Why mkb doesn't interfere with itself on ranged?

[koticgood]

Why mkb doesn't interfere with itself on ranged heroes? If truestrike disables headshot, why can a ranged hero still proc the minibash from mkb while truestrike is active?

[Lordshinjo]

From Orb Effects - DotA Mechanics

Bash and Crit Stacking

• Melee Unit: A melee unit has no problem having a crit and a bash in the same attack (it might even have more than one bash, as explained earlier)
• Ranged Unit: When a Critical Strike triggers in a ranged unit it will override all the previously acquired bashes and crits, if a Bash that was acquired after all the crit procs then it deals it's bonus damage and stuns normally (In this regard new Basher will always be considered the last acquired ability)

True Strike disables Headshot because it is always acquired after it (except if you didn't skill Headshot at all before buying MKB)
And I guess the minibash is considered as acquired after True Strike because it is lower on MKB's abilitylist.

abilList=A1FO,A1BY(True Strike),A061(Bash),A1FQ

[koticgood]

So True Strike is a critical strike ability, not a bash?

True Strike will follow the "Bash" setting on the main table.

Quoted from that same bash/crit stacking mech page. Makes it confusing if it's a crit not a bash ability.

[Night falls]

True Strike is a 1x crit with a proc chance of 100%. Since crits never miss, it does its work.

[SoletLuna]

Originally Posted by Night falls

True Strike is a 1x crit with a proc chance of 100%. Since crits never miss, it does its work.

A multiplier of 0.

And the statement of crits never missing is false, as True Strike has the 'never miss' option enabled.

[Val]

Originally Posted by Night falls

True Strike is a 1x crit with a proc chance of 100%. Since crits never miss, it does its work.

True strike is a 0x crit with never miss. 0x works just like 1x except that it doesn't show red numbers. And crits missing or not is an option.

Edit: Wow Luna. Ninja me more.

[Lordshinjo]

Bash and Critical Strike are actually more or less the same skills, with different values.
Bash have no multiplier, but have bonus damage, and stun duration.
Critical Strikes have no bonus damage nor stun, but have a damage multiplier.

True Strike has none of theses values, so it can be considered as either of them.

The fact that it has no multiplier means that it won't interfere with other Critical Strikes, but it will still override any previous Bash bonus damage and stun duration with its own (0 and 0), like any other Crit or Bash.

[Val]

Shinjo - that served only to confuse. And true strike can't be considered either. It is a critical strike. The fact that they interfere with each other in similar ways doesn't make them the same.

[barrtender]

No, I think it's the way that the WC3 engine handles them that makes them the same. There's some post by Clogon around here that says they're interchangable and classifying something as one or the other is semantics.

Found it:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/22913...a/#post1130478

-Barr

Edit: I'm not trying to be a dick, though after rereading this it kinda sounds like it. I'm just saying that if Clogon's right (usually true) then Shinjo is fine with what he said.

[ExpertMarksman]

I think Lordshinjo is doing it wrong

[Lordshinjo]

Originally Posted by Val

Shinjo - that served only to confuse. And true strike can't be considered either. It is a critical strike. The fact that they interfere with each other in similar ways doesn't make them the same.

The fact that they're the same makes them the same.

Give damage multiplier, remove bash duration and bonus damage to a bash, you've got a crit (with red numbers and stuff)
Give bonus damage, duration and a stun effect, and remove damage multiplier from a crit and you've got a bash.
I don't see how more similar they could get.

[Val]

Originally Posted by Lordshinjo

The fact that they're the same makes them the same.

Give damage multiplier, remove bash duration and bonus damage to a bash, you've got a crit (with red numbers and stuff)
Give bonus damage, duration and a stun effect, and remove damage multiplier from a crit and you've got a bash.
I don't see how more similar they could get.

Tinker's Laser and Skeleton King's stun are the same. Remove pure damage and miss chance, give magic damage and stun, and you've got hellfire blast. Give pure damage and miss chance, remove magic damage and stun and you've got Laser.

Really man? It's the same if you remove all the effects of one and replace them with the other's effects?

Sure - they have the same core base in the wc3 engine. Does that mean all (the many) channel based skills should be considered the same??

More importantly, my point is that what you said could confuse people very easily while I fail to see any way that it could further someone's understanding of the game.

[Aetheryn]

From someone who has done some mapmaking I can completely understand what shinjo is saying. They are based off the same base skill, which both have the same elements with different values.

[Lordshinjo]

Originally Posted by Val

More importantly, my point is that what you said could confuse people very easily while I fail to see any way that it could further someone's understanding of the game.

Not commenting on the fact that your example is very poorly chosen. (Just look at a crit and a bash in World Editor)

Classifying Criticals and Bash as the same can help.
On ranged units, when criticals and bash proc at the same time, you keep only the last damage multiplier that is greater than 1, the last bonus damage (can be 0), and the last stun duration (can be 0).

I find that making a difference between critical and bash makes it harder to explain things.

[Val]

This most recent post phrases things in a vaguely useful fashion. The first one straight-up didn't. And again - talking about what happens during map making is cool and all, but I (and most) don't give a damn except when it can affect gameplay.

Your point about understanding them as one thing to get a more intuitive sense for their interactions and Clogon's point about how they have the same base skill and can therefore have multiple ones proc on the same attack despite being buff placers are both well taken.

If you reread your first post, I think you'll find that you did not really get your point across clearly and that those with less experience could be confused and end up repeating stuff like "a bash is a critical" out of context without the appropriate understanding.

[Unnamed_]

I see a cock fight here.
Now, just to mention: (nothing that isn't mentioned before)
Critical Strike and Bash use the same base skill.And at least for DotA, a Critical is considered a hit that deals your normal damage multiplied by a number.A Bash is a hit that deals your damage+bonus fixed damage, and bashes the oponent for a period of time.

But actually this is fluid - it's easy to have a bash that multiplies your damage and a critical that stuns or deals multiplied damage and bonus damage.
True Strike uses the base for Bash and Critical Strike, but has 0 on all parameters.It deals no bonus damage, bashes for no time and doesn't multiply your damage.It just procs all the time, and has the "Never Miss" option for it.
For all I found out, you're arguing whether True Strike is a Bash or a Critical.What difference does it make?But Lord is right, counting them as different things is wrong, and makes it harder to identify.

[Larvichee]

Offtopic question:
Does the minibash has 'never miss' as one of its properties? Seems like if it didn't, you could miss with it?

[Küken]

Originally Posted by Larvichee

Offtopic question:
Does the minibash has 'never miss' as one of its properties? Seems like if it didn't, you could miss with it?

the minibash of mkb has not enabled the never miss property by default, maybe the changed mkb has it? (it should, though)

[Lordshinjo]

MKB's minibash doesn't have 'never miss', and it's the same ability whether True Strike is active on it.
You can miss on the minibash if True Strike is inactive, else, the 'never miss' property of True Strike will prevent the minibash from missing.

[johnnyto333]

so if I lvl up headshot (4) then i get a MKB will i never bash with "headshot" skill again? (of course.. with MKB activated)
can it be codeable to make the bash to never miss? so... if u get a bash it will override the 0x crit and bash procc? idk...