[RMK] - Refresher Orb + Test Map

[BiH-Kira]

• Intro
• Test Map

Just to say this at the start.
This remake of Refreshers active skill is at the same time a minor nerf to some heroes, but a mayor buff on most casters.

Tast map included thanks to ItIsNight. You can find the test map in the attachments or here. The heroes and skills are unrelated to DotA and the numbers (CD and mana cost) aren't related to my suggestion, but you can see how it works. To see how the 6 seconds disable works and how it doesn't works on ultimates with CD's lower then 6 seconds.

• Current Refresher orb
• Reasoning (read before the suggestion)
• Suggested remake

Refresher Orb
Build up:
Oblivion Staff (1675)
Perseverance (1750)
Refresher Orb (1875)

Total Cost: 5300 gold
Bonus:
+5 HP/sec regeneration
+200% mana regeneration
+40 damage
Reset Cooldowns (active)

Additional Information:
Reset Cooldowns
- Resets the cooldowns of all your abilities and items
- Costs 375 mana, and has a 210 second cooldown

(go to the next tab)

We all know that refresher cost a lot mana and has a really long cooldown.
Reducing mana cost, cooldown or changing refresher so that it gives mana or INT isn't really an option. So I was thinking how to change it without making it overpowered on some heroes. I come to this conclusion.

(go to the next tab)

Refresher Orb
Build up:
Oblivion Staff (1675)
Perseverance (1750)
Refresher Orb recipe (1375)

Total Cost: 4800 gold
Bonus:
+5 HP/sec regeneration
+200% mana regeneration
+40 damage
Reset Cooldowns (active)

Additional Information:
Reset Cooldowns
- Resets the cooldowns of all your abilities and items
- Disables your ultimate for 6 seconds
- Costs 200 mana, and has a 140 second cooldown
- Instead of the ultimate, the hero gets a new passive "skill". The skill does nothing, has the same icon as the disabled Dagger and its tooltip says that the skill is temporary disabled by Refresher orb
- Refresher Orb won't disable ultimates with lower cooldowns then 6 seconds, ultimates which aren't on cooldown and passive ultimates unless they have a cooldown longer then 6 seconds (e.g. Leoric's Reincarnation will be disabled)

Visual Effect
- Using Refresher Orb will have a visual effect that can be easily noticed in team fights. It will be the same effect as at the spell Essence of Blight on War3 TFT Obsidian Statue. Same effect as when Essence Aura replenishes someones mana, just the green version.

Changes are in green.

• Deeper explanation
• Hero viability
• Synergy

I did some buffs on the item and 1 tweak. First I reduced the mana cost, cooldown and the price of the item. The mana cost and cooldown received a huge buff. That's why I did this minor tweak on the 'Refresh' ability. It refreshes all skills as it does currently, but disables your ultimate for 6 seconds.
Why?

When I reduced the mana cost and the cooldown, some heroes that have game breaking ultimates would be overpowered. The thing that keeped those heroes from aut winning with Refresher was the huge mana cost. Without it, there is nothing to prevent them from owning without a counter. Those heroes are Enigma, Tidehunter, Roof, Magnus, Earthshaker (not anymore after the ultimate tweak)... And those are the only heroes that actually buy Refresher. You can sometimes see some other hero with Refresher orb, but that is really really rare.

By reducing the mana cost I allowed those heroes to use their ultimates 2 times without needing some huge mana items, but at the same time, I allowed the enemy team to prevent those heroes to do so, by adding the 6 seconds disable. This actually makes the game more playable and enjoyable. The lower mana cost and cooldown makes Refresher viable on maby other heroes who rely on their other skills and not only on their ultimates, but I did not make it overpowered on some heroes that are game breaking. Now heroes that where walking ultimates need to think a bit before using the refresher. A bit of a mind game. The enemy has to chose. Ether to ignore Tide and get destroyed or to focus Tide. So this remake adds 1 pseudo ability to Refresher Orb. It's a pseudo Berserker Call. Something like Radiance's aoe presence. Get destroyed by the carrier or focus them. Every non retarded or non newbie player will focus them. So this enabling some heroes to play the "tank" roll for real. The visual effect after using Refresher will help even more to play the tank roll since the enemy team will be "notified" about using it.

As you can see, Refresher gets more viable and improves the game play by adding some mind game then the current one.

There are many heroes that would benefit from the remake. I will name few and the reasons. I will also explain why Refresher stays viable on heroes that rely on their ultimates much more then on their regular skills.
Ok, now some newly viable heroes:
Zeus - He ha some high damage nukes, a great ultimate and a skill that deals damage in aoe when he casts some skills. So the more skills the casts the more damage he deals passively. So refresher doubles the times his passive activates and increases his damage almost 2 times.
Lion - 2 disables and 2 nukes. Multiply that and you gate a disable machine.
Lina, WD and Rhasta - same as lion. Disables and damage.
Invoker, Dazzle, OD, Dark Seer, Far seer, Ezalor, CM, Puck, AA, Necrolyte, Pugna, Akasha, NA, Gyrocopter, PotM, Juggernaut, Morphling (!!!), Kunkka, Omniknight, ES, Sven, Tiny, Nightstalker, Undying, Nessaj, TC, SK.
Those heroes have some nice regular skills and can use the damage from Refresher. The new mana cost is low enough for them not to be a big problem, but still not low enough to be used without any mana items (maybe a null or 2).
Refresher won't be core on them. It will still be situational, but not even close to the current one. And not many heroes will rush it since some other items are more viable in early game, while Refresher is the late game solution.

Now at the walking ultimates. The ultimate disable is just 6 seconds, while most ultimate disables are 2 or more seconds. In Roofs case 5 seconds. So actually, the enemy won't have much time to take the carrier down (unless it's Enigma, sry girls ). It's not like it's impossible to make 2 ultimates in a row. It's just that it's a bit harder. But the pros are much bigger then the cons.

Refresher has some synergy with some items and heroes.
* As I already said, I increases the agro of the carrier. The carries is more likely to be focused and therefor he can play the tank roll. So Tide won't be a walking ulti, but will also tank which has great synergy with his Kraken Shell. Same goes for many other heroes.
*At the same time, the 'tank' roll has synergy with a nice item called Blade Mail. BM lasts 4 seconds while Refresher disables your ultimate for 6 seconds. If your ultimate disables the enemies for 1 seconds, you will have 4 out of 5 seconds Blade Mail activated. So you will do a lot of damage just by activating Refresher. But to be sure the enemies know you used Refresher, there will be some visual effect above the hero. Like OD's mana replenish, just the green version. (thanks to tuffy for suggesting it here).

• pros/cons
• Possible to code (Küken)
• Changelog
• Credits

*Viable on more heroes
*Much lower mana cost
*Much lower cooldown
*Doesn't require high cost mana items
*Increases the agro of the carrier enabling some heroes to play the tank roll for real
*Gives the enemy team some space to counter the Refresher carrier

------------------------------------------------------------------

*More difficult to use well
*Less viable on heroes who rely only on ultimate skills
*Increases the agro of the carrier
*Makes countering double-combos easier

Hey

Like you stated in your suggestion, it is not easily possible to set the cooldown to 8 seconds (it would not be impossible, but would require tons of dummy abilities (at least 1 per ultimate) and code changes, but impossible with a reasonable amout of work)

Your new suggestion with the temporary disabled ultimate should work; however the ultimate would be removed from the command card of the hero for those 8 seconds most likely (it could not even be leveled up), probably causing confusion for the players.

With some more work, it would be possible to show a disabled icon (by setting a requirement for each spell - I did not test this, though, maybe it would malfunction), this would require quite some rework, though.

In general, your suggestion is codeable as far as I am concerned.

Regards
Küken

1.1 - Seems as it's impossible to set the cooldown to a specific number. Changed the way, but the concept stays the same. Now it disables the ultimate instead of setting it to 8 seconds
1.2 - As Küken suggested, added the disabled skill icon. More info at the skill.
1.3 - Orb not affecting ultimates with a lower CD then 8 seconds.
1.4 - Added Visual Effect upon usage of Refresher Orb.
1.5 - Ultimate disable reduced from 8 to 7 seconds. Mana cost increased from 170 to 180.
1.6 - Ultimate disable reduced from 7 to 6 seconds.
1.7 - Reduced the recipe cost to 1375. New total cost is 4800
1.8 - Added additional informations about passive ultimates, ultimates with lower cooldown then 6 seconds and ultimates which aren't on cooldown.
1.9 - Completely reorganized the opening post. Hopefully it's easier to read and looks better. Feedback pls.
2.0 - Added Test map thanks to ItIsNight
2.1 - Changed the map a bit. More heroes, different terrain, added shop.
2.2 - Increased the mana cost from 180 -> 200 and increased the cooldown from 120 -> 140 seconds.

- Credits to Küken for explaining that it's possible to code.
- Credits to tuffy for the Visual Effect upon using Refresher and for the Blade Mail/Refresher synergy.
- Credits to ItIsNight for making the test map.

[Monsterlord]

Actually, I'm really interested in seeing how this goes. 8 Seconds is still very reasonable for a high cd ultimate, and it brings the other aspects of the item in line enough that it might see some more play, especially now that it's more viable on mid-cd heroes too, such as Bane or even Crixalis.

Perhaps lower 8 seconds to 5 or so, it's still enough that large aoe ultis can't be doublecasted, but it should still allow both ultimates to make an impact on the battle, whereas if one of them is 8 seconds late, it's probably over already.

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by Monsterlord

Actually, I'm really interested in seeing how this goes. 8 Seconds is still very reasonable for a high cd ultimate, and it brings the other aspects of the item in line enough that it might see some more play.

Perhaps lower 8 seconds to 5 or so, it's still enough that large aoe ultis can't be doublecasted, but it should still allow both ultimates to make an impact on the battle, whereas if one of them is 8 seconds late, it's probably over already.

I was thinking about making it 5 seconds. But some ultimates have a really long disable.
Black Hole's duration is 4 seconds, Reverse Polarity stuns for 4 seconds, Overgrowth's duration is 5 seconds, Ravage stuns for 2.25 seconds.

If i make it 5 seconds, That gives sometimes less then 1 second time to counter. It's almost the same as some instant double ultimates, with lower mana cost. So that's not enough. With the 8 second cd, you have just 3 seconds time to counter roof. Some more time to counter Tide.

I name Tide, roof, enigma.... because they benefit the most from the current Refresher. And by buffing refresher, they get a huge buff indirectly. So I'm using them as a control group.

[bababoom]

huray for icefrog, create an alternative ult for every single hero with a cd of 8 sec. you should pay him overtime. 0 sec cd for regular spells? -wtf much?

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by bababoom

huray for icefrog, create an alternative ult for every single hero with a cd of 8 sec. you should pay him overtime. 0 sec cd for regular spells? -wtf much?

Fail.
Next time try to read it the right way.
Reset isn't equal set. The current Refresher orb resets every CD to 0.
I suggest that the Refresher orb resets every ability to 0, but not the cd of the ultimates. It will set the ultimates to 8 seconds left until the skill is usable.
So the CD stays the same. Magnus's ultimate still has 100 sec cd, but if you use Refresher, you will set the CD to 8 seconds till usable instead of usable right away.

[hajasmarci]

somehow remove the recipe using soulbooster and it will be beyond awesome

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by hajasmarci

somehow remove the recipe using soulbooster and it will be beyond awesome

And that's exactly what i don't want to do. Adding mana to Refresher Orb would make it overpowered. Allowing some heroes to use powerful ultimates just like that isn't right. To allow Tide to use the double "V" (for victory) button, he needs to farm some more then just Refresher. I reduced the mana cost for more then a half. Now adding mana...

[Torchic Maniac]

Can the 8 second ultimate CD be codable?

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by Torchic Maniac

Can the 8 second ultimate CD be codable?

That... could be a problem.
I don't have any clue about coding beside C++ and Java, so i don't really know if it's codable via the Map Editor.

I just hope it is and that someone would tell if it is or not.

But I have an idea how to avoid coding to set the left CD to 8 seconds. It resets the ultimate like any other spell, but disables its usage. I think it's coding to disable just one spell for a set duration. In this case 8 seconds. I have seen it on some other maps.

[Quiesce]

I don't think it's codeable.

The refresh-cooldown to 0 part is, but not the 8 second. Cooldown manipulation is weird.

[shayayalee]

I think this would be a very good change. The refresher has been a pubbie fun item for too long. It may need a slight decrease in the price too to make it worth buying.

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by Graupel

I don't think it's codeable.

The refresh-cooldown to 0 part is, but not the 8 second. Cooldown manipulation is weird.

Ok, thanks for the information. I changed the way how it works.
Now it refreshes all cooldowns like the current refresher does. But it disables your ultimate for 8 seconds. i have seen in some other maps that it's possible to disable just on spell on one unit. So this should be possible.
What do you think?

Originally Posted by shayayalee

I think this would be a very good change. The refresher has been a pubbie fun item for too long. It may need a slight decrease in the price too to make it worth buying.

Heh... that's one of the reasons why I didn't change the recipe part. But i will wait for some more feedback and if more people want a lower price, with good arguments, I'll lower the price. But not too much. Maybe maximum 500 gold.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[dominator02]

only the 8 cd on ulti.That was a huge nerf to Warlock,Roof,TC and other Refresher wielder.
to others.

[Monsterlord]

only the 8 cd on ulti.That was a huge nerf to Warlock,Roof,TC and other Refresher wielder.

No it's not. Look at the change in Refresher's cd. Now it's roughly the same as their ultimates, which means you'll be able to double-ultimate during every fight, rather than every two fights. It's actually a huge buff to those heroes.

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by dominator02

only the 8 cd on ulti.That was a huge nerf to Warlock,Roof,TC and other Refresher wielder.
to others.

It's a small nerf and an even smaller price in order to make Refresher viable on many heroes. For now there are 4-5 heroes who buy Refresher. Enigma, Warlock, Tide, Roof, rarely Magnus, rarely Doom, not viable after the utli change of Earth, and you can see it sometimes (but really really rare) on OD and Necrolyte.

So for now, we have 4 heroes where it's almost a core item.
2 heroes where it's viable, but not that good.
And 2 heroes who can take it and benefit from it, but there are way better items for them so they almost never buy Refresher.

Out of the 97 heroes, only 8 could use it. Is that a good item?
And if we buff Refresher so that it's viable on many other heroes, but don't nerf its usage on those "fantastic 4" they will be overpowered.

Even with the 8 seconds disable, it could be still overpowered on them. Read few posts above. Roof disables and entire team for 5 seconds. Magnus and Enigma for 4 seconds. Are 3 seconds enough to take down roof to not allow him to use ulti the seconds time? Are 4 seconds enough to kill Magnus and Enigma? Magnus has good hp and most people usually go AC on him so he has good armor to survive the 4 seconds. And if he survives, you are focusing him, so he will stun almost all of you again.
Enigma has BKB as core, so you need to take her down with only DPS. It's pretty hard if you have the opposite team attacking you.

As you can see, on some heroes, the 8 seconds disable is hardly noticeable.

[Console]

Not codeable

[Sonic_Stream]

to 8 cd disabled ultimate. You should decreases it to two secs.

It somehow possible to disabled ultimate 8 cd. Just set that after refresher ultimate will straight to have a 8 sec of cd until it can be cast again after 8 sec.

[Monsterlord]

Originally Posted by Console

Not codeable

Disabling a skill for 8 seconds is easily codable.

[BiH-Kira]

Originally Posted by killjogging1256

to 8 cd disabled ultimate. You should decreases it to two secs.

Read my post again and again:

Originally Posted by BiH-Kira

Even with the 8 seconds disable, it could be still overpowered on them. Read few posts above. Roof disables and entire team for 5 seconds. Magnus and Enigma for 4 seconds. Are 3 seconds enough to take down roof to not allow him to use ulti the seconds time? Are 4 seconds enough to kill Magnus and Enigma? Magnus has good hp and most people usually go AC on him so he has good armor to survive the 4 seconds. And if he survives, you are focusing him, so he will stun almost all of you again.
Enigma has BKB as core, so you need to take her down with only DPS. It's pretty hard if you have the opposite team attacking you.

As you can see, on some heroes, the 8 seconds disable is hardly noticeable.

Originally Posted by killjogging1256

It somehow possible to disabled ultimate 8 cd. Just set that after refresher ultimate will straight to have a 8 sec of cd until it can be cast again after 8 sec.

Setting the left time of a CD of a skill is uncodable (i was told so), but disabling one spell is easily codeable.

And I put a 8 seconds disable of the ultimates to prevent abusing Refresher with double imba aoe ultimates. Just look at the Cd and Mana cost. You onlt need 2 Null Talismans and you can cast ulti/refresher/ulti on most heroes. So they don't need Shivas or some other expensive mana item.

[Balcas]

Good suggestion, tho I would still like to see some change in items/stats.