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Old 04-18-2010, 10:33 PM   #1
Heelz
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Default [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2




Hi, folks. A while back, I posted my idea to fix Geminate Attack into something better, more reliable, and more fun. Since Weaver has recently acquired a new skill, The Swarm, which I particularly like, my interest in him has been renewed.

My proposed buff would make Weaver one of the most enjoyable heroes for me, as the only problem I have with him is his passive skill, Geminate Attack. Currently, it's boring, clunky, and severely limits his item choices.

It's boring because it is essentially a 2x crit with a cooldown. In the long run, it's inferior to the criticals that other heroes have, because it's counterproductive with faster attack speed. It's clunky due to its mechanics being based off Orb of Slow, working only on ordered attacks. It's buggy when attacking to break out of Shukuchi, which can cost an early game kill. Finally, its status as an orb effect severely limits Weaver's choice of items. Other heroes with this limitation at least boast powerful orbs: Ursa, Broodmother, even Antimage.

I believe that Weaver is meant to be the epitome of a glass cannon. His skills are focused toward dealing lot of damage while preserving his fragile hp. Strong survival skills are balanced out by having some of the worst stats in the game.

My proposed remake of Geminate Attack would retain the double attack nature of the original, open up an orb slot, operate more smoothly, and generally be more useful through the addition of a subskill. Additionally, it fits the lore of Weaver's character much better.

Quote:
Current Geminate Attack

Occasionally the Nerubian Weaver will send out two swarms, attacking an opponent twice. You must do an ordered attack to activate this.

Level 1 - 6 second cooldown
Level 2 - 5 second cooldown
Level 3 - 4 second cooldown
Level 4 - 2.5 second cooldown

Passive

• Geminate Attack is an Orb Effect.
• The extra attack will never trigger attack effects (orb effects, bash and critical strike).
• Nerubian Weaver needs an attack order for this ability to activate.
• The attack in which this skill procs is considered an Orb Effect Buff Placer, while the bonus attack is considered only an Orb Effect.
• Can affect towers.
Quote:
New Geminate Attack

Occasionally, the Nerubian Weaver will call his future self to aid him in attacking. The visage will appear on the opposite side of his target and attack once. After attacking, the visage remains in the present time for 2 seconds, during which the Weaver can instantly swap locations with it.

Level 1 - 6 second cooldown
Level 2 - 5 second cooldown
Level 3 - 4 second cooldown
Level 4 - 3 second cooldown

Passive

•The visage is the same level as Weaver, has the same items, can trigger item effects, and is invulnerable and untargetable.
•The visage does not have any buffs Weaver might have when attacking.
Quote:
Subskill - Time Inversion

Instantly swap locations with your future self.

Mana Cost: 40
Cooldown: none 3
So basically, the new Geminate Attack gets rid of the current Orb of Slow-based attack for a completely new skill. When Weaver attacks, the future Weaver is created on the exact opposite side of the target, the same distance away, and attacks once. After one attack, it will stay in the same spot for 2 seconds, leaving time for you to swap locations with it if you decide to.

The image is uncontrollable, unclickable, with no pathing. It has the appearance of a Banished unit, so that people can identify the real Weaver, as well as appearing like it is from the future. Its damage is determined by Weaver's level and items, essentially the same except for any damage buffs Weaver might have. It can even proc item effects, like Chain Lightning, crit, and MKB.

Time Inversion adds a new chasing option to Weaver's arsenal, playing on Weaver's strength of maneuverability. Swapping locations puts you on the opposite side of your target, allowing you to chase and move in and out of battle with ease. Combined with Shukuchi, Weaver becomes the ultimate chaser.

You might say giving Weaver more maneuverability would be imba. Well, I don't think adding a pseudo-teleport skill would make him imbalanced. One thing to note is that swapping won't evade spells or attacks like Blink. You're still reliant on well-timed Shukuchis to avoid spells. Also, Weaver is one of the most fragile heroes in the game, which gives him the right to have so many skills geared toward survivability. Disables, even soft ones like Silence, cripple him tremendously. And once someone buys a gem, Weaver loses a huge amount of survivability from Shukuchi. His intelligence is also not very high, so unwatched use of Shukuchi and Time Inversion may leave Weaver far inside enemy territory without any mana to escape. Also keep in mind that Weaver might be a great chaser, but his allies take some time to catch up.

To sum it up, this new skill will open up Weaver's item options by allowing orbs. It will also be a more reliable double damage skill due to the attacks happening simultaneously and being triggered rather than based on Orb of Slow. Finally, it will give Weaver more chasing options than "follow them with Shukuchi".




Orbs?! On MY Weaver?
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Last edited by Heelz; 09-02-2010 at 05:31 AM.
Old 04-18-2010, 10:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Cool !
T-up
that would be fun
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

I have a few concerns. I do like the concept though, but there are some issues at hand. Would it be too powerful considering not only can you warp to the other location but the fact that the original was both an orb, and the secondary attack never had a chance to do the criticals, bash, maelstrom etc where as this can?
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Yes!!
Full support
t-up
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-up great suggestion. It gives him more maneuverability and chaos in the battlefield. I always felt restricted in item builds because of the orb and it messing with triggered attacks. Used skillfully, this could be another escape mechanism. Hope Ice Frog takes a look at this.
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

cool idea, T-up
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Old 04-19-2010, 04:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

He's already super mobile, I don't think the additional teleport is necessary. Since I've already suggested the other part:

T-up on orbs affecting both attacks
T-down to the pseudo blink
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Old 04-19-2010, 10:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

A really great idea, btw i think for balance reason make this skill as an orb
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-up is obvious. I will bump this whenever I see it, since... well... it's THE best weaver improvement I ever seen for a good while now.
Work on the layout of the suggestion, try to be more concise - try to seperate discussion of "why" from the "solution" and "why these and not other solutions".
Make a 2nd map that would make it an orb effect after all - just in case people would mind the balance issues.

And do mention that the banished weaver does not plant orb effects/percentage-chance strikes) on target. (Or does it? it would be a bit lame if it did - you know, bash etc. - better if it was removed if that's the case)

Change mana cost of Time inversion to 60 since 800 distance is more or less how much you get by walking with Shukuchi on. And give it a cooldown of 10 seconds constant.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:21 AM   #10
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Would be nice, except that Weaver is already mobile enough as is, so T-d only on that part.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
Would be nice, except that Weaver is already mobile enough as is, so T-d only on that part.
Given some cooldown, it wouldn't hurt to have something in stock when your invisibility is countered.

If the warp would be removed, it would be best if the banished unit would become a short-lasting image. For the confusion, at least.
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

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Old 04-23-2010, 09:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-up for the idea, but only the visual though.

The swapping makes you the ideal chaser, no hero, none at all, can get away from you when it's implemented. Even Magina is going to have problems. I suggest decreasing the range of the visual clone, for a blink (only in distance) plus shukuchi looks like blinkdagger on venge :P
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:11 AM   #14
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T - Up. Its impossible to miss with such great concept of remake. Warp together with Sukuchi will definitely make Weaver a better pick as a chaser/ganker.

PS : I really like your TB remake too!!
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:34 AM   #15
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

As I said b4, T-Up on the idea but T-D on Time Inversion...
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Damn. This is the best buff that Ive seen to weaver. It's extremely fun and synergises with everythig( swarm+Geminate+attackx2+shukuchi+get on another side+geminate again+teleport=chaos ) HUGE T-UP!!
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Wow so cool hope this will be implented t-up
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmTheSpoon View Post
Given some cooldown, it wouldn't hurt to have something in stock when your invisibility is countered.
Time Lapse will need a cd nerf with this.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

You know, that's just perfect... ;*
Huge T-up!
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Old 04-23-2010, 09:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Great sugestion. Only one thing:
You attack someone in front of a cliff. "Future self" appears on it, you cast Time Inversion and now ... you are stucked on a cliff.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

It`s good idea - T-up
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:30 AM   #22
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cainer View Post
Great sugestion. Only one thing:
You attack someone in front of a cliff. "Future self" appears on it, you cast Time Inversion and now ... you are stucked on a cliff.
Images showing up only on passable terrain is codable imo. Even then, you can time lapse back ^^

I wonder though if the miss chance via cliffs(25% to miss uphill) applies to the banished weaver.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

GREAT T-UP.
It's perfect.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:20 PM   #24
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Quote:
The image is uncontrollable, unclickable, with no pathing. It has the appearance of a Banished unit, so that people can identify the real Weaver, as well as appearing like it is from the future. Its damage is determined by Weaver's level and items, essentially the same except for any damage buffs Weaver might have. It can even proc item effects, like Chain Lightning, crit, and MKB.
How can the illusion proc orbs if you haven't triggered all of the orbs?Because right now, even if it shows all the animations of the orb, it doesn't proc it.You can critical and do a fake bash, but you can't proc orbs with illusions.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Great idea.
Instant T-up!
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

From the very start, i really like this... i want this to be implemented. REALLY LOVE IT!! im a huge weaver fan and this will make him stronger.... but like any other says, if this skill would be implemented, he already has 3 escape skill... (time lapse, shukuchi and time inversion).... but still a BIG T UP from me
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:08 AM   #27
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-Up.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

great! T-up
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:38 AM   #29
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Very nice improvement, T-Up. This would make Weaver maybe a bit imba'ish.. Idk.
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Old 05-10-2010, 10:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

t-up best remake yet
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:45 PM   #31
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-null, Time inversion would make weaver more imba! As he can blink, he can avoid more storm-bolt-skills, and so much harder to be killed (that he is now).

I'd like to see the illusion appears right next to weaver and do that 2nd attack, a simply way to get rid of orb effect
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:18 AM   #32
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-up, great idea, this could make Weaver useful even in competitive games
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Awesome idea, I really love this one, its unique and great.

However, I have one concern. Weaver already has two skills, Ult and Shukuchi, with which it can get very fast from one place to another. This could make him too powerful, having two skills to easily chase enemies and three skills, which are useful as an escape mechanism.

Anyway, Imo the pros outweigh the cons, its fun and original and I like it, so clear TUp from me. Just one thing, make it unable to cross through unpassable terrain obviously ^^

Well, one of the best remake suggestions Ive ever seen on this forum, I really hope Icefrog sees this

To keep it balanced, you could let the skill stay an orb-effect imo, if it really proves to be necessary. The important thing is imo the blink, its versatile, useful and really fun.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:50 PM   #34
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Definitely T-up. Great skill, i won't be surprised if it's included in 6.68 (or 69)
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

i like it T-UP

to make all orbs usable without being triggered it would need a second hidden hero, sharing exp, items etc with weaver

i would add a cooldown (~ 15 sec) to the swap thing, because it's too strong, having a windwalk, time lapse and a really cheap low cd blink on a hero imo
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

t-up for nice idea
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:32 PM   #37
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

Add a cd and a mana cost to the time inversion, and it could balance out.But I the numbers are really up to Ice if he decides to implement this, which I'm sure he will.Or at least something similar to this.Great thinking! Support!
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

I like the idea very much but the problem is it looks pretty overpowered. I really think weaver has enough escape mechanisms now and adding 1 more to them would simply make him undefeatable if not cc'ed to death. but I DO think he is very item restricted now and something must be done about it.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:44 PM   #39
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

I really think Shukuchi shouldn't have been buffed back in that one version(lol). 2 seconds between invis? Even I have trouble aiming shit at Weaver with that time span. And on top of that, max ms.

This is a really nice remake of geminate. It doesn't change his damage output, rather it gives him more versatility to kill his targets and escape(not sure how you do this though)

Clear T-Up from me.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:54 PM   #40
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Default Re: [REMAKE] Geminate Attack v2

T-up again
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