[Remake] Liquid Fire -> Liquid Ice & Fire

[sweepberry]

Liquid Fire -> Liquid Ice & Fire

^.I think Jakiro's other head spits his normal attacks (blue projectile), then its the ice head. The fire-head spits liquid fire. The great bad thing about him is that, both heads should be equal to each other (Balance element). But why does the ice-head does less effectiveness, except for Dual Breath? Ice-head's Ice path is weaker compared to Fire-head's Macropyre. If we're talking about balance and equality, and his two head be equal to each, then we must make Ice path an equal to his ultimate. (I'm talking about the threat, and effectiveness) =/

PS. If Macropyre is so "HOT" by words, Ice Path should be so "COOL" by words.

• Current
• Suggested (Visuals)
• Suggested (Spell)
• Suggested (Spell Options)

Current Visual

Notes
• Damage type: magical
• This ability works on units and buildings.
• If used on an enemy tower, it will slow the tower's attacks.

OPTION 1:

Liquid Fire/ Liquid Ice
Ability Type: Passive (Toggle)
Hotkey: E
Note: Toggling replaces each other. (sharing spell slot 3)Option1

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OPTION 2:

Liquid Fire and Ice
Ability Type: Passive (Toggle)
Hotkey: E
Option2:
Note:

• Toggling changes the Focus of attacks.
• Toggling does not replace each other.
• Liquid Ice occupies a spell slot above Liquid Fire
• When toggling, one spell's border shines, the other doesn't. (like auto-cast/right-clicked)

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Alternative Liquid Ice Icon by Dark Rogue:

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Eye Candy proposed by rizenix:

When Toggling the skill, THD's projectile color changes.
Current projectile serves for Liquid Ice, while a 'Fire Dragon' projectile for Liquid Fire or simply change its current color into red.

Red and Blue Orbs are shown orbiting THD when both spells are ready.

Notes:

• Damage type: Magical
• Effects does stack.
• Can be toggled but still a passive.
• No toggle mana cost.
• Cooldown works separately. (Does not share cooldown)
• A blue orb orbiting Jakiro if Liquid Ice is ready.
• This ability works on units and buildings.
• Liquid Fire - If used on an enemy tower, it will slow the tower's attacks.
• Liquid Ice - If used on an enemy tower, has 50% chance to stop the tower's attacks.

• Liquid Ice's AoE can be smaller and shorter, I guess.
• And the duration for frost can increase like 1-2 seconds, a proc.

Note:
Check "Suggested Spell Options" tab for more alternative effects.

Here are the Options to choose on What to Change for Liquid Ice's Effects:

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Option 1:
Changes: Frost duration from 1 -> 1-2 seconds.

• Deals 5/10/15/20 duration damage.
• 25% chance to freeze units for 1-2 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• 50% chance to freeze Tower for 1-2 seconds.
• DPS damage from Liquid Ice & Fire stacks.
• Has 5 second cooldown to each separately.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE.

Option 2:
Changes:

- Removed Chance probability,
- Changed frost duration from 1 -> 1-2 seconds.

• Deals 5/10/15/20 duration damage.
• Can freeze units and Towers for 1-2 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• DPS damage from Liquid Ice & Fire stacks.
• Has 5 second cooldown to each, separately.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE. (numbers can be changed, but AoE's shape remains unchanged)

Option 3:
Changes:

- Removed Chance probability,
- Changed frost duration from 1 -> 1-2 seconds.
- Duration damage depends on frost's duration.

• Deals 5/10/15/20 duration damage, per 0.5 seconds.
• Can freeze units and Towers for 1-2 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• DPS damage from Liquid Ice & Fire stacks.
• Has 5 second cooldown to each, separately.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE. (numbers can be changed, but AoE's shape remains unchanged)

Option 4: (By blackfeather)
Changes:

- Removed Chance probability,
- Changed frost duration from 1 -> 1/1.35/1.7/2 seconds.
- Has instant AoE damage.

• Deals 75/100/125/150 AoE damage upon impact.
• Instantly freeze units and Towers for 1/1.35/1.7/2 seconds . (Includes enemy Heroes)
• Has 25/19/13/7 seconds cooldown.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE. (numbers can be changed, but AoE's shape remains unchanged)

Option 5: (By Sgt Failure)
Changes:

- Removed Chance probability,
- Changed frost duration from 1 -> 0.8/1.2/1.6/2 seconds. (for Main Target)
- Side units are slowed by 50% and takes 25 DPS for 2/3/4/5 seconds.
- Has instant AoE damage around Main Target.

Basicly a ranged Bash with cooldown.
Frozen units can not issue any orders.
Units are only slowed in the meens of MS, IAS is untouched.
Synergies will with ALL skills.
Makes him a potential Threat in Teamfights, as he can disable one unit.
Goes through magic immunity (Unsure about this part).
Cooldown and everything else is the same.

Option 6: (By Senjougahara)
Changes:

- has chance probability,
- Changed frost duration from 1 -> 1.5 seconds.
- Has a dps AoE damage.

• Has 50/50% chance to cast Liquid Fire or Liquid Ice when attacking.
• Liquid Fire is unchanged. (current spell)
• Liquid Ice deals DPS AoE damage upon impact.
• Instantly freeze units and Towers for 1 - 1.5 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• Has similar cooldown with Liquid Fire.
• A Blue/Red Orb rotating THD when Liquid Fire/ Ice are ready.(Orb's constantly change its color to blue/red)
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE. (numbers can be changed, but AoE's shape remains unchanged)

Note:
Numbers are not Finalized.

---

---

• About the Element Balance Issues
• Why "Liquid Ice", you ask?

• ^.Jakiro's normal attack have an Ice projectile. But Liquid Fire doesn't shows a projectile, it's an instant explosion (Sun Strike effect). So if possible for Liquid Ice, the effect would be an ice explosion like Frost Nova's effect. Frost units/structures are contain in ice.

• • Dual-Breath, Ice path, Liquid fire, Macropyre:
    [Strong]Ice-Fire, [Ave./Weak]Ice, [Ave.]Fire, [Strong]Fire

    ---

  • Above are shown depends on its effectiveness, strength and labeled according to its element. Extracting fire and ice apart, there shows that there are 2 ice and 3 fire elements involved, now it is not even.

    ---

  • Now, for the balance and equality of the skills individually, there shows that Dual Breath alone gives the balance of Fire and Ice, so it's balanced.

    ---

  • That all remains are Ice path, Liquid Fire, and Macropyre.

    ---

  • Defining on the focus of each skill, each spells comes from its different heads. Note that the heads share the Fire and Ice element individually.

    ---

  • Ice path comes from the ice head and the other 2 spells are from the fire head. Now its clear that its not even (1:2).
    Solution: Giving Liquid Fire an opposite element (Ice) with similar but different effects.

    ---

  • Now that's all left is Ice path and Macropyre.

    ---

  • Each skill are from the different heads individually. But to compare both skills, Ice path and Macropyre are the only spells that are focused to one element. Both should be equal, Ice path's effectiveness does not par Macropyre's.

    ---

  • Solution: Give Ice path's effectiveness equivalent to Macropyre's, and if possible, make Ice path a "non-ultimate" spell.
    (it's effectiveness can compare to be an Ultimate skill)
• Hope this will resolve Jakiro's problem. (Balanced Elements)
  

Note:
See "New Ice Path Suggestion" below.

• ^.The name "Liquid Ice" is derived from the compound/solution Liquid Nitrogen, it can be a "fiction" since some fictional movies shown how lethal it is, causing any solid materials, (metals, flesh, wood, etc.) are rapidly frozen to ice. can also cause Death. Talk about "Mr. Freeze" in the movie of Batman, the ice are in liquid form.
  
• Or it can be a "fact", Liquid Nitrogen is nitrogen in a liquid state at a very low temperature. It is produced industrially by fractional distillation of liquid air. Cryogenic liquids are also another example, Cryogenic liquids are liquefied gases that are kept in their liquid state at very low temperatures. The word "cryogenic" means "producing, or related to, low temperatures," and all cryogenic liquids are extremely cold. "Liquid nitrogen and other cryogenic liquids can cause frostbite to people even with brief exposure."
• Liquid Ice is a make-a-word name from fictions and of course from the facts. (Liquid because its in liquid form, and Ice because it can freeze to ice)
  Dota heroes doesn't need to be "REAL". IMO.

---

---

As for My Ice Path Remake: (LINK)

• Features
• Mechanics
• TestMap

• Creates a huge trail of ice in front of Jakiro towards the target unit/ area.
• If cast on a unit, the Ice trail chases that unit until it hits;
  If cast on ground/terrain the Ice trail will go straight forward.
• Units caught are immediately frozen on impact.
• A Snowy Field is formed on it's trail reducing movement speed when step on.
  Slow effect last until the unit steps out of the Ice trail or Ice trail vanished.
• Any units comes close/ passes within 200 AoE around a frozen unit, will be frozen by half of the skill's duration.
• Snow Field last for 6-15 seconds in random.
  Can be removed by any terrain skill effects. (eg. fissure, avalanche, etc.)

• Snow Field can is like Merucial's Spectral Dagger's shadow in "bluish-white color".
• The Ice trail used is like Invoker's Ice Wall. (can be changed)
• Icy trail may follow a unit if cast directly, or may travel forward when cast on ground.
• Ice trail "may" not go in a straight line, just like Pudge's hook, it's unpredictable.

Here's an Interpretation by MOO_COW about how the skill works.

Ice Path v1.00e.w3x (29.1 KB) by Snow37

Note:
The spell isn't final, improvements are welcomed

Reasons on Remake:

^.I do like to boost THd's skills more than it's current state.
I admit it is really buffed on 6.65, but it's just a minor tweak of numbers and not much really change the effect on his role nor the "player's impact", you know what I mean.
Come on, where are the jakiro lovers in the world nowadays. We know he is versatile yet still lacking about his skills.

This line tells "Due to his mystical nature, he has a strange affinity with the elemental forces of ice and fire." about THD that both elements are affiliate with him. Yet we see base on his skills dual breath, ice path, liquid fire, and macropyre; respectively. You can see the element fire raise supreme amongst his skills. And ice element is less focused, hence much weaker and also hard to trigger. There are 3 flame spells amongst 4 skills, yet there are only 2 ice spells on them and one of it has no damage at all and needs much of timing to a success.

To tend this unbalance, this remake will do good if any chance it's approved. Since this will boosted up Jakiro's Ice power and will make it's skill's synergy a better impact.
(As I said before, Ice path's effectiveness can be considered as an ULTIMATE)

Note:
You can still find the Old OP here:

[Captain Planet]

Hmm. It looks comprehensive but it doesn't feel very cohesive. You should really jus state what is wrong with the current cuggestion, WHY it's wrong and then explain your suggested remake. Preferably only one suggested remake because otherwise it's difficult to make out what you are trying to achieve.

[sweepberry]

Originally Posted by The_Juggernaut

Hmm. It looks comprehensive but it doesn't feel very cohesive. You should really jus state what is wrong with the current cuggestion, WHY it's wrong and then explain your suggested remake. Preferably only one suggested remake because otherwise it's difficult to make out what you are trying to achieve.

^ if your asking about Liquid Fire or Ice path.
I think my answer is under About the Element Balance Issues:
and with this remake/tweak, Jakiro can be brought back to game not as warder or babysitter. It will give a new feel for THD in the players eyes and gaming experience.

[Shadow Fury]

Eh, T-Up.

[uo111]

The post is actually so long that I didn't read it, BUT...........

That icon you got their is really sexy.

[Fate Trap]

Looks nice... But it might make him imba

[sweepberry]

Thanks guys, hope this merit to the game, which solves his balance issues on elements, as well as improving his weak skills.

@Trap Door
I think it wouldn't, since there's more imba heroes whose more threatening than Jakiro. But this remakes would turn him into a better picked hero in game.

[†GodKing†]

Very cool suggestion especially I like toggeable skills. Nice idea here. Though I don't quite fancy your ice path remake. It would be better if it's summons. ^^

[sweepberry]

^It wasn't my Original Idea (TOGGLE), it was tuffy's. Credits to him.
although I did a change from that concept.

Have you tried the testmap?

[invul_nerable]

well it might be good... null on this

[fremdlaender]

That means, basically (without all the fancy stuff you wrote in the op ^^) you want Jakiro to have either a 50% attackspeed slow or a ranged AoE bash with a cooldown. Chooseable , of course.

While this clearly is a theme improvement, I have to say that it's not what Jakiro needs.

Liquid Fire is designed to be a different kind of pushing skill. It enables you to take down towers very early as it reduces the tower DPS by 50%.

The bonus from the damage over time from the skill is actually very minor, as Jakiro has low range and can't harass the enemy heroes with this skill. It's meant to clear creepwaves quickly along with Dual Breath.

If you transfer the background of this skill to your suggestion, you will notice that this ranged bash will not help him very much. Jakiro has not the range to attack his opponents in a fight and even if he has the chance to do so, 25% is way to unreliable to make a difference.

In short, T-down, sorry.
Theme change is fine, but this effect is not fitting to Jakiro.

[sweepberry]

@fremdlaender
I didn't say "to replace Liquid Fire", I am suggesting to have another element WITH Liquid Fire, that is. As for the theme is already stated that its not equal.

But as the way you said, that this additional passive will not help THD to sweep creep waves as well as harassing Heroes. You are wrong...

Liquid Ice DOES affect towers by frosting it for around 1 second, with a 50% chance. It's stated that it has 25% chance to cause freezing effect to units it attacks (units/heroes alike) but you missed one thing about this skill, that Liquid Ice can deal DPS too, same with Liquid Fire. Not like Liquid Fire, it reduce DPS by 50%, compare to Liquid Ice it does STOP its DPS by 1 second. So its much better.

So how come does Liquid Ice not helpful to sweep creep waves or hinder to take down towers? It's even more helpful you know, Also the effects for both Liquid Ice & Fire does stack. The cooldown are separate, each has their own cd after use. The only way you know each Liquid passives are available is by watching the RED & BLUE orbs rotating THD.

And based on your last paragraph, it seems you hate chances probability skills, why hate 25% if you don't hate 15% Bash of some heroes? eg slardar, Bara, etc.
Think again.

[fremdlaender]

And I dod not say that you said you want to 'replace Liquid Fire'. :P

Regarding pushing, the suggested effect of your Liquid Ice is very minor in comparison to the effect of the current Liquid Fire and won't be used for pushing towers at all.
1 second freeze with a 50% chance and a 5 seconds cooldown means you will stop the tower's attack for half a second every 5 seconds, averagely.
That's a means it's a 10% decreased DPS from Liquid Ice in comparison to Liquid Fire's 50% decreased tower DPS.

And where exactly did you state that Liquid Ice and Liquid Fire don't share their cooldowns? :O

And I don't hate chance based skills. ^^
But a cooldown AND a proc chance is to much. It's as if you would add a proc chance to Kunkka's Tidebringer or a 10 second cooldown to Ogre's Multicast.

[tuffy]

the way u've done the ice part of liquid fire isn't that great imo. unknowingly, even you pointed that out (ironically):

So how come does Liquid Ice not helpful to sweep creep waves or hinder to take down towers? It's even more helpful you know, Also the effects for both Liquid Ice & Fire does stack. The cooldown are separate, each has their own cd after use.

the way you designed the remake one ability would always be generally stronger than the other (depending on the numbers one will always be better and thus preferred over the other in all situations). my idea is that both skills should complement each other by doing different things (having different effects). what is the point to have two subskills that do the same thing and are to be used in the same situations. in this case a simple cosmetic remake would be better as it would achieve a balance theme wise without making the skill overpowered or repetitious (as you did).

what i suggested was that liquid fire would be used for dot (buffed numbers) and powder snow (my ice skill name) would be used for slow (both attack and move). one more very important balance issue is that both must share cooldowns. the whole idea is to force the player to make strategic decisions which one of the complementary skills to use to gain the fullest advantage of the hero in different gameplay situations.
my general idea is to use liquid fire for pushing/creeps and powder snow in team clashes.

anyway, i'll try to update my thread. i also thank you for your kind words and recognition and wish you good luck. i am also sorry that my feedback hasn't been exactly positive but it was honest.

[Catholic_ninja]

didnt read all comments.. but you have inconsistent tables. one says 150 aoe for frost, one has 175 width and 375 length.. I think the frost chance should just always be 25 though. having a 10% chance with coooldown of 20 just SUCKS.

This would create a tooggle frenzy but i think it would make jak more technique savvy. t-up.

btw... is the chance to frost applied each second or right away? because if each second then forget my chance comment earlier and make it lower duration.

and with two blasts at the same damage as the balanced one blast... i think the damage should be halved.

[ParaDise.-]

mmmm.... i realy like it because makes balanced the elemental theme in each skill
i mean there one fire skill, one ice skill, one double and this would make and ability that can be changed

and about the idea is great but make it toggle in 1 slot not in two

[sweepberry]

@fremdlaender
Did I not put note for cd? my bad XD

Originally Posted by tuffy

the way you designed the remake one ability would always be generally stronger than the other (depending on the numbers one will always be better and thus preferred over the other in all situations).

You meant - "Remakes should be stronger than the current"?
Then that cannot be a problem, we can increase the numbers anytime, as long as the theme and concept are intact.

my idea is that both skills should complement each other by doing different things (having different effects). what is the point to have two subskills that do the same thing and are to be used in the same situations. in this case a simple cosmetic remake would be better as it would achieve a balance theme wise without making the skill overpowered or repetitious (as you did).

Not most spells Jakiro have are overpowered, except for Dual Breath for a spam-ability. But in case of the rest skills are definitely situational, both Ice path and Macropyre requires targets to stay on the AoE in order to reach its best performance, and both relies to each to be effective. And as for Liquid Fire, nothing much wrong except for the element balancing theme.
So what I'm pointing out is Jakiro needs a threatening spell with a proper use of time delay and strategic execution.

what i suggested was that liquid fire would be used for dot (buffed numbers) and powder snow (my ice skill name) would be used for slow (both attack and move). one more very important balance issue is that both must share cooldowns. the whole idea is to force the player to make strategic decisions which one of the complementary skills to use to gain the fullest advantage of the hero in different gameplay situations.
my general idea is to use liquid fire for pushing/creeps and powder snow in team clashes.

About your suggestion, people there commented that Liquid Fire already have Slow Attack Speed by 50% at all levels. Despite to able to affect towers.
The cooldown issue on mine and yours, are different story. Your suggestion shares cooldown and mine doesn't, it's different. And why does they share cooldown if Jakiro HAS 2 heads apart? That makes no sense at all.

About the effects, I chose a freeze and a DPS on Liquid Ice 'cause my Remake Ice Path has an AoE slow path effect.

Comparing the two:

• Your's:
  • Has MS reduction and transferred AS reduction from LF to Powder Snow.
  • Shared cooldown.
  • (I assume LF still have -50% AS to towers or is it on Powder Snow?)
• Mine:
  • Has chance to freeze units by x seconds.
  • No shared cooldown.
  • Liquid Fire is unchanged.
  • Liquid Ice does DPS damage for 5 sec. (same with LF)*
  • 50% Chance Frost towers and 25% chance to units by x sec.
  • Liquid Ice's AoE is 175x300 (175 width and 300 length).*
  • Have another BLUE Orb rotating THD, along side the Red Orb. (Isn't it Cute?)
    
    Note:
    * Liquid Ice's DPS came from the properties of Liquid Nitrogen's & cryogenic liquids. These deals harmful effects if exposed briefly, causing Frostbite and cell damage.
    Please See:Why "Liquid Ice", you ask?

    Effect: Sun Strike'sEffect: Crystal Nova's

  • Liquid Ice's AoE can be smaller and shorter, I guess.
  • And the duration for frost can increase like 1-2 seconds, a proc.

Further Notes:
@tuffy
We can share the Ice icon for Liquid fire if you like, or if you have other icons already?
And yes, I will try to improve Liquid Ice to make it stronger than Liquid Fire but LIMITED.

Originally Posted by Catholic_ninja

didnt read all comments.. but you have inconsistent tables. one says 150 aoe for frost, one has 175 width and 375 length.. I think the frost chance should just always be 25 though. having a 10% chance with coooldown of 20 just SUCKS.

Where does 10% comes from? Liquid Ice chances are always 25% to units and 50% on Towers.

and about the idea is great but make it toggle in 1 slot not in two

Well yes, but let it in the options. I too like the overlapping icons instead.
(OPTION 1)

I will Update the renewed Liquid Ice and will post it as soon as I finished it.

Last Note:
Sorry for the L-O-N-G posts XD
But I still suggest to read it, for all does explain what you may question about this remake.

[sweepberry]

Alright! Sorry for the double, I can't help it, since the prev post of mine is hella long. XD

Here are the Options about What to Change for Liquid Ice's Effects:

Option 1:
Changes: Frost duration from 1 -> 1-2 seconds.

• Deals 5/10/15/20 duration damage.
• 25% chance to freeze units for 1-2 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• 50% chance to freeze Tower for 1-2 seconds.
• DPS damage from Liquid Ice & Fire stacks.
• Has 5 second cooldown to each separately.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE.

Option 2:
Changes:

- Removed Chance probability,
- Changed duration from 1 -> 1-2 seconds.

• Deals 5/10/15/20 duration damage.
• Can freeze units and Towers for 1-2 seconds. (Includes enemy Heroes)
• DPS damage from Liquid Ice & Fire stacks.
• Has 5 second cooldown to each, separately.
• A Blue Orb rotating THD when Liquid Ice is ready.
• Liquid Ice has 150x300 AoE. (numbers can be changed, but AoE's shape remains unchanged)

If you got other ideas, please inform me, thanks!

[Dc.Nilbog]

Liquid lightning!

With variable damage

[sweepberry]

@Dc.Nilbog
No, I'm not asking for new ideas, I am referring to what other things needs to be changed in the given suggestion.