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Old 06-16-2010, 09:01 AM   #1
SupSnow
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Default 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?


To those of you who don't know who 820 is, he has been a carry player of EHOME for years now and has been voted one of the best several times. Recently EHOME decided to let 820 play support and instead give Burning his carry role.

The build goes like this
Missile
Terror
Terror
Aura
Terror
Ulti
Terror
not sure here anymore but probably max aura

It seems like he does this every single game, and he is one of the best if not the best VS on the planet. Should we change from the usual missile maxing?
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:03 AM   #2
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I have seen many players do this too. Dont really understand why.

Post a link of a recent replay pls.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:04 AM   #3
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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you'r very brilliant...
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:07 AM   #4
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GosuGamers DotA | Replay: LGD.sgty vs EHOME

he is leinmbdjj
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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It's like Leoric leveling stun once with fixed duration. It's up to you. If you think that you can recover the damage lost (about 200) by leveling other skills during the stun duration then ofc feel free to build VS that way. I only do this on Leoric when I think that the opponent SK, Mirana will dodge it. Sometimes I max it first and use S to let'em waste Leap and SS. It depends on my mood.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:16 AM   #6
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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This would be best if you have a lot of physical hitters in your line up.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:26 AM   #7
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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The build is good. There are 2 reasons to go for such a build. First lvl 1 stun has exactly the same duration as lvl 4 one but takes less mp so u can stun more often which gives u opportunity for more ganging and roaming. Second in competitive games Vengeful might often not hit even lvl 11 so if the player goes lvl 4 stun and lvl 4 terror he might not even skill aura and that is bad. Aura and terror are very important mid-late and late game.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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level 1 missile and 4 terror:
100 magic damage (75 with base resistance)
100 terror damage (total 175)
-5 armor

bad part: using magic missile twice will get you very little total damage compared to a leveled one.

level 1 terror and level 4 missile:
325 magic damage (244 with base resistance)
25 terror damage (total 269)
-2 armor

bad part: it takes moar mana.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:50 AM   #9
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Casting more Magic Missiles >>>>>> Dealing damage with Magic Missiles.

For me, the damage output seems to be the same. Your damage + Command Aura alone + Terror is already huge. I've always play VS like this.
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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there are items that give you more mana to cast more missiles.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:08 AM   #11
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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It is a situational build that can work in league games which are focused on farming.
Since there is no/little ganging, you won't miss the extra damage of missile, and it makes no difference lategame.

Essentially this makes Vengeful Spirit a walking aura ( alpha wolf style ) that throws a stun and a wave of terror every now and then. The ultimate is usually not used cos the sexy 1200 swap range is available only at level 16 while the roaming/warding VS is severely underleveled and barely reaches level 11. Also swapping sometimes makes the VS die and then you lose the walking aura and extra stuns/wave.

Don't try this at home.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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I have been playing VS a lot for last couple of days. I did level up terror/aura more than stun at times. Never gave it much thought though.

thanks op.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Viable build for a full support venge with minimal farm, I suppose ..
The decreased dmg output helps avoiding killsteals and with the reduced mana cost Bottle and Stick should suffice as your core.

But if you don't go around wardbitchin all game, you should get your point booster soon enough anyway ...
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:24 AM   #14
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpinsane View Post
The build is good. There are 2 reasons to go for such a build. First lvl 1 stun has exactly the same duration as lvl 4 one but takes less mp so u can stun more often which gives u opportunity for more ganging and roaming. Second in competitive games Vengeful might often not hit even lvl 11 so if the player goes lvl 4 stun and lvl 4 terror he might not even skill aura and that is bad. Aura and terror are very important mid-late and late game.
This and also; venge often roams and is therefore often on low level when others are high level. Its imoprtant for the rest of the team to have that aura end terror maxed out.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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It's just a slightly more defensive build. The stun is all you need to escape from ganks, so it's leveled only 1 level. Also, being in lane with a drow, for example, mean that lvl1 mm + lvl2 terror will almost always be more damage than lvl 2 mm+ lvl 1 terror. Aura come handy to push the lane early and give more last-hitting power to your lane partner, usually a carry, and usually drow. You shouldn't take this if you're laning with a nuker, just with a carry.

Anyway, OLD BUILD IS OLD.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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gosh, i feel weird when I think of the way I play VS
its a smart way tho, i admit it, but not that appealing to me.
i still go on stun + stats till lvl 10, (swap at 6, 11, 16) then go to aura.
helps me nuke the shit out of them early game, fuck their armor and continue to nuke them mid game, not die and still do some good attack dmg.
ill try playing vs like this, maybe its good (:
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:54 AM   #17
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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You do it if there are heroes like drow or medu in your line-up.
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Old 06-16-2010, 11:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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STats venge is horribly outdated. In my mind terror should almost always be maxed by level 7, it's SO good (the reason venge is picked so much), and extra levels in stun haven't got anyhthing on more rape-wave. The question then becomes aura or stun. The thing is, aura is very good, and since venge is often underlevelled you could rerasonably expect not to be level 14 for a pretty long time. This means that unless you go on an absolute rampage because of the extra points in stun your team is gonna be an aura free zone for the part of the game when it becomes important and you start having clashes. That's bad, and that is why you should consider 820's venge build.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupSnow View Post
To those of you who don't know who 820 is, he has been a carry player of EHOME for years now and has been voted one of the best several times. Recently EHOME decided to let 820 play support and instead give Burning his carry role.

The build goes like this
Missile
Terror
Terror
Aura
Terror
Ulti
Terror
not sure here anymore but probably max aura

It seems like he does this every single game, and he is one of the best if not the best VS on the planet. Should we change from the usual missile maxing?
The fact that someone on competitive is doing great with this build means we have to change from missile maxing?????!!?!?
You're brain-washed, really.
Play the game the way you like it, not the way some competitive fuckers do it.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Heck it comes do to personal preference ofc..Personally id rather have the extra damage that would help to take down the opponent faster than giving him a chance to escape when the stun is on cd. Talking about late game when the aura comes into use, support venge is usually under levelled and hence you are talking about sacrificing her early game roaming/ganking where she shines to make sure that her team mates get benefits late game??
Sorry this is just not happening for me
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:25 PM   #21
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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totally viable, i tried it and works wonderful, highly recommended, this build is because you can't lifesteal, reduce the dmg output of enemies carrys early game and the -5 armor is a really pain in ass. terror.

plus you aument the dps of your carry to own early game. (with aura)

very useful and you dont need to much mana, one level of mm its the same duration of stun at lvl 4 and the diference only moar dmg.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonw0w View Post
totally viable, i tried it and works wonderful, highly recommended, this build is because you can't lifesteal, reduce the dmg output of enemies carrys early game and the -5 armor is a really pain in ass. terror.

plus you aument the dps of your carry to own early game. (with aura)

very useful and you dont need to much mana, one level of mm its the same duration of stun at lvl 4 and the diference only moar dmg.
You reduce enemy carry dps early game and augment your own dps early game with aura and terror ???
WTF!! you trolling or what
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:28 PM   #23
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Since a lvl 4 magic missle stuns for the same time as a lv 1 MM, what is the point in leveling it to max? Usually I wait till my terror is maxed because of its insane defense debuff before maxing MM. MM is cast to stun enemies, the damage as a secondary trait.
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Old 06-16-2010, 06:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flickor View Post
Since a lvl 4 magic missle stuns for the same time as a lv 1 MM, what is the point in leveling it to max? Usually I wait till my terror is maxed because of its insane defense debuff before maxing MM. MM is cast to stun enemies, the damage as a secondary trait.
That's right: It's because VS usually lanes with someone who gets most if not all of the farm/protection and roams much less in their games. Since the majority of damage from capitalizing on stuns and slows is physical, the missile's stun and magical damage would be equaled by the extra hits you get in. The really powerful wave of terror makes it extremely difficult to engage on a hero and certainly hurts when creeps and tower change targets to you. The lower mana costs of your spells means you can do it more often as well.

If you were against heroes with multiple stuns or slows though, or ganking other lanes, then usually the burst damage from Magic Missile would then be more attractive since it is likely that enemies would respond almost immediately.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupSnow View Post
To those of you who don't know who 820 is, he has been a carry player of EHOME for years now and has been voted one of the best several times. Recently EHOME decided to let 820 play support and instead give Burning his carry role.

The build goes like this
Missile
Terror
Terror
Aura
Terror
Ulti
Terror
not sure here anymore but probably max aura

It seems like he does this every single game, and he is one of the best if not the best VS on the planet. Should we change from the usual missile maxing?
terror max at 7 is rather standard for a while now

ns also used this build a while back
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:54 AM   #26
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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aura is good but i still think it's better left for mid-game
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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eh my main concern is the early aura might ruin potential ganks
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_j0sephz View Post
eh my main concern is the early aura might ruin potential ganks
Yes that happens quite often in public games. But VS is not used as a ganker in pro games, but rather as a support hero/babysitter/harrasser. So it doesn't matter.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:36 AM   #29
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820's build is definately the way to go on VS if you're playing roaming support with 0 farm like the Asians/Chinese often do.

VS will be very underleveled which means she needs to pick up wave and aura ASAP or else she might not ever get Aura which is bad because she's often picked to enhance a physical DPS carry like Drow, etc.

If you don't understand why the build is optimal now, you should really watch a high level replay of this build and see how they play and you'll understand why it works best.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:37 AM   #30
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphodbrx99 View Post
Yes that happens quite often in public games. But VS is not used as a ganker in pro games, but rather as a support hero/babysitter/harrasser. So it doesn't matter.
She ganks just fine as long as your OCD can avoid dumping that extra point into aura until level 8 or so
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:45 AM   #31
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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Same thing with ES leaving Fissure at lvl1.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: 820 Vengeful Spirit build viable?
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one of the best players from one of the best teams uses this build, HMMMM IS IT VIABLE??????





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Old 06-17-2010, 05:31 PM   #33
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one of the best players from one of the best teams uses this build, HMMMM IS IT VIABLE??????





Well you should at least understand the reason. Using the same strategy is not the same as knowing how it works...what is considered the norm or optimal build means nothing if your strategy/lineup is different most of the time.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:09 PM   #34
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Default venge.. 1 level stun
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Quote:
Venge should be stun/terror/terror/aura/terror/swap/terror/aura/aura/aura/swap/stats/stats/stats/stats/swap/stats/stats/stats. Stun is useless, cost too much mana, etc.
got this on another thread..
is he joking?
VS not maxing her nuke? won't that make her a less efficient ganker?
her job is to gank, gank, gank
she can't carry hard lategame.. so why?

just wanna know your opinion bout this
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:13 PM   #35
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MAX stun IMO
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:13 PM   #36
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Default Re: venge.. 1 level stun
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You obviously got trolled, or that guys just a mentally retarded boy, needing attention with his bad dotaplay.
You always max stun, it's the best singletarget RANGED stun in the game, high dmg, viable duration and very low cd, and average manacost.
You go like this > Stun, Terror, Stun, Terror/aura, depends on you lanemate, Stun, Ulti, Stun, Terror, Terror, Aura/stats, and so on.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:13 PM   #37
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Lolwut? Is this some sort of ninaed. In any case, it's idiotic. Max stun always.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #38
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Default Re: venge.. 1 level stun
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It's done for the cheaper mana cost on stun and more armor reduction on wave. You don't always need maxed stun when roaming.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #39
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Well leveling her stun has 1 advantage and 1 disadvantage.

Advantage: Increase in damage
Disadvantage: Increase in manacost

Also the stun duration remains the same.

Early game you should be ganking/roaming a lot with venge so the lower mana cost lets you do your job better.

Edit: Btw this build is only effective in serious clan wars where your team mates can fully abuse the power of howl early game.

In pubs you are better of leveling up stun and making a carry venge.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:16 PM   #40
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full support. Vs is a ganker. stun>terror>stun>stats/terror>stun.
yes, the mana cost goes up, but so does the damage. When im ganking i want to get in and out as soon as possible so the other team has no chance to respond, an take the hero out so hes as little chance as possible to escape, thus going for the nuke.
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