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Old 06-27-2010, 03:18 AM   #41
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Default How to counter Viper mid?


It might be more so.. since all he does play is viper.. he excels very well at that hero.. Tho as many others said if you're even skill you should be able to do just as well as him in lane. My guess is that viper is just his best hero.. and thus.. in this case is better than you.

Not saying your heroes own viper mid because viper is pretty solid as a mid hero but so are the ones you played with. Its just not slipping up and getting orb walked down.
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Old 06-27-2010, 03:23 AM   #42
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

well u guys forgot to mention some of the strongest laners in the game

harbinger rapes viper mid, ofc u have to skill vanish !
krobelus is at least even to viper if played correctly !
And doom, he is probably the only melee who can stand against viper mid. I mean he has high str so he can endure the harass / he can get a usefull skill in jungle and at lv.5 viper can orb walk but doom can lv. death him so doom can be even against viper imo.

thats just the heros that didnt got mentioned till now
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:23 AM   #43
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

When it's a Viper vs. Sf lane it all depends on who gets lvl 5 first, where the creeps are located (on which hill), who gets more runes and who harasses better (And that is usually the one who is on his side of the lane and the one who gets lvl 5 first)
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Old 06-27-2010, 06:18 AM   #44
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

DOOM MOTHAFUCKAS

but srsly.
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Old 06-27-2010, 06:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

If the case is:
Viper VS SF : Try to play safe and prior your Health to Last Hitting until Lv 3 or 5 where your Shadowraze already deals a decent amount of damage to harras him back. Try to use the Fog to your favor as much as possible.

Viper VS Doom : As some said before, Last Hit with Devour, other than that, try not to. When Viper hits Lv 5, start bullying him with your Lv? Death. And he'll beg for mercy.

Viper VS Silencer : CotS Owns him hard. 'nuff said.

Viper VS Clinkz : Orb Walker VS Orb Walker. Clinkz wins IMO. If you start harrasing first once you reaches Lv 2 Searing Arrow, you'll definitely gain the upper hand.

Viper VS Broodmother : Just play hide-&-seek and you'll own him slowly.

Viper VS Kaldr : This is a one-sided match like Nortrom's. Cold Feet him and he'll either go back or keep staying to be DPS-ed and frozen then take some hits from you.

And many more..... Too many too list, but Viper is not that hard to counter IMO....
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:55 PM   #46
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Bloodseeker/Treant Protector.

You won`t stop Viper,but he also won`t stop you.And Blood/Treant have more potential with gold than Viper has.
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Old 06-27-2010, 06:10 PM   #47
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zesty_Pancakes View Post
Getting 0 creep kills until you are level 6 does not count as "countering" a hero.
i can't argue with u if u haven't fully read my post...I SAID : " stay in fog of war and only come out to last hit/deny creeps" i said nothing about not getting any creep...i play like that all the time..mid or not...range or melee...and i get 30 creeps in the first 5 mins
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:04 PM   #48
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

As of a mele hero any good Blood seeker with PMS+Queling can run circles around Viper leting him hit and still out Cs him.
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Old 06-27-2010, 07:10 PM   #49
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Naga Siren

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Old 06-27-2010, 07:10 PM   #50
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesj View Post
As of a mele hero any good Blood seeker with PMS+Queling can run circles around Viper leting him hit and still out Cs him.
^ 1 problem with-that an equally intelligent viper would skill nethertoxin which will lead to your slow decrease of your health during his harass till its low enough for him to orb-walk you to death.sniper can make viper's laning hell with his fast missile speed=good cs & insane range=viper getting harassed + there is shrapnel to slow him if he tries to orb-walk you.. silencer is good to but he must save his ass later where viper will come back with vengenance
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:26 PM   #51
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Why do you all suggest silencer?

A. Viper can dispell the curse with a tango or a manual orbcast after 2/4/6/8 seconds
B. If you pick silencer in a pub (as OP said) just to counter viper, you'll have a terrible mid-late because silencer is an extremely situational pick and even moreso against a typical pub lineup.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:30 PM   #52
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulfly View Post
Why do you all suggest silencer?

A. Viper can dispell the curse with a tango or a manual orbcast after 2/4/6/8 seconds
B. If you pick silencer in a pub (as OP said) just to counter viper, you'll have a terrible mid-late because silencer is an extremely situational pick and even moreso against a typical pub lineup.
^ someone(cant remember who it was thanks to him anyways)mentioned that CotS cant be dispelled by viper's orb/tangoes. you are right about nortrom's weakness & situational play& the fact that the viper player will always come back later to kill that pesky nortrom for his early game harassment
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:11 PM   #53
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

SF & WR easly.
If Viper wants to orbwalk and you're using SF, he will easly die with your nukes. It is THAT simple.
And with WR, few days ago i picked Viper on a cm and thought "autowin", then wr owned me. Between powershot and her escape skill it's just a though lane. You can easly win a lane vs Wr, WITH NUKES. Viper got none.
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Old 06-27-2010, 11:40 PM   #54
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imnotsonoob View Post
^ someone(cant remember who it was thanks to him anyways)mentioned that CotS cant be dispelled by viper's orb/tangoes. you are right about nortrom's weakness & situational play& the fact that the viper player will always come back later to kill that pesky nortrom for his early game harassment
No
tangoes, qb and orbs dispels cots after 2/4/6/8 seconds
http://www.playdota.com/forums/243118/cots/


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If you can't accept that he's a better player than you, you don't deserve to win against him
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:07 AM   #55
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

This topic is way off. The problem here is your starting items.

List your starting items so we may begin to discuss your REAL problem here.
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Old 06-28-2010, 02:10 AM   #56
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Night1301 View Post
Nevermore can outlane him with a careful raze

Vigoss' QoP outlaned solomid viper too
No he can't.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:50 AM   #57
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrhCow View Post
No
tangoes, qb and orbs dispels cots after 2/4/6/8 seconds
http://www.playdota.com/forums/243118/cots/


@jamal99

If you can't accept that he's a better player than you, you don't deserve to win against him
thanks for the info
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:29 AM   #58
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

When against a range hero, u should probably pick a nuke hero.. Here some lists from me.

Tinker - Harassing with laser and heat missile

Brood M - spawn ur spiderling, and just start pushing tower and harassing.. He would ask for lane change for sure.

Pudge - since it is a pub game, u should try to u pudge.. Careful farm until lvl 3 or 5, ur hook would deal a lot of damage. Try to hook viper, bcoz range hero are easier to hook, beside melee hero.

And many other hero can deal with viper.. BTW, viper is a hero with low HP and fragile easily in early game..

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Old 06-28-2010, 04:35 AM   #59
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal99 View Post
I see some good choices that you mentioned like Silencer, Brood or Tinker.
But IMO, SF doesn't stand a chance against Viper unless he is much better player.
SF is one of the classic counters to viper solo middle, the other being tinker. He just doesn't do well against spammers with a good amount of burst damage. He also can't stop pushes, as was said before. Any hero with absolutely awesome nuke spamming (like Krob, Zues, and sometimes Pugna) can also control the lane against him, as well as the obvious Broodmother and Medusa. Medusa absolutely destroys a viper middle after he gets level 3 snake and level 2 mana shield, even if you get Viper Striked you're just not going to die.

He's really kinda a mid tier solo hero and he's not very good in a dual lane, which is why you never see him in competitive matches. He also can't carry as well as most other solo mid heroes, no matter how much he farms.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:37 AM   #60
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
i can't argue with u if u haven't fully read my post...I SAID : " stay in fog of war and only come out to last hit/deny creeps" i said nothing about not getting any creep...i play like that all the time..mid or not...range or melee...and i get 30 creeps in the first 5 mins
Public games!
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:41 AM   #61
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Brood.
Also, gank him and you'll be fine.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:45 AM   #62
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal99 View Post
What hero to choose to stop (or slow) his farming and dont feed him?
Don't say ganking, because it's a pub game...
Venomancer. Get 2 clarities, max Ward first and spam after 2 creep waves clash. Use the wards to push/ last hit/ deny/ harass.
Get Bottle and control runes while your wards are doing their job.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:06 AM   #63
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

KoTL can as well.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:24 AM   #64
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alia View Post
Public games!
sorry but you're mistaken
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:28 AM   #65
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
sorry but you're mistaken
That's 6 cs per minute in the first 5 minutes. I highly doubt you can do that against a decent person, especially melee vs Viper. You can prove me wrong by uploading a decent replay or 1v1 me -apom.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:31 AM   #66
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

I don't understand why people always feel the need to put their solo in mid. If you have a hopeless match up like kunka vs viper, why not just have kunkka solo the long lane and put a dual lane in mid?
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:32 AM   #67
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

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Originally Posted by burningherbs View Post
I don't understand why people always feel the need to put their solo in mid. If you have a hopeless match up like kunka vs viper, why not just have kunkka solo the long lane and put a dual lane in mid?
That's right. You don't have to solo middle at all. I actually prefer the easy lane over middle with most of the hard carries I play like Medusa and Morphling.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:06 AM   #68
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Also about the bloodseeker quelling + stout build against viper.... Nethertoxin actually similar lasthitting at this stag (do the math 56 * 1.32 (from quelling) versus 48 + 16 (>20% nethertoxin on a creep). So you dont actually outlast hit very well, meaning you dont get much bloodbath, take massive amounts of harass esp when orb comes up so no, bs has a very difficult time.

As for clinkz, yes you both can orb each other, but he has slightly better hp and str gain and nethertoxin is better for lasthitting [note play clinkz, your attack animation sucks bad and so does your proj speed, viper has 1/2 the aa and 1200>900 proj speed over clinkz] but it can be really close.

Silencer really starts owning viper at lvl 2 cots (before that a tango easily counters it after 2 seconds---mechanics though it is a bug that will be fixed soon)

As for medusa, yes mystic harassment can hurt but viper can really outlasthit her early on which is something you probably dont want.

As for doom (and treant to a bit too) you can still get some creeps and suffer through aggro, but viper will get some sick farm too

not centaur with return... ignore him and use your sweet sweet nethertoxin (he will get some creeps as nethertoxin doesnt help you deny).

rzr fairly equal but he will get decent farm off of you but you wont totally lose it and plasma field with some nice clarity ferrying works wonders

not enchant, yes he cant harass you really, but he can outlast hit you badly...

wind would be interesting (the decent nuke with decent attack animation/proj spd/damage etc vs orb/nethertoxin)

snipes (you could go for some shrapnel or try to buff your range quick) but early on its gonna be a bitch

qop - you can get the runes before viper with blink but he can really frackin outlasthit and like zues if your team is dedicating a bottle crow against the viper mid then you are doing your job decently (viper ofc reply with tangoes, salves etc)

Lion would be also interesting but your base damage is pretty frackin low and w/o the hp to take lots of orbs

zeus/tinker/sf, you will get farm, so will he, working up to bottle/crow spam will really tip it in your favour but without the ability to easily outrune an intelligent viper, one misplay fucks your entire chances up (eg. viper hits 5 first by more than like 15 seconds or you die etc)

try brood next time and use your spiders to push his towers like mad.

as for sand king and this sandstorm bs... sentry ward/ deny all of the creeps that you are sandstorming (at least the ranged from distance, 40 dps at lvl 2 sandstorm is weak compared to lvl2 nethertoxin last hits and by the time it hits like 3 or whatever, orb has no cd) and feed off the pushed creep wave.

Pucks suffers from the crappy base damage/animation and thus relegated to illus orbing for creeps and cant really deny that well

invoker--- i have no idea

I wouldnt suggest beast too much though. He does decent against SF cuz sf's early lvls have pathetic stats and then he gets his pig to start harassing, can out runewhore, and spam axes to counter razes to a bit). Against viper though he doesnt have the luxury of much higher stats and you can just orb/force him back quite a bit.


Also in the whole sf vs viper lane, there are some really good replays of pugna vs sf and literally you can just bully harass him from lvl 1 and then start the xp advantage. I could see viper doing this just as well (you will hit much harder, use orb to prevent creep aggro and have more hp until quite a few lvls)
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Last edited by Pascale; 06-28-2010 at 05:58 PM.
Old 06-28-2010, 10:28 AM   #69
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

SF owns Viper easily, Zeus does also and a good Storm.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:44 AM   #70
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWAS!!! (e_G) View Post
No. Vipers orb does not dispell cots.
2/4/6/8 sec into cots you can remove it by doing anything more or less (including singlecasting orbs), so its not as bad or as good as one would expect.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Counter Viper with Zeus or SF. I cannot possible believe you cannot win Viper.

Or pick Invoker with max-exort + wex build. If he coming towards you, alacrity on and hit him twice in hes face. Viper has less dmg than Invoker, and you can always change to meteor if he is passive.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:59 AM   #72
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Try Huskar.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:14 AM   #73
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Many of You forgot, that viper's nethertoxin doesnt work on his own creeps - his dmg isn't increasing when he is denying creeps.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:12 PM   #74
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

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Originally Posted by Qua2g View Post
Try Huskar.
I'm sorry but Huskar fails utterly, completely and painfully against Viper. I learn this bitter lesson after getting raped and seeing someone else raped multiple times
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:31 PM   #75
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

really.. hmm i thought he will do good especially when you go aggressive with spears early game. anyways i tried to help. and i failed. meh.
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Old 06-28-2010, 01:37 PM   #76
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

depends on how you play huskar. play him too offensive and you are screwed. play wise and viper is always low and scared. all you need is just a tad regen.
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Old 06-28-2010, 06:30 PM   #77
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

For those of you who think Zeus or SF or Huskar or some random melee hero outlane Viper, message me for 1v1 -apom. I'd be glad to show you otherwise.

Rules: 1 person, 1 open, 3 computer on each side (~600 starting gold + free courier), -apom, match ends in 8 min, 1 kill = 5 cs

Best cs wins.


You can pm me or find my accounts / realms in my profile.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:04 PM   #78
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunter View Post
2/4/6/8 sec into cots you can remove it by doing anything more or less (including singlecasting orbs), so its not as bad or as good as one would expect.
It is a bug that has been reported.

Is Admiral really that bad? Just ward the lane and draw creep aggro. Not saying that he will win this lane, but most certainly he won't lose it either.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:10 AM   #79
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alia View Post
That's 6 cs per minute in the first 5 minutes. I highly doubt you can do that against a decent person, especially melee vs Viper. You can prove me wrong by uploading a decent replay or 1v1 me -apom.
Believe i can do it...(We're going off topic here but..) i'll try to upload a competitive game for u so u can be sure cause i hate playing 1v1 (so boring)
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:15 AM   #80
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Default Re: How to counter Viper mid?

Well, what I remember is I win easily laned against Viper using Weaver. Since all his slow is useless against max MS.
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