[REBALANCE] Slark

NoThlnG · 06-09-2010, 09:21 AM

Current Slark is not balanced. Essence shift and Shadow Dance is too powerful compared to other skills

You may says that other skills and stats balance it but it is just a pseudo-balances

If someone makes Mortred to have 100% chance to critical but reduces all other numbers of her skills to 10% of original, will you say she's balanced?

Or same example but with 10+1.0 str growth?

Able to be countered =/= balanced. It just makes a hero is either too powerful or too weak while what we called balance is a hero that is not too powerful and not too weak

So, I'm proposing this suggestion

For current stats, etc. Please refer here

Changes are in green

Nightcrawler
Slark

Strength - 19 + 1.9
Agility - 25 + 2.6
Intelligence - 16 + 1.5

Dark Pact - (Active, Instant)

____________________ Slark calls upon deities of the swamps to seal a dark pact. Sacrificing some of his lifeblood, Slark is redeemed of all negative effects. After 2 seconds, a dark wave of destruction emits from the Nightcrawler, dealing damage to all nearby enemies.

__ ____. ________. _______. ___. _______. __________________________.
Mana Cooldown C. Range AoE Duration Effects
1 70 10 seconds N/A 350 AoE 0.5 seconds (pulses) 90 total damage, removes buffs
2 80 10 seconds N/A 350 AoE 0.5 seconds (pulses) 180 total damage, removes buffs
3 90 10 seconds N/A 350 AoE 0.5 seconds (pulses) 270 total damage, removes buffs
4 100 10 seconds N/A 350 AoE 0.5 seconds (pulses) 360 total damage, removes buffs

Notes:
Murloc Nightcrawler takes 1/3 as magic damage (25/50/75/100) immediately when Dark Pact is cast, this damage cannot kill Murloc Nightcrawler.

2 seconds after cast, a series of 5 pulses separated by 0.1 seconds deals 75/150/225/300 magic damage to enemies within 350 AoE.

Each pulse also removes buffs from Murloc Nightcrawler.

If Murloc Nightcrawler dies, the pulses stop

Current Dark Pact cost too much hp for a low hp her like Slark

Increased the mana cost while reduced the self damage.

We have increased starting INT and INT gain with reduced starting STR so this will be pretty balanced

Pounce - (Active, Instant)

____________________ No change

Essence Shift - (Passive, Toggle-able)

____________________ Reciting ancient Nightcrawler incantations, Slark enchants his blade to steal the power and courage from his enemies. Every time Slark hits an enemy hero, he steals 1 point from all attributes of that enemy hero and gains them

__ ____. ________. _______. ___. _______. __________________________.
Mana Cooldown C. Range AoE Duration Effects
1 N/A 2 seconds N/A N/A 60 seconds Steal 1 from all main attributes
2 N/A 1.4 seconds N/A N/A 60 seconds Steal 1 from all main attributes
3 N/A 0.8 seconds N/A N/A 60 seconds Steal 1 from all main attributes
4 N/A 0.2 seconds N/A N/A 60 seconds Steal 1 from all main attributes

Notes:
Each time Murloc Nightcrawler attacks an enemy hero, 1 point of all attribute are stolen granting Murloc Nightcrawler 1 point of all attribute

Attributes cannot be dropped below 1 by Essence Shift.

When either Murloc Nightcrawler or the affected unit dies, its stats are returned to normal.

Make it to steal more in short time lasts much longer but give it a cap

This will make Slark is not situationally powerful anymore (very powerful after several hits)

Shadow Dance - (Active, Instant)

____________________ Covers himself with a dark smoke, he becomes invisible and does not reveal himself while attacking or casting spells for few seconds. Passively increases Nightcrawler's movement speed and regeneration when he is out of sight of hostile units. Has a 0.7 delay when activated or deactivated.

__ ____. ________. _______. ___. _______. __________________________.
Mana Cooldown C. Range AoE Duration Effects
1 120 25 seconds N/A N/A 5 seconds Invisibility on cast, +20% movement speed and +2% HP regeneration when not visible
2 120 25 seconds N/A N/A 6 seconds Invisibility on cast, +20% movement speed and +2% HP regeneration when not visible
3 120 25 seconds N/A N/A 7 seconds Invisibility on cast, +20% movement speed and +2% HP regeneration when not visible

Notes:
When cast, the Murloc Nightcrawler becomes invisible for 3/5/7 seconds, this invisibility is not broken by casting abilities, using items, or attacking.

While invisible from this ability's active effect, a visible cloud effect is shown at Murloc Nightcrawler's position.

Shadow Dance passively grants +20% movement speed and +2% HP regeneration when Murloc Nightcrawler is not visible to the enemy (has a 0.7 second delay on activation and deactivation).

If Murloc Nightcrawler is damaged by a neutral unit, the passive effect is removed for 2 seconds.

Passive effect does not work if Murloc Nightcrawler is affected by Doom.

The passive MS bonus is too big. 20% is enough to make it able to chase while in invis form

Make the duration scales so that this skill worth to be leveled up

Reduced the hp regen which was too big IMO

DracoLich · 06-09-2010, 09:35 AM

lol suggested STR gave him 492 hp at start

weaver like it
25 lvl: added 11.4 STR; 4.8 AGI; decreased INT on 5 points.
Remake Essence Shift (if i understood correctly): he can take only 30 agi max? That it will be unfair - low damage, low hp, low as, where is balance?
On ulti: due to suck amount hp, it was awesome. Suggested like pipe w/o magic resist. I sure for rebalance ulti, but that seems not fair.

uo111 · 06-09-2010, 09:56 AM

As far as I can tell, I agree with DracoLich.

This is a big nerf, and ruins the flavor of Slark, while not making him balanced at all, actually making him weaker, just a tiny bit tankier(not much).

Slark is one of the more balanced heroes in dota. He can gank effectively, and carry effectively, but he needs time to do so, which is counter balanced by his low hp, but his low hp is counter balanced by his ultimate. So basically he is balanced with extreme lows and highs. He isn't exactly reliable, but he isn't imba.

Fate Trap · 06-09-2010, 09:58 AM

IMO just remove the Heal when not seen and he is fine..

Linism · 06-09-2010, 10:06 AM

More like a nerf as it stands now.

I wouldn't call decreasing the damage done to self by 50 a big buff. + it's balanced out by an increase of manacost. So manacost +87%, healthcost -33%.

Essence Shift gives a situational +30 agi. Enemy loses only 3 stats. This is definitely a nerf.

Shadow Dance takes a huge nerf. First off, the active part - invisibility: 3 seconds at early game means this is just one expensive and ineffective escape mechanism by then. At max level it just amounts to 7 seconds, which because of the Essence Shift nerf and regen and mspd nerf is worth less than the current 5.5 seconds. And remember that stuff like dust and gem and wards already make this skill kind of useless anways.

Now the passive.... The %HP Regen was one of the main points of the Ulti (notice the current one doesn 't improve duration per level, just regen and movespeed) and it has been reduced to dust. 9 HP per second? Slark's Ulti is now worth a little under 2 Rings of Health, but only when the enemy can't see you. Neutraling or spamming the Dark Pact for farming just got a lot harder for poor Slark. Oh and running away while juking just got so much harder with the measly movespeed boost. Nerf.

As you can see, Essence got nerfed, Ulti got nerfed hard, and Dark Pact almost got tweaked for balance, but got nerfed anyways because the Ulti's lack of regen doesn't allow spamming anymore.

edit: I'll like to add that Slark feels balanced to me, he's got good skills, but pays for it with crappy stats.

†GodKing† · 06-09-2010, 10:10 AM

Imo remove the whole hero pls.

NoThlnG · 06-09-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DracoLich

lol suggested STR gave him 492 hp at start

weaver like it
25 lvl: added 11.4 STR; 4.8 AGI; decreased INT on 5 points.
Remake Essence Shift (if i understood correctly): he can take only 30 agi max? That it will be unfair - low damage, low hp, low as, where is balance?
On ulti: due to suck amount hp, it was awesome. Suggested like pipe w/o magic resist. I sure for rebalance ulti, but that seems not fair.

Many other agi heroes has lower than this str

And the agi gain on each hit is increased to +6 per attack, and duration to constant 60 seconds. That means, it needs less attack for Slark to reach big agi.

For ulti, I can buff it but need some thinking first

Quote:

Originally Posted by uo111

As far as I can tell, I agree with DracoLich.

This is a big nerf, and ruins the flavor of Slark, while not making him balanced at all, actually making him weaker, just a tiny bit tankier(not much).

Slark is one of the more balanced heroes in dota. He can gank effectively, and carry effectively, but he needs time to do so, which is counter balanced by his low hp, but his low hp is counter balanced by his ultimate. So basically he is balanced with extreme lows and highs. He isn't exactly reliable, but he isn't imba.

I can buff the suggestion a bit.

Ok, I'll repeat what I say b4

Current Slark is not balanced. Essence shift and Shadow Dance is too powerful compared to other skills

You may says that other skills and stats balance it but it is not balanced.

If someone makes Mortred to have 100% chance to critical but reduces all other numbers of her skills to 10% of original, will you say she's balanced?

It just makes a hero is either too powerful or too weak while what we called balance is a hero that is not too powerful and not too weak

So, I'm proposing this suggestion

Giving low hp doesn't make him balance. It just make him more very powerful and very weak. If I make Mortred with 100% chance to 5x crit but give 10+1 str, is it balance?

NoThlnG · 06-09-2010, 10:17 AM

Rapid replies....

UPDATE :
- Increased initial agi
- Increased the attribute stolen
- Buffed invis duration at early lvl

Fate Trap · 06-09-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †Reichführer†

Imo remove the whole hero pls.

this is actually a very nice idea...

kom4o · 06-09-2010, 10:32 AM

you make him even stronger
big T-down

dominator02 · 06-09-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †Reichführer†

Imo remove the whole hero pls.

Cons:
-loses the model where people want to implement it.
-waste of work for Icefrog he code.
-some fan of Slark will be mad of this.

OT:
more likely a nerf.
Shadow Dance's ms was nerfed and so he can't gank faster.the fixed regen will become useless on late game if he has 1K hp.

Essence Shift was an anti str tank skill because it removes your str which loses your hp and this one will remove it's role.

nerfing Slark who already got beaten by nukes,gem/wards and Ghost/EB will make him worthless tier.

NoThlnG · 06-09-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominator02

nerfing Slark who already got beaten by nukes,gem/wards and Ghost/EB will make him worthless tier.

- He has higher hp which means less countered by nukes
- His 1st skill get buffed in the way he get less damaged which means makes Ghost/EB less countered him and indirectly, gem/wards

EDIT:

UPDATE :
- Changed how Essence Shift works completely
- Buffed the str and nerfed the int

demondance · 06-09-2010, 11:36 AM

I agreed to cap Ess....
But there something need to be change to make him not so weak
IMO: When Slark reach his cap, the next hit he continue reduce enemy stat... but he not gain more(or re-duration of first hit and next...).
>>> Slark isnt become terrible in 1 vs 1 with very huge damage
>>> Not neft much because Enemy Hero still drop stat.

About Ulti:
Agreed with 20%
Remember he can escape or gank with skill 2... so 20% is enough for him
40% is to much...

Torchic Maniac · 06-09-2010, 02:13 PM

I don't know about this remake.
I completely agree with Dark Pact change.
As for Essence Shift, I don't really like it. I think the cap should be much high. One hyperstone and he can get max. stat steal in no time and that kinda kills the spirit of his stat stealing.

Shadow Dance kinda sucks with the changes. The regeneration does need a nerf but it was balanced by his low HP. I think he should have at least 1% percentage HP regeneration so it can scale a bit better. The duration change is needed though.

On one hand, your remake will make much powerful mid game as he can gain a lot of his power since he got most of his skills leveled and he can gank a bit more harder than being with his better stats. He might be somewhat of a competitive hero. On the other hand, his power is capped unlike his current form and he will lose a lot of his power late game.

To be honest, I have no problem with the "bad stats but powerful skills" thing. It just makes him different as Icefrog used a different way to balance a hero.

T-null

fan.god · 06-09-2010, 03:25 PM

yeah I don't think Slark is not balanced. he can rape if farmed, but can be raped if ganked early. His skills are good but his hp is very low. iirc IceFrog didn't nerf the skills of Enchantress, just her hp gain. and then her popularity instantly went down.

on your example. a PA with 100% chance 5x crit is imba. don't even need to care about hp. just phantom strike in and deal two hits.

NoThlnG · 06-09-2010, 03:28 PM

Ok, based on other's opinion, changed back the ulti to percentage based but using fixed 2% bonus.

@Torchic : That's why I made Essence Shift like that. Current Slark needs a lot of attacks to reach a decent bonuses. IMO, Slark should do less attack though with caps. Anyway, we can achieve higher bonuses but with risk of getting more magic damage

GrigorevAlex · 06-09-2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †Reichführer†

Imo remove the whole hero pls.

This,Slark absolutely unbalanced.

WorngSpelling · 06-09-2010, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by †Reichführer†

Imo remove the whole hero pls.

wd.Ripper · 06-09-2010, 04:04 PM

T-Down, the current Slark hasn't got too powerfull spells or smthing.
Hes just fine.

NoThlnG · 06-10-2010, 01:27 AM

^ Yeah, a free 2*HoT with 40% MS, attacking while invisible and possible 150++ agility is not powerful at all

06-09-2010, 09:35 AM	#2
DracoLich Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 3,609	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark lol suggested STR gave him 492 hp at start weaver like it 25 lvl: added 11.4 STR; 4.8 AGI; decreased INT on 5 points. Remake Essence Shift (if i understood correctly): he can take only 30 agi max? That it will be unfair - low damage, low hp, low as, where is balance? On ulti: due to suck amount hp, it was awesome. Suggested like pipe w/o magic resist. I sure for rebalance ulti, but that seems not fair.

06-09-2010, 09:56 AM	#3
uo111 Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,485 Blog Entries: 1	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark As far as I can tell, I agree with DracoLich. This is a big nerf, and ruins the flavor of Slark, while not making him balanced at all, actually making him weaker, just a tiny bit tankier(not much). Slark is one of the more balanced heroes in dota. He can gank effectively, and carry effectively, but he needs time to do so, which is counter balanced by his low hp, but his low hp is counter balanced by his ultimate. So basically he is balanced with extreme lows and highs. He isn't exactly reliable, but he isn't imba. __________________ My Suggestions Red Light WoW Icons

06-09-2010, 09:58 AM	#4
Fate Trap Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Where I live. Posts: 7,281 Blog Entries: 2	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark IMO just remove the Heal when not seen and he is fine.. __________________ PORTFOILO CLAIM IDEAS Click to see my portfolio.

06-09-2010, 10:06 AM	#5
Linism Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: location, location! Posts: 2,833	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark More like a nerf as it stands now. I wouldn't call decreasing the damage done to self by 50 a big buff. + it's balanced out by an increase of manacost. So manacost +87%, healthcost -33%. Essence Shift gives a situational +30 agi. Enemy loses only 3 stats. This is definitely a nerf. Shadow Dance takes a huge nerf. First off, the active part - invisibility: 3 seconds at early game means this is just one expensive and ineffective escape mechanism by then. At max level it just amounts to 7 seconds, which because of the Essence Shift nerf and regen and mspd nerf is worth less than the current 5.5 seconds. And remember that stuff like dust and gem and wards already make this skill kind of useless anways. Now the passive.... The %HP Regen was one of the main points of the Ulti (notice the current one doesn 't improve duration per level, just regen and movespeed) and it has been reduced to dust. 9 HP per second? Slark's Ulti is now worth a little under 2 Rings of Health, but only when the enemy can't see you. Neutraling or spamming the Dark Pact for farming just got a lot harder for poor Slark. Oh and running away while juking just got so much harder with the measly movespeed boost. Nerf. As you can see, Essence got nerfed, Ulti got nerfed hard, and Dark Pact almost got tweaked for balance, but got nerfed anyways because the Ulti's lack of regen doesn't allow spamming anymore. edit: I'll like to add that Slark feels balanced to me, he's got good skills, but pays for it with crappy stats. __________________

06-09-2010, 10:10 AM	#6
†GodKing† Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: PlayDota.com Posts: 1,408 Blog Entries: 9	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark Imo remove the whole hero pls. __________________ Join the Kingdom! \| PM me for Reviews and Suggestions

06-09-2010, 10:17 AM	#8
NoThlnG Forum Staff Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Nowhere Posts: 14,371 Blog Entries: 8	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark Rapid replies.... UPDATE : - Increased initial agi - Increased the attribute stolen - Buffed invis duration at early lvl __________________ Assassin's Creed Helpful Links Suggestions Epic Quotes . Credits to Lotus V Eater . . How to Get Your Suggestion Implemented Custom Model GIF Request Suggestion Assisstor's Thread Guides, Lists and Templates How to Become a Moderator . . Suggestion Portfolio My Ability Collections .

06-09-2010, 10:32 AM	#10
kom4o Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 252	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark you make him even stronger big T-down __________________

06-09-2010, 11:36 AM	#13
demondance Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 416	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark I agreed to cap Ess.... But there something need to be change to make him not so weak IMO: When Slark reach his cap, the next hit he continue reduce enemy stat... but he not gain more(or re-duration of first hit and next...). >>> Slark isnt become terrible in 1 vs 1 with very huge damage >>> Not neft much because Enemy Hero still drop stat. About Ulti: Agreed with 20% Remember he can escape or gank with skill 2... so 20% is enough for him 40% is to much...

Last edited by demondance; 06-09-2010 at 11:47 AM.

06-09-2010, 02:13 PM	#14
Torchic Maniac Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 643 Blog Entries: 3	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark I don't know about this remake. I completely agree with Dark Pact change. As for Essence Shift, I don't really like it. I think the cap should be much high. One hyperstone and he can get max. stat steal in no time and that kinda kills the spirit of his stat stealing. Shadow Dance kinda sucks with the changes. The regeneration does need a nerf but it was balanced by his low HP. I think he should have at least 1% percentage HP regeneration so it can scale a bit better. The duration change is needed though. On one hand, your remake will make much powerful mid game as he can gain a lot of his power since he got most of his skills leveled and he can gank a bit more harder than being with his better stats. He might be somewhat of a competitive hero. On the other hand, his power is capped unlike his current form and he will lose a lot of his power late game. To be honest, I have no problem with the "bad stats but powerful skills" thing. It just makes him different as Icefrog used a different way to balance a hero. T-null __________________ Suggestion Review Status: CLOSED

06-09-2010, 03:25 PM	#15
fan.god Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: even with Gem, u can never find me Posts: 915 Blog Entries: 1	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark yeah I don't think Slark is not balanced. he can rape if farmed, but can be raped if ganked early. His skills are good but his hp is very low. iirc IceFrog didn't nerf the skills of Enchantress, just her hp gain. and then her popularity instantly went down. on your example. a PA with 100% chance 5x crit is imba. don't even need to care about hp. just phantom strike in and deal two hits. __________________ BEWARE OF YOUR DREAMS

06-09-2010, 03:28 PM	#16
NoThlnG Forum Staff Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Nowhere Posts: 14,371 Blog Entries: 8	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark Ok, based on other's opinion, changed back the ulti to percentage based but using fixed 2% bonus. @Torchic : That's why I made Essence Shift like that. Current Slark needs a lot of attacks to reach a decent bonuses. IMO, Slark should do less attack though with caps. Anyway, we can achieve higher bonuses but with risk of getting more magic damage __________________ Assassin's Creed Helpful Links Suggestions Epic Quotes . Credits to Lotus V Eater . . How to Get Your Suggestion Implemented Custom Model GIF Request Suggestion Assisstor's Thread Guides, Lists and Templates How to Become a Moderator . . Suggestion Portfolio My Ability Collections .

06-09-2010, 04:04 PM	#19
wd.Ripper Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Location, Location. Posts: 2,547	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark T-Down, the current Slark hasn't got too powerfull spells or smthing. Hes just fine. __________________ Haj.

06-10-2010, 01:27 AM	#20
NoThlnG Forum Staff Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Nowhere Posts: 14,371 Blog Entries: 8	Re: [REBALANCE] Slark ^ Yeah, a free 2*HoT with 40% MS, attacking while invisible and possible 150++ agility is not powerful at all __________________ Assassin's Creed Helpful Links Suggestions Epic Quotes . Credits to Lotus V Eater . . How to Get Your Suggestion Implemented Custom Model GIF Request Suggestion Assisstor's Thread Guides, Lists and Templates How to Become a Moderator . . Suggestion Portfolio My Ability Collections .