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Old 07-08-2010, 09:24 PM   #1
nonamehero
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Default Item build for Alchemist?


I thought tanking items would be an overkill for alchemist since he is already very buff.
However after watching some pros replays, it seems to be standard for Alchemist to go Vanguard first and then maybe even hood!
and it seems like Alchemist is even targeted first even with Vanguard and Hood...

Can someone enlighten me on this.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Vanguard Hood treads Alche with over 9000 hp and regen but 3 armor incoming.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lories View Post
Vanguard Hood treads Alche with over 9000 hp and regen but 3 armor incoming.
huh, so u r saying the people in pros replays are doing a retarded build?
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Phase Boots or Travel
Magic Stick
Urn of Shadows
Vanguard
Assault Cuircass
Radiance

Nothing else..
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

I play alch a bit differently from normal. I usually farm like im a carry(skill greed + acid, one level stun). After I have a BoT, vladimir, radiance, and cuirass i start killing. game is usually over but if its not the next two items are probably eye and a mkb or buriz.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:58 PM   #6
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

In my opinion, there are 2 builds for alchem: Alchem Tank and Alchem Dpser:

Tank Alchem:
Any boots (Depends)
Vanguard
Hood
BM!!! (Since alchem is pretty big people usually focuss him, BM is VERY EFFECTIVE)
Tarraske (more tankish) or Radiance (to annoy enemies)

Dpser Alchem: (benefits from -armor of 1rst skill and AS enhance from Ultimate)
PT
Vanguard or Dominator (I saw once MoM, but I don't suggest this)
Perse -> Battlefury
Cuirass
Satanic
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonamehero View Post
huh, so u r saying the people in pros replays are doing a retarded build?
All I do is count. Not getting additional armor but stacking hp is a huge waste of loads of EHP for a really low price.
RoB, BMail and Domi come to mind.
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoXBoR View Post
In my opinion, there are 2 builds for alchem: Alchem Tank and Alchem Dpser:

Tank Alchem:
Any boots (Depends)
Vanguard
Hood
BM!!! (Since alchem is pretty big people usually focuss him, BM is VERY EFFECTIVE)
Tarraske (more tankish) or Radiance (to annoy enemies)

Dpser Alchem: (benefits from -armor of 1rst skill and AS enhance from Ultimate)
PT
Vanguard or Dominator (I saw once MoM, but I don't suggest this)
Perse -> Battlefury
Cuirass
Satanic

yah, I agree with those builds, however in the Alchemist guide, it discourage ppl from getting tank items and its reasoning is that it will discourage ppl from targeting you which is what u want.

However in the pro replays, they get Vanguard first almost automatic, or else they would mass bracers if Vanguard doesnt come fast enough.

I guess the guide is wrong, ppl would like to target Alchemist regardless even if he has 5 hearts, since his 5 sec stun nuke alone is annoying enough
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Alchemist doesn't seem like such a great tank compared to others, in my opinion. His armor is below average, his stats are pretty bad, but the only thing making him a tank would be his ult. But once he is out of his ultimate, Alchemist is pretty fragile.
I play a Carry Alchemist, as he is very powerful with his insanely low BAT.
Treads / BoT
Armlet
Desolator
Assault Cuirass
Vladmir's Offering / Heart / BKB
Burzia / MKB

Desolator and Acid Spray surprisingly devastate any hero, especially if he is stunned with Unstable. And after you get Assault Cuirass, you are a much better tank with very high threat factor that cannot be ignored. So, if you were to play him as a tank, I'd get something to make your presence feared, but also able to resist tons of punishment. (Armlet, Heart. Vanguard loses a lot of effectiveness later on.)
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

sobi/RoB
Urn
another sobi if went RoB
boots of travel
rad
assault
bkb/more hypers

skill:
stun
acid
stun
acid
acid
ult
acid
greed
greed
greed
ult
greed
stun
stun
stats
ult
etc etc

always acid before you stun, as stun is physical and is therefore reduced by armor. drop sobis/urn when you ult, and pick them back up for more regen. have to repeat this every time your int changes (ie: items, level up, OD).
spam your shit. acid is really gay to lane agaisnt, and don't be afraid to release your stun if it isn't fully charged, especially if they are trying to juke. better safe than sorry.

best allies: venge, slardar, CM, naix, drow, etc
worst enemies: venge, slardar, silencer, doom, anyone who can burst you down before your ult
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:20 PM   #11
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dai Ca View Post
Alchemist doesn't seem like such a great tank compared to others, in my opinion. His armor is below average, his stats are pretty bad, but the only thing making him a tank would be his ult. But once he is out of his ultimate, Alchemist is pretty fragile.
I play a Carry Alchemist, as he is very powerful with his insanely low BAT.
Treads / BoT
Armlet
Desolator
Assault Cuirass
Vladmir's Offering / Heart / BKB
Burzia / MKB

Desolator and Acid Spray surprisingly devastate any hero, especially if he is stunned with Unstable. And after you get Assault Cuirass, you are a much better tank with very high threat factor that cannot be ignored. So, if you were to play him as a tank, I'd get something to make your presence feared, but also able to resist tons of punishment. (Armlet, Heart. Vanguard loses a lot of effectiveness later on.)
Armlet seems like a good choice on him.
However after watching at least 5 pro replays of Alchemist in action, none of them got armlet.
I really think armlet is more for pubstomp than competitive plays.
Since Alchemist really shines as support/tank.
His stun has such a low cooldown, it is insane.
And he is not like Centuar or Bristleback who everyone can ignore without radiance, everyone still want to kill Alchemist first just because of acid and nuke
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Personally I always choose to go ganking route rather than hardcore ricing.


>URN< is awesome. Percentage based regeneration is teh shit when you drop and pick up when ultimate transformed. As for boots, you'll do great with either. As for other items, I've become a fan of blademail, but it's really hard to go wrong (much like vengeful.)
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Old 07-08-2010, 10:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Watch some MYM|PlaymatE replays on ESWC, i like his item build and playstyle.

Here some ;

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: OK vs MYM

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: MYM vs Nv.GiGa.int

GosuGamers DotA | Replay: MYM vs DTS
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

I usually go Phase/BoT, Radiance, Armlet, Assault and game usually ends...Sometimes i add hood too.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

If you got lots of money you could get these:

PT(str)
Assault
Butterfly
Satanic
Radiance
Heart/Basher
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Get Radiance first, then build whatever the fuck you want after that. This is situational and it has worked before but you have to be pretty lucky. You might want to go for a DPS type of build in most cases.
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Old 07-08-2010, 11:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

I prefer ganking Alchemist early. Vanguard just allows you to dive even more and it covers for non ult form Alch, just in case if you fuck up a stun (it happens). Then I usually get Armlet/Deso/Vlads. Armlet is way too cheap for him, he regens the degen off and 65 damage with his AS is no joke. Deso is deso, and Vlads is for Lifesteal + Mana. AC is also cool.
Roaming Tank build also works, so does Ricer, he can be played differently.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

tank build works if you act like a huge dick on allchat so everyone will want to kill you and type "LOL?" back at you.

Otherwise radiance/armlet like everyone else said, give or take vg depending on lineup.
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:23 AM   #19
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Travels, Radiance, Assault Cuirass, Heart, Attackspeed and maybe basher or bkb if you feel like it.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Treads, if your farm is going great, get a Radiance

HoT, AC, MKB
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonamehero View Post
huh, so u r saying the people in pros replays are doing a retarded build?
Yes. That build sux actually. They just think 'hmm what's the imba tanking item of the month' and get it w/o thinking. The no.1 priority for alche is armor. Vanguard is just pointless on him and hood has always been notoriously cost inefficient. It's understandable though, since alche is a relatively new pick on the competitive scene, that no one knows how to build him.

For the cost of vang+hood you can complete strength PT, belt of giant strength, platemail, plainswalker cloak, which is like way better. The belt goes into your basher and platemail into your assault, and leave the cloak as it is. You'll notice that they often get phase boot instead of ptreads- which again makes no sense because his ulti gives him +60 ms. Finally they get radiance which is like the silliest item of them all.

The alternative build is armlet-vlads. Not only does it give him a ton of armor, but when his ult is up ( along with armlet ), he is a really, really beastly tank carry. Follow up with desolator and bkb.
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Old 07-09-2010, 03:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

This guy is a troll if he thinks radiance is bad on Alch. Its THE item for alch bro.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zesty_Pancakes View Post
This guy is a troll if he thinks radiance is bad on Alch. Its THE item for alch bro.
You mean, it is THE most fail item on alch if you're not playing farming alchemist.
If you're leveling spray and maxing greed first, and getting 15 min radi, then proceeding to farm 20k items in the next 20 min, then yeah it's the best item for that strategy.

Not saying that farming alchemist is a bad strategy, just that it is not the strategy played in those games. Hence the epic fail.
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:20 AM   #24
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Kelen's Dagger of Escape. #1 item on Alch.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphodbrx99 View Post
Yes. That build sux actually. They just think 'hmm what's the imba tanking item of the month' and get it w/o thinking. The no.1 priority for alche is armor. Vanguard is just pointless on him and hood has always been notoriously cost inefficient. It's understandable though, since alche is a relatively new pick on the competitive scene, that no one knows how to build him.


agree with this. travels is the better boots choice for him though since you can tp farm huge waves and just rack up the gold. radiance helps for that too. after that assault cuirass is probably the best item you can get. should always get assault > vlads IMO

if i want the block i just get the pms. alchemist needs neither more +hp regen or + hp.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:03 AM   #26
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Ganking:
Boots > PTreads
RoB > Vlad
Urn
Magic Stick (Have to have it on everyone)
then Assault Cuirass

Farm:
PTreads
Armlet of Mordiggian
Radiance
Assault
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

^ you fail if u get ptreads for farm build.
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Old 07-09-2010, 08:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphodbrx99 View Post
Yes. That build sux actually. They just think 'hmm what's the imba tanking item of the month' and get it w/o thinking. The no.1 priority for alche is armor. Vanguard is just pointless on him and hood has always been notoriously cost inefficient. It's understandable though, since alche is a relatively new pick on the competitive scene, that no one knows how to build him.

For the cost of vang+hood you can complete strength PT, belt of giant strength, platemail, plainswalker cloak, which is like way better. The belt goes into your basher and platemail into your assault, and leave the cloak as it is. You'll notice that they often get phase boot instead of ptreads- which again makes no sense because his ulti gives him +60 ms. Finally they get radiance which is like the silliest item of them all.

The alternative build is armlet-vlads. Not only does it give him a ton of armor, but when his ult is up ( along with armlet ), he is a really, really beastly tank carry. Follow up with desolator and bkb.
rofl, i love these forum pros and their theorycraft. you don't even know the reasoning and timing behind items, not to mnetion have no experience with them yet you talk crap about tried-and-true builds that have been around for months and used by much better players.

tl;dr - stfu.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Everyone seems to be going radiance on him which is ok I think, but i prefer Cuirass. The main point is making him a target for the enemy and cuirass does this just as well as rad does, plus it greatly synergizes with him on all fronts: -armor with his spray, AS with his low BAT and armor for his low armor. Exceptions are to cancel daggers and/or if you have a morphling in the team.

I usually go RoB, stick --> wand, phase boots --> Cuirass --> vlads/pipe/other team items.

Oh and armlet can be a great item if you need dps.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

vanguard is good because of alche's low armor. the mechanics are that way, blocks are counted before armor.

use sobi mask to get infinite mana. just drop and pick it up after you used ult and it'll increase the mana regen from your ult by 50%.

heart lets you stay alive even after your ulti. also gives you 40 damage and decent hp. problem is that it costs a lot.

AC is obviously great.

blink dagger is nice but i'd say situational.

for DPS get bkb, hotd, deso, mkb, buriza, basher. there isn't a big difference in the overall dps/gold ratio but they all do it a little different.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:45 AM   #31
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

I rush Satanic, then Radiance, then Travels, then AC, BFly, Rapier
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Anyone who has posted without the word "Armlet" is going to have to explain to me why Alchemist, of all characters, would pass that up. His ult lets you gain health with Armlet on. Why on earth would you not go Armlet?

Also, I would definitely go Radiance, because Goblin Greed works insanely with that, both allowing you to farm it and allowing you to mad farm after it with your AOE damage.
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

^ why make an armlet when you could make an assault with 2 more minutes of farm? armlet is great and all, but there are better items considering how fast alch can farm with rad and GG
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Old 07-09-2010, 09:56 AM   #34
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

^This
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:40 AM   #35
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

radiance people, i advise leveling the acid. its surprisingly good.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

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Originally Posted by doomsheep View Post
vanguard is good because of alche's low armor. the mechanics are that way, blocks are counted before armor.

use sobi mask to get infinite mana. just drop and pick it up after you used ult and it'll increase the mana regen from your ult by 50%.

heart lets you stay alive even after your ulti. also gives you 40 damage and decent hp. problem is that it costs a lot.

AC is obviously great.

blink dagger is nice but i'd say situational.

for DPS get bkb, hotd, deso, mkb, buriza, basher. there isn't a big difference in the overall dps/gold ratio but they all do it a little different.
No. Vanguard is exactly as good on a high armor hero as on a low armor hero. Lets do a simple calculation. If D is damage dealt and B is block damage, and A is the reduction due to armor then:
Dmg taken without block: D*(1-A)
Dmg taken with block: (D-B)*(1-A)

Ratio of dmg taken with block to damage taken w/o block = (D-B) /D.
The armor factor has been eliminated.

Vanguard complements high armor, and high armor complements vanguard. That's why vanguard DK or Shiva's Tidehunter is such a beastly tank.

If you don't believe the efficiency of armor and damage block, do the following tests in the single player. Pick Tide , lvlup him to level 25 and buy a Shiva's, then go autoattack the first enemy tower. Check it with both Kraken shell and shiva, then without Shiva, then without either Shiva or Kraken. You'll be amazed how much of a difference it makes.

Heart is awful. It costs way too much for what it gives you- and his ultimate is the same thing as heart anyway , with regen that WORKS in combat. It's a totally fail item on him period.

Alchemist w/o armor is just a fail tank period. It is about as useful as a boots+wards feeding Tidehunter. Now I know that competitives have their own reasons for doing boots+wards feeding Tidehunters or boots+wards feeding Alchemists for that matter since they don't need any item to cast their spells. Just that if you did want to make him a tank carry, armor needs to be the #1 priority over anything else.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:50 AM   #37
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

^ Wow, captain obvious here.
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:21 PM   #38
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_j0sephz View Post
^ you fail if u get ptreads for farm build.
Ptreads are always good. TP is situational- you can always carry a tp anyway. BoT is just too costly for an early game investment.
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:32 PM   #39
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

I think alch is too good a hero to pass up his farming skill with acid spray/goblin's greed and is more suited to ricing instead of ganking at least in competitive games (if you want to use his full potential). As for the items I would go for a vanguard, radiance and after that it doesn't matter that much. The world is your oyster!
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Old 07-09-2010, 12:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: Item build for Alchemist?

Treads RoB Vanguard Radi AC. Gives him the tankyness + Radi. RoB + clarities + ult spam should be enough mana for more of a carry oriented build.

I do like to play ganker Alche though with Dagger. It's super awesome being able to pop a 5 sec stun out of nowhere on unsuspecting enemies.
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