, plain percent increase are bad for reason already stated : o

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by Dead Vigilante

http://www.playdota.com/forums/16222...goblins-greed/

I suggested something similar to this. It received absolutely zero feedback. GL on this though, support.

Haha bit harsh to say no feedback at all right?
I like yours too, though I'd rather more a more active skill. Hence this.

Originally Posted by Gheizen64

The problem is goblin greed has gone thru a lot of remake and rebalance. Changing it again isn't what icefrog want. Probably this kind of skill for extra gold is going to be removed altogether in one of the next new version and Alchemist is going to be reworked completely.

Also, plain percent increase are bad for reason already stated : o

The old Greed used the exact same mechanic as now, just with no cap and higher numbers... obviously OP. Now it's fairly meh, with Alch being very weak skilling Greed early, and with little overall effects. If skilled late, it doesn't do its job well -providing Alch with the killer items he badly needs.
This remake aims to address that problem. The goldgain is independant of how many units you've killed, so you'll always get a decent amount.

I would strongly disagree with an Alch rework, but if so there's always the chance something like this might get added in

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by thoby123

That's entirely the point; the extra gold is dependant on your foe's strength. You can't take on harder enemies (eg. Ancients) so start smaller with lane creeps. Once you get the equipment to slay Ancients take those on, get a 25% bonus to their bounty... it's a quite exponential gain-rate.
You get fairly minor bonuses with the current Greed since there's a cap of 18, and you might not even reach that thanks to smaller pushes...
Also keep in mind this will work for hero bounties as well. That 200 base gold gets raised to 250 at level 4 greed, and that's only basic bounty.

But you all guys forget the current GG need to be at least level 3 or 4,because noone is going to let you farm in the lane 10 straight creeps ~_~

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by Kasad

But you all guys forget the current GG need to be at least level 3 or 4,because noone is going to let you farm in the lane 10 straight creeps ~_~

is this agreeing/disagreeing with what I said?
Anyways yeah, I don't think the idea of starting with low bonuses and increasing with creeps killed is effective, especially for someone with such a low base attack damage as Alch.

[Redeemed A.I.]

I'm null with the suggestion.I'd be more than glad to t you up if you manage to give us a gold table

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by Kasad

I'm null with the suggestion.I'd be more than glad to t you up if you manage to give us a gold table

Erm not sure what you mean by a 'gold table'; gonna assume you mean how much gold you'd gain with the current and suggested Greed.

Current Greed:
Lane-creeps (average bounty 40): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Medium jungle-creeps (average total bounty 60): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Hard jungle-creeps (average total bounty 100): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Ancients (average bounty 160): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Heroes (base bounty 200): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)
Roshan (average bounty 250): 2/4/6/8 + (2 x number of units killed in past 18 seconds)

...you see the problem. In order to get a decent bonus per unit, you need to kill several units beforehand. And even then, the cap makes your efforts be worthless after a certain point in time.

Suggested Greed:
Lane-creeps (average bounty 40): 3/5/8/10
Medium jungle-creeps (average total bounty 60): 6/9/12/15
Hard jungle-creeps (average total bounty 100): 10/15/20/25
Ancients (average total bounty 160): 16/24/30/36
Heroes (base bounty 200): 13/25/38/50
Roshan (average bounty 250): 25/38/50/63
(all values rounded)

Here, the bonuses are much higher and are proportional to the difficulty of the unit. It encourages controlled farming as you will get the same bonus for each creep killed no matter when you kill it. Lane-creeps will give about the same amount of bonus cash, but the harder creeps give more (as they rightfully should). Assuming Alch can manage to bring down the harder enemies, he gets bigger, heftier rewards.

[Cybertwin]

maybe give a gold cap to make it balanced? like 10/20/30/40 gold cap.

[thoby123]

Sounds fair enough. top post edited.

[[A0D]-Morbid]

My opinion relating to this idea contained within feedback posted on your guide :P

[Akiyo]

Thumbs up to this awesome buff, i'd like to see it implemented, maybe then Alchemist can see some competitive play.

[JJSawry]

Originally Posted by thoby123

Anyways yeah, I don't think the idea of starting with low bonuses and increasing with creeps killed is effective, especially for someone with such a low base attack damage as Alch.

Well, i guess you're wrong here. First off, Alche is pretty much balanced right now, he does make a superb cannon-fodder, can be a downright ANIMAL if farmed properly, and here I get to my point: last hitting properly, thus farming well is what makes or brakes this hero. I do agree, he'll probably be totaly reworked soon, but it's been quite a while since he's been changed, doesn't that say anything?
T-Down, this may move him into the powerhouse, being able again to outfarm the whole enemy team, but that's not balance in any way.

“Care for a cocktail?”

Just noticed the 40 gold cap. Supposing that means 40 gold max/unit killed, that's not really a cap, it will cut on bonus gold only on heroes and roshan.
Thus, you propose a straightforward 25% in gold farmed through the game.
Also, from what I remember, a BF on the current Alchem will cut on his farming abilities, as he will only get bonus gold from one creep killed on every swing, which seems actually fair. Will this new Greed work the same?

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by JJSawry

Well, i guess you're wrong here. First off, Alche is pretty much balanced right now, he does make a superb cannon-fodder, can be a downright ANIMAL if farmed properly, and here I get to my point: last hitting properly, thus farming well is what makes or brakes this hero. I do agree, he'll probably be totaly reworked soon, but it's been quite a while since he's been changed, doesn't that say anything?
T-Down, this may move him into the powerhouse, being able again to outfarm the whole enemy team, but that's not balance in any way.

Really this suggestion is all about making Greed more useful from the get-go. Currently in order to utilise it to the fullest, an Alch must let creepwaves build-up, or run incredibly quickly through the jungle in order to keep the counter up. Both these tactics have severe drawbacks; letting a push build can be capitalised upon by the enemy, and using the jungle steals farm from your other, more effective carries. Even after all that effort, the extra gold is hardly gamebreaking and does not provide enough of an incentive to sacrifice time into ricing/points into Greed on such a stats-deficient hero.

Originally Posted by JJSawry

Just noticed the 40 gold cap. Supposing that means 40 gold max/unit killed, that's not really a cap, it will cut on bonus gold only on heroes and roshan.
Thus, you propose a straightforward 25% in gold farmed through the game.

Entirely the point. Someone in this thread (can't remember who ) suggested the cap so you don't gain imba amounts of gold, which is fair enough.
Of course, that 25% number can change. Also bear in mind you'll need to invest points into Greed in order to start gaining these bonuses, so it's balanced enough IMO.

Originally Posted by JJSawry

Also, from what I remember, a BF on the current Alchem will cut on his farming abilities, as he will only get bonus gold from one creep killed on every swing, which seems actually fair. Will this new Greed work the same?

Erm no, Greed works correctly with cleave and will give extra gold accordingly for units killed by its damage. And yes this suggestion would have the same effect.

[JJSawry]

If you're sure that Greed works in conjunction with BF, then there's a problem with it not showing the bonus gold, try it.

Instead of this proposal, I'd prefer a different buff to Greed. Let the count keep going on denies, and also get only Greed-related gold from denies.

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by JJSawry

If you're sure that Greed works in conjunction with BF, then there's a problem with it not showing the bonus gold, try it.

It does show, but the text gets horribly obscured by the multiple 'bounty' popups.

Originally Posted by JJSawry

Instead of this proposal, I'd prefer a different buff to Greed. Let the count keep going on denies, and also get only Greed-related gold from denies.

Yeah several people made that suggestion in the balance debate thread. Also good, but I just feel the shift from farming multiple units fast to a more straightforward bounty booster will be much more useful

[~Maktor~]

it works like trasmute: "STRONGA UR ENEMY, BETTA UR GOLD!"

t-up

[thoby123]

Originally Posted by ~Maktor~

it works like trasmute: "STRONGA UR ENEMY, BETTA UR GOLD!"

Great comparison! Added to OP, and thanks for the support