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Old 05-23-2010, 06:13 PM   #1
SpiralAvenger
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Default Nevermore build?


So I've been looking up Nevermore guides, but a lot of them seem conflicting. Treads or Travels. Bracers/Wraiths? Magic Wand/Bottle? Desolator/Satanic? Lothars/Blink? Im not sure when I'm supposed to get BKB either... I guess the skill build is quite simple. Necromaster+Shadowraze whenever possible, then Presences of Dark Lord and Ultimate, then finish. Replays would be cool or just the parsed stuff.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

I can be wrong,but I've seen Nevermoore owning with Eye of Skadi and Manta Style.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Well, I've seen that his damage comes from his ultimate and after a while his dps won't match up to later game carries. Manta style might be good if I get it early.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Bottle
BoT
Dagger
BKB
Manta
Skadi
Satanic
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Nevermore is my most favourite hero, and i have been playing with him since ages, so whatever i say is related to the best for me, which doesnt means that this way or items builds are the best for him,
i go with maxing out necromastery and shadowraze first, then go pick ulti, then the max out presence of the darklord, and then stats+ultilvl..
for the build i go for, bottle,dagger,bot,bkb,manta,deso.. thats enough for him, you can sell the bottle later, and depending on the situation you can either far increase your dmg, for eg get an buriza or you can get evasion and some dmg with butterfly, or if you need hp go for hot, and if you dont wanna make deso on him, simply make skadi and satanic! but i still recommend deso and the last item as assault, further armor reduction, attack speed and yr armor increases too!
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubsie View Post
Bottle
BoT
Dagger
BKB
Manta
Skadi
Satanic
Isn't that a pretty ridiculous amount of farming you have to do considering your steroid skill (Necromastery) isn't as powerful relative to the time into the game? Around 20k farming right there.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

bracer if you are getting pwnd by nukes otherwise wraiths.
Get both wand and bottle.
need more survivability ? Get satanic if not get deso.
I am a blink lover but in pubs lothar works better since invis=unkillable
BKB if the opponents got a lot of stuns.

For replays i can suggest you to go at gosugamers.net and find some Yamateh( team : KS) , Yaphets babyknight .
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

That was a dreambuild, i myself have never got a chance to finish that build in a game.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd View Post
bracer if you are getting pwnd by nukes otherwise wraiths.
Get both wand and bottle.
need more survivability ? Get satanic if not get deso.
I am a blink lover but in pubs lothar works better since invis=unkillable
BKB if the opponents got a lot of stuns.

For replays i can suggest you to go at gosugamers.net and find some Yamateh( team : KS) , Yaphets babyknight .
Yamateh is one of the best players ever, i really like his gameplay, but if you really wanna see a good SF, theres a player in china, with the nick starting with sth like C , sorry i cant remember his name well its quite difficult, you will fell in love with his gameplay of nevermore

2nd i dont agree with getting a wand, thats just a waste of gold, and lothars is a good item, gives you as and dmg as well, but it can be countered pretty easily with ward, dagger i wud say is much more prefferable!
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel View Post
Nevermore is my most favourite hero, and i have been playing with him since ages, so whatever i say is related to the best for me, which doesnt means that this way or items builds are the best for him,
i go with maxing out necromastery and shadowraze first, then go pick ulti, then the max out presence of the darklord, and then stats+ultilvl..
for the build i go for, bottle,dagger,bot,bkb,manta,deso.. thats enough for him, you can sell the bottle later, and depending on the situation you can either far increase your dmg, for eg get an buriza or you can get evasion and some dmg with butterfly, or if you need hp go for hot, and if you dont wanna make deso on him, simply make skadi and satanic! but i still recommend deso and the last item as assault, further armor reduction, attack speed and yr armor increases too!
The first few items are similar to my build, I guess I should consider Manta. I guess now the question is whether I should go Desolator or Satanic.
Off Topic, Did the quote in your signature come from me? I could have sworn I said that in Random Chat.
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralAvenger View Post
The first few items are similar to my build, I guess I should consider Manta. I guess now the question is whether I should go Desolator or Satanic.
Off Topic, Did the quote in your signature come from me? I could have sworn I said that in Random Chat.
well for that, its pretty easy and thats upto you to decide, if you think you need to be dmg dealer, go with the deso build, and if you need to go as defensive build with a lots hp also is case, if you are dying to much or r in dire need of hp, go for satanic/skadi, personally i dont like satanic on him at all.

hehe nah, that was my own :-)
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Boots: Power Threads/BoT
Orb: Stygian/Skadi/Dominator
Survivality: Bottle/HoD
For Requiem: BKB/Blink Dagger/Lothars
Armor: Assault Cuirass
Special: Etc.

This is my build
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Old 05-23-2010, 06:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13BladesOfChaos View Post
Boots: Power Threads/BoT
Orb: Stygian/Skadi/Dominator
Survivality: Bottle/HoD
For Requiem: BKB/Blink Dagger/Lothars
Armor: Assault Cuirass
Special: Etc.

This is my build
Perhaps you didn't read my OP. I kinda wanted to know which between the 2 choices I wanted. Which situations warranted their use and such.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

its just like you can't say BoT sucks get PT, depending on your playstyle and lineup you can get one.
If you want to farm like mad and carry lateron get BoT.
PT's strength boost helps you early especially if you struggle with getting ganked also they boost your DPS.

Lothats vs Dagger simply can't be decided, both have pro's and cons, you should use try both and look which one works better for you. however there are games where this may vary, going lothars against bounty and slardar isn't that clever.

Orb of choice also depends on your lineup and playstyle, I personally play orbless most of the time, but imho deso EoS and Lifesteal all can work for you.
EoS is great when coupled with manta, however a fast deso will kill that maiden with 4 hits. Lifesteal is great if coupled with BKB since with enough damage you can keep yourself alive by leeching.
BKB isn't needed in all games, you have to check your enemies. If they have a shitload of stuns you propably need one, if there are only 1-2 you might skip BKB.
Bracers or Wraiths are completely up to you, I usually get a wand and thats that.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

pretty cookie-cutter nowadays: wand treads bottle lothars BKB (dont just get it because someone says its core tho, sometimes youre better off spending your money on sth else; against lots of burst and disable its good ofc, but remember that manta does help quite a bit against single target spells) manta (screw deso, makes you paper like fuck and never needs IAS more than damage anyway) butter and skadi (depends on your farm which one to get first)then hotd -> satanic, still got slots? crit.

bracers/wraiths are almost always a waste on SF, slippers/gaunts/circlets/branches are enough till you get some gear.

im not saying you have to farm all that ofc, depends on the game. butterfly should be attainable most of the time, rest is for long/farm heavy games

bottle bot bkb blink simply lacks a lot in terms of DPS - yes, nevermore does sick damage anyway, but sooner or later you wont be able to keep up with other carries with that kind of build. works if youre mid-game carry or mainly needed for AoE ownage via requiem and razes.

presence of the dark lord can be delayed for some stats, SF gains levels fast anyway, ult whenever possible, start with necro, max razes first, necro second.

anyways. you should always get manta, its too good not to get on SF
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

bottle/treads(can be BoT's if you farm well)/lothars(or blink, preferential)/manta/bkb/bfly

Thats my opinion though, can be subbed for a Desolator or Mkb or something, its wide open.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Rush BoT (and I prefer no wraiths) if you had a good early game, wraiths if you had a normal early game and bracers if you had a hard early game. Bottle is of course the first item you buy (no, not bottle first, but the first item the courier will bring you). If playing pubs: Lothars. Else, it depends. Lothars works better for escaping since you can invis + extra movement speed and it is easier to build, but when you're doing good buy a dagger. Then, it depends on the situation. Lots of stunners/disablers/...: BKB. Else, get Desolater (I just don't like lifesteal on SF, don't know why :"D).
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Buy a courier if playing in pubs. You should have Bottle, Wand and Boots of speed around lvl 8 (not to mension a flying courier). Then rush Travels. I dont find pt any useful (less ms, less mobility). Dagger > Lothars 99% of the time. With Lothars you wont be able to catch fleeing enemies + it can be countered very easily with dusts/gem. Also Bkb is nearly a must in most cases to place your requiem. Other items may varie although i find manta most useful due to its ms bonus and since you can farm it quite fast after your core. Also Deso/Assault is a great choice. Also bands/bracers are a waste, you can buy pms since you probobly bought 2 slippers at the beginning.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

BoT is the shit.
Next either rice for some dps
or get Blink/Lothar's and BKB and gank.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Imba nevermore always wields either dagger or eul's.

If you have a team full of stunners you go lothar's.If you have a team of anti spellcasters (omni,abaddon) you go eul's.

It's so much fun using lothar's (or phase) and combine a perfect ultimate with eul's.

The best item build MUST have a black king bar /ethereal combo.Played a cw today where enemy had full aoe team and if I only had that bkb earlier I could cause a lot of pain with that much agility (ethereal/butterfly).


And to those who think Shadowfiend is a semi carry uber late game,of course you do because even late game you use the damn ultimate when you should totally devote yourself on agility and ehp.

Edit: Of course no to desolator.Cuirass all the way.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiralAvenger View Post
Isn't that a pretty ridiculous amount of farming you have to do considering your steroid skill (Necromastery) isn't as powerful relative to the time into the game? Around 20k farming right there.
SF is expected to farm a lot using his shadow razes, he depends on outfarming the enemy team to outcarry, so yeah. Anyway his build is still shit though. Any build not including T4 dmg items or atleast butterfly is shit.

For the love of god don't do the bkb-blink-boT shit. Most competitive teams have realized how awful it is because it wastes a massive amount of money on pure utility items.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:04 AM   #22
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
SF is expected to farm a lot using his shadow razes, he depends on outfarming the enemy team to outcarry, so yeah. Anyway his build is still shit though. Any build not including T4 dmg items or atleast butterfly is shit.

For the love of god don't do the bkb-blink-boT shit. Most competitive teams have realized how awful it is because it wastes a massive amount of money on pure utility items.
Unfortunately he is right. There are two different kinds of build on Nevermore right now: the BoT + Lothars/Dagger + BKB build, which is basically utility items on SF, relying on his AoE nuke, or the Treads + BKB + Manta, the AoE Carry build which allows you to farm that BKB real fast and move onto DPS items ASAP. Honestly, the AoE Carry build is BETTER for this version, thanks to the tri-carry strategy used by the Asians.

The classic BoT + Dagger + BKB still works, but is ~probably~ more suited to pubs than clan wars nowadays. But for most cases, BKB is a must. Whoever tells you to go Lothars then straight out DPS items like Skadi and Butterfly must be a pubstomper or someone with extreme luck when it comes team fights, because decent opponents = at least 3 or 4 disables in their team.

(Yea and my guide will be edited in a week's time so that ppl won't complain that my guide doesn't work for clan wars ^_^)
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:05 AM   #23
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Btw there's no real cookie cutter build to Nevermore. You've just got to improvise. Just remember BKB
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:11 AM   #24
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Question is Satanic or Deso. I don't get either but w/e.

Satanic is for when you can't survive in teamfights.

Deso is for when you can.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:04 AM   #25
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

I usually go this build:
Wand, Bottle, Threads, Lothars/bdager, manta, mkb, heart ( sell wand )
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLoveIsYueru View Post
Unfortunately he is right. There are two different kinds of build on Nevermore right now: the BoT + Lothars/Dagger + BKB build, which is basically utility items on SF, relying on his AoE nuke, or the Treads + BKB + Manta, the AoE Carry build which allows you to farm that BKB real fast and move onto DPS items ASAP. Honestly, the AoE Carry build is BETTER for this version, thanks to the tri-carry strategy used by the Asians.

The classic BoT + Dagger + BKB still works, but is ~probably~ more suited to pubs than clan wars nowadays. But for most cases, BKB is a must. Whoever tells you to go Lothars then straight out DPS items like Skadi and Butterfly must be a pubstomper or someone with extreme luck when it comes team fights, because decent opponents = at least 3 or 4 disables in their team.

(Yea and my guide will be edited in a week's time so that ppl won't complain that my guide doesn't work for clan wars ^_^)
So it is the build on your signature right?

I'm sorry,but this is also old news >_>
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Treads/Travel
Depends on your team strategy and gameplay as a whole. For example, if your hard carry (e.g. pl/drow) is having a difficult time farming, it is advised you go for a BoT to gank/backup/ cause a distraction in a different lane. If your lanes are doing well treads is preferable. You can generally tell how good your hard carry is doing by minute 10. If <30 cs and no kills he is not doing well at all.

Or on a question of strategy, sometimes you can have a strat which aims to gain advantage by towering early and putting pressure on all lanes (e.g. Pugna, sf, Furion, rhasta, sven (we used this)) all are decent/great pushers individually. However here sf is also the main carry so he goes BoT to farm up as well.

Bracers/Wraiths
Only if you're not doing well and getting ganked a lot. Massing either (usually 2/3) is fine ONLY if you're not doing well. Heck, you can even consider a vanguard if you want to save space.

Magic Wand/Bottle
Bottle is core. SF should really be rune-whoring. magic wand is a bonus.

Desolator/Satanic
Desolator is best mid-game, late-game after damage items (butterfly/skadi at the very least. better if you have something extras like buriza) satanic wins. Judge if you can finish by mid or late. The damage item is even more so important because if a hard carry like pl has radiance and butterfly, satanic alone would not save you.

Lothars/Blink
Depending on how you play and the line-up. Lothars is better for "catching", some dps and counterganking. If you're doing well and planning to stick to a lane, go lothars. Blink is a great all-around. It is arguably better for escaping (this would require you to know how to juke for 3 seconds if you have received damage) and is instant placement. If my team has an AoE disable (tide,enigma, es, tree, etc) I usually go for blink.

BKB?
Always, unless you're stomping then you can do whatever seems reasonable.

General advice
SF is greatest at following levels (assuming your opponent is equal level or lower): 7, then 11-16. 7 is when you max raze and 11-16 when you have level 2 RoS. Level 1 RoS is kind of pathetic and not really worth it.

If by some chance you are outlaned and falling in level (due to ganks etc.). Farm, farm, farm! Close the gaps in level. Farm the lane, farm the nc and if you can get some ganks farm their heroes. If the opponent team is teamfight oriented and pushes towers as 5 ignore them and go farm and steal THEIR towers because unless you can land a good ulti and several razes in a teamfight you're no different from a support.

Stats if you need more mana/ if you are dying a bit too much. Otherwise PotDL.

Hope this helps
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavas View Post
Treads/Travel

General advice
SF is greatest at following levels (assuming your opponent is equal level or lower): 7, then 11-16. 7 is when you max raze and 11-16 when you have level 2 RoS. Level 1 RoS is kind of pathetic and not really worth it.




How can a hard carry be the most effective at levels you listed, explain it to me, please?
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:20 PM   #29
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by UrkeNS View Post
How can a hard carry be the most effective at levels you listed, explain it to me, please?
Read the assumption: assuming enemies are of equal or lower level. At level 7, with max shadowraze, it deals the most damage if you hit all 3 (even 2 is painful) razes out of all normal skills. If you can't hit razes, practice or don't play nevermore.

Second, Nevermore is not a hard carry. Hence it is not recommended he is played as one. Notice in my post I talk about hard carries and give examples like pl and drow. Those are hard carries. With equal items nevermore is not expected to win against them. Nevermore wins by having better items than his opponent and ending the game before they can gain equal items.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavas View Post
Read the assumption: assuming enemies are of equal or lower level. At level 7, with max shadowraze, it deals the most damage if you hit all 3 (even 2 is painful) razes out of all normal skills. If you can't hit razes, practice or don't play nevermore.

Second, Nevermore is not a hard carry. Hence it is not recommended he is played as one. Notice in my post I talk about hard carries and give examples like pl and drow. Those are hard carries. With equal items nevermore is not expected to win against them. Nevermore wins by having better items than his opponent and ending the game before they can gain equal items.

i agree hes one of the best farmer/carry hero in dota, similar to that of brood! and other heroes, as compared to carry heroes, he can farm pretty well, with shadowrazes.. i love having CM in my team.. Shadowraze+CMAura FTW! = IMBAFARM!
same for brood! ^_^
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:40 PM   #31
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel View Post
i agree hes one of the best farmer/carry hero in dota, similar to that of brood! and other heroes, as compared to carry heroes, he can farm pretty well, with shadowrazes.. i love having CM in my team.. Shadowraze+CMAura FTW! = IMBAFARM!
same for brood! ^_^
He didn't say Never is carry. He denied that, actually.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:41 PM   #32
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by SpiralAvenger View Post
So I've been looking up Nevermore guides, but a lot of them seem conflicting. Treads or Travels. Bracers/Wraiths? Magic Wand/Bottle? Desolator/Satanic? Lothars/Blink? Im not sure when I'm supposed to get BKB either... I guess the skill build is quite simple. Necromaster+Shadowraze whenever possible, then Presences of Dark Lord and Ultimate, then finish. Replays would be cool or just the parsed stuff.
Ultimately, what you get depends on the game and your skill as a player.

First, for Boots.
Are you farming well early game?
Yes: Travels
No: Treads

Bracers/Wraiths
Are there many nukers/stunners on the other side?
Yes: Get Bracers
No: Next question
Do you need to carry early-mid?
Yes: Get Wraiths
No: Get neither

Wand
Are you playing in a pub game?
Yes: Next question
No: Get Wand/Stick
Are there many spellcasters/nukers on the other side?
Yes: Get it
No: Preference. Get it if you want

Bottle
Are you going to gank alot?
Yes: Get it
No: Don't get it

Desolator&Satanic
Do you need to do high damage/are there many fragile casters on the other team?
Yes: Get Desolator
No: Next Question
Do you deal enough damage already?
Yes: Get Satanic
No: Get Neither

Lothar and Dagger and BKB
Is it a high level game/Are you a competant player/Can you coordinate with your team well?
Yes: Get Dagger
No: Next Question
Do you need to carry/Do your opponents have a good anti-intiator/someone fast with their stun or silence?
Yes: Get BKB
No: Next Question
Does your team already have someone with Invisible-type skills already?
Yes: Get Dagger/BKB
No: Get Lothars

Your build is variable on the situation. There is no set-in-stone build.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavas View Post
Read the assumption: assuming enemies are of equal or lower level. At level 7, with max shadowraze, it deals the most damage if you hit all 3 (even 2 is painful) razes out of all normal skills. If you can't hit razes, practice or don't play nevermore.

Second, Nevermore is not a hard carry. Hence it is not recommended he is played as one. Notice in my post I talk about hard carries and give examples like pl and drow. Those are hard carries. With equal items nevermore is not expected to win against them. Nevermore wins by having better items than his opponent and ending the game before they can gain equal items.
Equal items means nothing because different items fit different heroes. And if they were equally *farmed*, I think Never would win versus Drow. Lancer would kick his ass, you are correct about that. Where did you see me saying I can't hit razes? Whatsoever, I excel at hitting those. So, he is most effective at level 7 and 16 because his spells are maximized then. Couldn't we say that for every hero?
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by UrkeNS View Post
He didn't say Never is carry. He denied that, actually.
My bad, didnt read it completely, well never is a very good carry no denying to the fact!
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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My bad, didnt read it completely, well never is a very good carry no denying to the fact!
Yeah, that's kinda what I have said. So, we agree. : )
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by UrkeNS View Post
Equal items means nothing because different items fit different heroes. And if they were equally *farmed*, I think Never would win versus Drow. Lancer would kick his ass, you are correct about that. Where did you see me saying I can't hit razes? Whatsoever, I excel at hitting those. So, he is most effective at level 7 and 16 because his spells are maximized then. Couldn't we say that for every hero?
Shadowfiend carries because he farms faster than most carries and does a whole lot of damage with minimal farm.

Also, he has great lane control due to awesome attack animation and boosted damage from Necromastery. (it is very hard to even touch the creeps against a good SF)

No, you cannot say that for every hero because certain heros also require gold in addition to levels to carry. Said heros are only effective at a certain level and after having farmed a certain amount of gold.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by UrkeNS View Post
Yeah, that's kinda what I have said. So, we agree. : )
ofc we do ^_^ next experiment on him, with etheral, gonna try it out today, heard its awesome on him!
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel View Post
ofc we do ^_^ next experiment on him, with etheral, gonna try it out today, heard its awesome on him!
You need to combine bkb with this(and later butterfly).Otherwise it is useless.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by LightburneR View Post
Shadowfiend carries because he farms faster than most carries and does a whole lot of damage with minimal farm.

Also, he has great lane control due to awesome attack animation and boosted damage from Necromastery. (it is very hard to even touch the creeps against a good SF)

No, you cannot say that for every hero because certain heros also require gold in addition to levels to carry. Said heros are only effective at a certain level and after having farmed a certain amount of gold.
People keep putting words into my mouth. o.o Firstly, I was responding to the post where it said, paraphrased: Assuming Nevermore and the enemy are on the same level ... If he outfarms them, ofcourse his razes are going to be more painful. Secondly, how did you conclude that I was refering to carries only in the last sentence? Lina isn't a carry, and she is most effective with Laguna Blade and other two nukes maximized. Same for Tinker. Same for Akasha. Same for Pudge. Same for Bloodseeker. Same for Storm Spirit. Etc...
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:57 PM   #40
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Default Re: Nevermore build?

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Originally Posted by Kasad View Post
You need to combine bkb with this(and later butterfly).Otherwise it is useless.
sure thx for the advice man
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