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Old 05-25-2010, 08:47 PM   #1
tuffy
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Cool Kelen's Slippers



Boots of Speed
500 gold
*50 movement speed

+


Kelen's Dagger
2150 gold
*Blink (active)

|
\/



Kelen's Slippers
2650 gold
*70 movement speed
*Blink (active)


Additional Information:
*Can be disassembled
*Movement speed bonus does not stack with Boots of Travel, Phase Boots, Power Treads, Boots of Speed or Kelen's Slippers
*Kelen's Slippers cannot be held by Butcher or Vengeful Spirit

Blink

*Teleports the caster to a nearby location instantly
*1200 range
*Cannot be used if the carrier was damaged by an enemy player-controlled unit in the last 3 seconds
*Self damage does not disable Blink, but damage from Roshan does
*Costs 75 mana, has an 14 second cooldown

Notes:
*A rather logical, clean and simple upgrade of dagger.
*Provides an alternative to Boots of Travel as higher tier (luxury) boots.
*Encourages even more heroes to get dagger.

Thank you for reading.
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Last edited by tuffy; 05-28-2010 at 05:16 PM.
Old 05-26-2010, 02:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

T-down

Kelen's dagger is already EXTREMELY POWERFUL. We do not want to free up one slot for heroes that already abuse its awesomeness.

If you insist on having this item, throw in a 1000 gold recipe or reduce the movement speed to +50 with a 500 gold recipe.
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Old 05-26-2010, 02:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

^YEAH and the BoT gives you the TP ability and (50)+45 ms, IMBA, remove BoT!

/sarcasm off

I like it, T-up
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Old 05-26-2010, 03:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

my thoughts exactly. dagger costs 2150 gold and the BoT recipe costs 2200 gold so both recipes (BoT and Kelen's slippers) have exactly the same cost. they also provide similar map control and mobility mechanisms: one is with short cd and range, the other is with high cd and range.

furthermore, BoT also frees up a slot that would otherwise be taken by scrolls of teleportation and still has been in the game for a long time and even got buffed recently (to give even more ms).

i do think that blink gives slightly more utility than teleport, though, and that is why my suggestion gives 25 less movement speed than BoT (95>70). still, for an item that costs the same as bot it would be unfair to give only 50 ms bonus compared to 95.

i did put time and efford into this suggestion and (as you can see) have examined the possible issues i could think of and have reached the conlusion that (at least imo) my suggestion wouldn't be that grossly overpowered.

really, i know that blink is an insanely good skill already, but so is teleportation... that is evidenced by the fact that maybe 20-30% (up to 50% these days) of players get dagger but nearly 100% stock up on tp scrolls. i've watched some competitive replays recently so i know this conclusion is fairly accurate. thus, the relative worth of blink and teleportation can be considered to be roughly the same (of roughly the same utility to players).

hense, players get to choose between two sets of boots that cost the same amount of gold and provide two different types of mobility of roughly the same worth (teleport/blink). imo each could be preferred over the other depending on the personal preferences of the players and the needs of the game (and the specifics of the hero, ofc).

anyway, i would appreciate more constructive feedback.
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Old 05-26-2010, 03:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Kelen's Dagger provides MUCH MUCH MORE combat effectiveness than BoT. The two abilities are also very much different.

Teleport scrolls can be bought at 135 because the ability is not overpowered. Do you see Blink potions being sold at 135? What would happen if Blink potions exist?

Heros such as Sand King and EarthShaker will no longer need to endure the long duration of farming for a Kelen's dagger in order to abuse its power!

Definitely T-down. The fact that there are no Blink potions mean that the Blink ability is far superior to the teleportation ability. If it is far superior, either make it far more expensive, or just don't change anything.
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Old 05-26-2010, 04:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

that is your opinion, so fair enough.
note, however, that i'm not suggesting a reduction of the cost of dagger or the introduction of cheap blink consumables! to get the ability to blink people would still have to farm at least 2150 gold just as before!

just consider the amount of tp scrolls a player buys throughout a game. in many games it can reach 20 per hero which is equivalent to the cost of a dagger. furthermore, the fact that tp scrolls (as consumables) exist is just a testament to how important and useful teleportation is through every stage of the game. not to mention that in order to get BoT (the actual item that gives the teleport ability similar to dagger that gives the blink ability) players must 'endure the same long duration of farming' as its recipe costs exactly as much as dagger does (or even more if we throw in the 500 gold for the boot component of the BoT recipe).

i guess you can argue that i can't really compare teleport to blink, and that is a fair argument as they are different skills. they do, however, fulfil a similar purpose: provide mobility. they just achieve that in two different ways, both of which are equally useful imo. that is why i don't see the problem of having both abilities on boots that also cost the same amount of gold.

it would be a tradeoff between BoT and a dagger (2 slots) or kelen's slippers and tp scrolls (2 slots again).

then again, even now dagger is not exactly easy to farm (especially on those heroes that could make the most use of it). so i can't really imagine shaker, tide and sand king roaming around the map with blink boots at the 10 minute mark...

i don't know, once again i can understand your argument, but i also think that my counter argument has some worth. all this recipe does is give 20 ms and a free slot.

now, the free slot is a big thing granted, but most of the time heroes (especially those who benefit most from dagger being roaming gankers or support) don't get enough farm to fill all their item slots anyway. furthermore, 2650 gold for boots (even with blink) is not a price to laugh at. finally, everyone who chooses to get blink boots would have to sacrifice the global mobility (and higher ms) of BoT or the invaluable strength boost from (the cheaper) threads early game. so as you can see, this wouldn't really be the best boot type in all situations for all heroes.

it would merely be another option of late game luxury footware to choose from to act as competition for BoT, depending on the players' playstyle and the needs of the game.
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Last edited by tuffy; 05-26-2010 at 04:36 AM.
Old 05-26-2010, 05:07 AM   #7
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

I suggest a small recipe cost
Cause when I play initiators I always see myself having one Boots and one Kelens in my inventory. I also suggest you find a good icon in Hiveworkshop.com
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Old 05-26-2010, 11:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

hey! those icons are my ashera's sandals icon (except the one in the middle)

:|
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Old 05-26-2010, 04:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

*Can be disassembled (if possible like perserverance - on click)

i really don't think that these boots should cost more than BoT... maybe you can convince me otherwise

about the icons... don't really matter. i've searched hive and couldn't find any suitable icons so i was left with the wow icon database.

... and i havent even seen your suggestion, i just found these three to be the most fitting out of the wow list (and funny enough, i tend to like the middle one the most).
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Old 05-27-2010, 01:15 AM   #10
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

You have reiterated my stands, but you still insist they are "equally useful". I shall write less this time, so it is clearer...

1. BoT provides general mobility, Dagger provides combat mobility. Combat mobility is of much greater value.
2. The absence of Blink Potions is testament to the greater value of the Dagger.
3. Slot space is a cost. Lack of slot space is value. What you propose is +50 MS (500) + Blink (2150) -> +70 MS + Blink - 1 slot (2650). Do you see why you need to put in an expensive recipe?
4. You cannot use the Travel Recipe for unlimited teleporting without the boot, but you can with the Dagger.

What I am saying is, your idea is good (T-up for concept), but the cost is WAYYYYYY too low.
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

1. that is your assessment, i'm not entirely convinced one is better than the other.
2. not necessarily.
3. consider other recipes without scrolls (perseverance, battlefury, butterfly, RoB, hood oD, helm oD, etc.).
4. that means that to get the item for unlimited teleporting you must spend even more gold than to obtain the item for unlimited blinking.

to stop this argument, i can understand your concern and can see the reasoning behind your points. however, i would like to see what other people have to say about it as well since i respectfully disagree with you on most points. so, i'll keep in mind your concern, but will wait for some more feedback (that may or may not convince me that a recipe is needed).
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Old 05-28-2010, 05:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

I think that you took the idea from Hero Siege's Boots of Speed, anyway, the concept sounds good, but a bit so-so. T-null.

OMG! Those boots seem from a Drag queen, srsly !
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

sry T-Down because in my opinion dagger is a very very combat deciding item. In combination with boots it will save you one slot. I think this is a bit unbalanced.
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Old 05-29-2010, 04:56 AM   #14
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Deffinately T-up, dagger buying heroes often neglect the upgrading of boots and are therefore slower than needed, this would be an awesome item imo
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Old 05-29-2010, 01:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

also buyers of dagger often makes phase boots so this will make them rethink what to make since phase boots provides much more ms than thease boots.

but i would also like to agree on puting a rcp cost for that +20ms on the boot

T-up.
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Old 05-30-2010, 03:18 AM   #16
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiche3 View Post
also buyers of dagger often makes phase boots so this will make them rethink what to make since phase boots provides much more ms than thease boots.
For this reason there should be a recipe cost of 1100 atleast, Make them think about if they want to buy phase or to upgrade to kelen's slippers by the way those are not slippers they look more like sabatons or give less ms than phase since they have to pay an additional 900 for blinkdagger and phase boots (Two slots).
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Old 05-30-2010, 05:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by cepheids View Post
Teleport scrolls can be bought at 135 because the ability is not overpowered. Do you see Blink potions being sold at 135?
i have an idea.... why would you not suggest an item called blink potion

so it would be fair....
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Old 05-30-2010, 05:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by -IDenkaiI- View Post
I think that you took the idea from Hero Siege's Boots of Speed, anyway, the concept sounds good, but a bit so-so. T-null.

OMG! Those boots seem from a Drag queen, srsly !
i agree to this... yes! i know that boots of speed that teleports.. haha!
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Old 05-30-2010, 08:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

I'm not sure how I feel about having a blink dagger and boots taking up only one item slot. Actually, I'm not sure how I feel about making the blink dagger a component item for a larger recipe
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

100% t-d in its current form. You can buy blink and automatically get a bonus +20ms. Then you can leave this boots until you get your BoT, because you get it anyways. Imo thats just a +20ms buff to dagger....
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
*Encourages even more heroes to get dagger.
How is that a good thing ?

Dagger is already overused as it is ... I don't see any reason to make it even better (and EVERY recipe that uses an item, improves it subsequently).
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

No one will buy this. All boots provide nice bonuses for low price, so this seems useless coz better buy PT + dagger and enjoy large AS and atribute bonus then just 1 free slot..
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

dagger users fall into two main categories: dagger as core and dagger as luxury.

heroes that get dagger as a core are usually poor roaming/support heroes that are often underleveled and underfarmed. this could be viewed as an indirect buff to such heroes (ES/SK/enigma/tide/etc.) since they rarely have the farm to upgrade boots to anything after they farm their dagger.

heroes that get dagger as luxury (or fun) item are probably overfarmed and owning anyway and in most cases would prefer having the healthy bonuses offered by the other boots (threads/bot/phase) and a dagger than this option.

in some cases heroes could abuse the +20 ms until they farm for another boot upgrade and disassemble. however, sometimes this is impractible and in other cases heroes get threads/phase even before they get dagger removing the dilemma in the first place.

the whole idea is to have an alternative luxury boot option for players. since this item costs the same as bot i can see no reason for it to give only +50 ms.

just so you're happy though, i can include a 50 gold recipe to prevent disassembling abuses and to make slippers cost exactly as much as bot. this is the only compromise i can make with the recipe as i don't think slippers should cost more than BoT but i consider genehmster's point a valid one. a 50 gold recipe would solve the problem and wouldn't alter the price, but on the downside can be considered just as a trivial nuisance for players that want to build the boots. oppinions?

P.S. the current icon is just a filler... duh
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

T-Down Dagger is an extremely good item, now it allows people to get it on almost any hero.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

items like boots/bracers/magic stick are already bought by almost every hero. if anything, dagger's cost doesn't allow players to farm it every game for every hero.

i still can't see why most of you guys consider this suggestion to be vastly superior to all other boot types. BoT provides much more raw ms and a very useful teleport ability, threads provide attack speed and considerable stat bonus and phase... well, they kinda suck anyway threads and phase are also considerably cheaper and easier to get. imo, blink boots would just be another option for players, but by no means the only 'best' option overshadowing all other boot types.
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Old 06-04-2010, 07:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Lotus View Post
T-Down Dagger is an extremely good item, now it allows people to get it on almost any hero.
this doesnt make any sense, the only thing it does is save 1 slot and add 20 ms, you still have to save 2150 straight up. most heroes would still prefer other boots
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

50 gold is too cheap for that MS Oo. That concept generally is flawed, you have to buff the item (buff the active?) and rise the price.

following goes for this item with a rised price:
Theres no reason to pick this over BoT except for the time until you get BoT. 1 item slot isnt worth that much until you got a great gear, and why/how would you get high gear without BoT?

That would be an item for a very small niche of heroes, and even they would prolly get PT/PB + blink most of the time. Why do we need this?

without reasonable price increase:
still exploited
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #28
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

the symbolic recipe is just to prevent the possible abuse you pointed out and by no means is meant to compensate the ms boost. i don't think this slight ms boost is worth a recipe.

battlefury grants bonus stats, an entire ability and frees 2 slots 'for free';
orchid malevolence grants bonus stats, an entire ability and frees 2 slots 'for free';
bloodstone grants extra stats, two entire abilities and frees 1 slot 'for free';
vanguard grants extra stats, an entire ability and frees 2 slots 'for free';
helm of dominator grants extra stats, an entire ability and frees 1 slot 'for free';
butterfly grants bonus stats and frees 2 slots 'for free';
threads/phase grant bonus stats and free 2 slots 'for free';
... this list can be extended to all current recipe items without a recipe cost.

kelen's slippers grant 20 ms and 1 slot 'for free'.
i fail to see how that's overpowered compared to all other recipes of their kind (no recipe cost) already in dota. if anything it's underpowered...

imo the only reason you defy my suggestion is due to prejudice and common thinking (dagger and gem are currently considered 'overpowered' recipe components). the same thinking, however, used to dictate that bracers/nulls/wraiths couldn't be used in recipes. the inclusion of wraith band in the new ethereal blade recipe just proved that sometimes common thinking could be wrong.
open your mind
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Last edited by tuffy; 06-05-2010 at 03:26 PM.
Old 06-05-2010, 04:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

no.

thats a direct buff to dagger. And its a buff to heroes which get dagger before upgrading boots, like ES. come back on the floor again, please :S

its not like these things will turn game balance upside-down, but I dont see the need of risking balance for an item like this (all it does is saving an item-spot and giving 20 ms. I can imagine that there are more unique suggestions out there :P ).

*edit: upgrading bracers/wraiths/nulls was and is no problem for me at all, balance-wise (its a question of the proposed upgrade, not the ingredient Oo). I just think it doesnt quite fit these items.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

i was aiming at simplicity, imo boots and dagger are two items that are just meant for each other.

also not every item has to give +stats and an insanely overcomplicated passive and active skill in order to be useful.

i've researched the similar boot suggestions on this forum and all i saw as active abilities was:
'blink with makeup'(jump), 'blink with makeup'(blink with AOE damage), 'blink with makeup'(acceleration), 'blink with makeup'(uncontrollable blink), 'blink with makeup'(blink strike), etc.
even phase boots try to fulfill a very similar role (chase) and imo this suggestion could actually replace them with much better results (as phase are massively ignored atm).
so what's so feckin wrong with boots with an active ability that's just plain blink(without makeup)?

imo these boots (simple as they are) would attract their fair share of purchases per game, stealing some (but not all) from their direct competitors BoT and PT.
again imo having only 2 and a half different types of boots in dota is way too little especially as current global trends are all about diversity and equal opportunities.

P.S. shaker's crying in the corner now 'cause all your hating fissured his heart
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:40 AM   #31
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

so... no more flaming?
i was expecting this item to be more controversial than this.

also i'm in search for a better icon (although it doesn't really matter).
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

This is a good idea,but this would be too imba. :P
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:51 AM   #33
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

^maybe and maybe not, i don't think it will be.

anyway... bump
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krauzi View Post
sry T-Down because in my opinion TP scroll is a very very map control deciding item. In combination with boots it will save you one slot. I think this is a bit unbalanced.

See what I did?
Not every hero can/needs to use dagger. Same as not every hero needs BoT.
Some heroes like ES need dagger. Some heroes like Tinker need BoT.
It's the same. Not every hero needs combat mobility. They just can't abuse it.
But there are some heroes who can abuse BoT more then any other item in the game. It's "imbalanced" at the same level as BoT.

T-up at the concept AND numbers.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffy View Post
so... no more flaming?
i was expecting this item to be more controversial than this.

also i'm in search for a better icon (although it doesn't really matter).
lol we could argue for the rest of this century but unfortunately Ive got other things to do!
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:55 PM   #36
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

its probably already been said, but i think the whole point of the dagger is that 2150 if what you could spend on stats and other nice things is spent only on the blink ability. no other benefit comes from blink dagger, and the blink ability was deemed so useful that they made it so you couldnt get hit right before... so idk i think anything added on to a blinkey item is a bit imbalanced. just get a force staff if you want to have something besides displacement from your item.
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:00 PM   #37
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

BoT is balanced because.... you pay 2200 which is essential for other early game items. its a gamble. you also have to just hope that you use it enough to warrant the cost of ~ 18 tele scrolls.. but gain advantage because you can teleport to units. however... blink and tele cannot be compared. one targets instantly wherever, the other CHANNELS perpetually to a unit that can be destroyed, and tells everyone on other team, HEY IM COMING. the reason it gives extra move speed is because itd be ridiculous to only benefit from your 2700 g boots once a minute while treads give huge stats and phase boots boost damage and ms and let people chase like crazy. they decided that the boots of travel had too little use compared to those others ounless you got considerable move speed.
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Old 06-20-2010, 12:54 PM   #38
genehmster
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic_ninja View Post
... they decided that the boots of travel had too little use compared to those others ounless you got considerable move speed.
Yes, Im sure that is the story .
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Old-School-link for a item that should be old-school, but isnt even implemented (What a shame!):
http://www.playdota.com/forums/42827...rb-corruption/
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:06 AM   #39
DuskRaven
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

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Originally Posted by cepheids View Post
If you insist on having this item, throw in a 1000 gold recipe or reduce the movement speed to +50 with a 500 gold recipe.
^ If so, than t-up
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Old 06-22-2010, 01:05 PM   #40
FLY-
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Default Re: Kelen's Slippers

i like the suggestion very much, and i say fuck all the agi players whos worried about sk, shaker etc clearing a slot? i mean how many times do u actually see a shaker gettin more than the dagger,threads,agha and mby carrying a tp or a magic stick around in a regular game??

what i dislike a bit is the icon, which imo should look a bit more like the original dagger icon, and then i was thinking, now what if im playing.. lets say sandking, i get early kills and go to shop to buy my dagger, short after im pivking up my boots, the actual plan was to get threads but the items now emerged to kelens slippers? what can be done about this? :S
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