[BUFF/TWEAK] Invoker's Wex game play

[ZeldaFreak75]

Reason: http://www.playdota.com/forums/280405/wex-invoker--bad/
Invoker's current spells: Invoker - DotA Hero Details

My suggestion:
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Wex
12/10/10

Upgrading this skill will give you +2 Agility and Movement Speed.
+3/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+2 m/s
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EMP

edited 10/14/10: max burn is now 500
Rescale: mana burn:140 / 200 / 260 / 320 / 380 / 440 / 500

My comment: Rescaling the mana burn is a response to the changes of the game such as Arcane Boots and Soul Ring. Maximum 200 damage -> 250 damage is reasonable.
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Tornado

Adding a new effect: Deals 2% of a unit's maximum HP per 400 distance traveled. 16% cap due to 3200 range. Damage type: physical.

My comment: This will make Wex's tornado range more viable; this isn't broken if you do the math. All of the current effect stays the same.
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Alacrity

Add: Reduce cooldown based on Wex: 15/14/13/12/11/10/9 seconds

My comment:
90 attack = 4500 gold | 90 AS = 3000 gold
Don't forget Alacrity contains 1 Exort 2 Wex; So ideally, Wex's effects > Exort's Effect. So having a cd reduction WOULD bring reason to play Wex as primary and balancing it out.
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[(TK)WhiteWolf]

Interesting suggestions, I agree about Wex, I think even a max of 600(300 dmg) would be acceptable(seeing that your only powerful in a W focused could be it, so it need to have a better impact on game).

Alacrity Wex is interesting, but if you do this, you will buff more WE invoker and cause alacrity to be overused.

The ghost walk change isn't necessary, invoker don't do the Clinks style with a 200 manacost, and to do that probably you will need to nerf the duration, what I think is bad.

Tornado have a decent buff from Q and from W, I don't think it need more, the concept is interesting, but I don't think that meets a tornado style.

Wex change AS% to just AS could be interesting, will buff greatly his early Wex game and nerf his late. But I still think that this AS need to change and not buffing. Even with doubled values the AS would be useless.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Actually why not decrease the early EMP channeling time and add % or int factor mp burn instead?

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

Another interesting suggestion I would say.

[LEM0NS]

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

Wex change AS% to just AS could be interesting, will buff greatly his early Wex game and nerf his late. But I still think that this AS need to change and not buffing. Even with doubled values the AS would be useless.

AS% and AS are the same thing...

derp

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

Are the same thing in effect, but have a great difference in early to late game.

% is stronger in late, and fixed values are stronger early. Is that what I wanted to say.

Am I wrong about that difference(I am not a master in number calculator about this mechanics, so if I am wrong correct me)?

To show a example of it we can get Basilius and Sobi Mask. Basilius regen a fixed rate, and Sobi regen % based rate. What is stronger(regen more mana) early and what is stronger late? This doesn't apply to AS?

[ZeldaFreak75]

Originally Posted by Kasad

Actually why not decrease the early EMP channeling time

Buffing this is fine but i don't feel like it is necessary. Want to give me some numbers for scaling?

Originally Posted by Kasad

and add % or int factor mp burn instead?

That would make Wex WAY too versatile, that will counter int and str.
In my opinion, Quas = Str, Wex = Agi, Int = Exort.
Ideally Str > Int, Agi > Str, Int > Agi.
Thus EMP shouldn't own Int heroes.
Quas obviously own Int heroes with Reg and Cold Snap
Exort obviously own Agi heroes with GG nuke and damage
Wex obviously doesn't own Str heroes now, that's why i made this thread. 550 mana burn looks good on paper against str heroes but if you still think it's weak then just buff the mana burn more; I don't think basing it on % or int is necessary.

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

Alacrity Wex is interesting, but if you do this, you will buff more WE invoker and cause alacrity to be overused.

Then Wex primary is viable, isn't that what we want? You can't win the game with just Alacrity.

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

The ghost walk change isn't necessary, invoker don't do the Clinks style with a 200 manacost, and to do that probably you will need to nerf the duration, what I think is bad.

Invoker can be a clinkz LOL; I do it all the time with Wex. Grab a DD rune invoke Ghost Walk > Alacrity > Tornado; since you say it doesn't work then why not make it a viable strategy. Invoker is a int so 200 mana cost is neglectable. I don't see why the duration is imba.

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

Tornado have a decent buff from Q and from W, I don't think it need more, the concept is interesting, but I don't think that meets a tornado style.

As I stated above, Wex has nothing against Str heroes BUT EMP; I do agree Tornado had received alot of buffs, but this one will add power against str heroes.

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

Wex change AS% to just AS could be interesting, will buff greatly his early Wex game and nerf his late. But I still think that this AS need to change and not buffing. Even with doubled values the AS would be useless.

that's exactly what i want to do; you have Alacrity so it won't nerf your late game that much, it gives 90% AS.
Do you have any suggestion on Wex then?

Originally Posted by LEM0NS

AS% and AS are the same thing...

derp

nice try, try again LOL

[Heelz]

He's right, attack speed is only calculated one way. Having a % in front doesn't change anything. If anything, they need to do away with all % when referring to attack speed.

Attack Speed - DotA Mechanics

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

I would say that the most important buffs are EMP and IAS of Wex. The other could be done, but with extremely caution, because you are changing spells that are considered good/balanced.

As a lot of people stated in other threads a long time ago, Wex could give mana regen, or a lot of other effects. Honestly I don't know how to turn Wex in a good use(based in your logic[Agi>Str]), If depends of my opinion I would like more if wex have his AS bonus removed and his MS buffed.

EMP just need to be or more powerful(scales until 600 likes fine for me) or more accessible(reduce his mana cost/CD), the second would be my favorite. I think EMP is good, but have a great mana cost and it power comes in early when his numbers cause some damage, but sadly his manacost cause it to don't be a good option early when you don't have mana regen.

I don't think spam EMP would turn imba, you will have a good lane control(while the enemy have mana, after he can just ignore your EMP) and the delay(even 2 sec isn't so much, but is still a problem against smart enemies) would turn the spell balanced imo.

If you want some numbers I would say:

CD from 25 to 20(Like cold snap).
Mana cost from 125 to 90(maybe 80).
Rescale manaburn capacity as you said(maybe a little less to balance with CD change and mana cost)

Just this would make EMP a lot more attractive.

[xat]

IMO:

The problem with wex, and a wex based invoker build, is not a lack of attack speed. Therefore to improve it by increasing attack speed would not really do a lot. I dont think wex should have mana regen, as regen is more appropriate to quas, but something along those lines would be best.

I think wex should add 1% movespeed, 1% evasion and 1% magic resistance per level per instance (21% of each at max). This fits the theme of wex - improving speed makes it harder to hit the invoker, plus the old invoker had a magic resistance spell based around the level of wex.

In terms of boosting spells, the only one that really needs to be improved is the wex signature spell - EMP. I think simply boosting the amount of mana drain would do the trick, OR reduce the CD and mana cost.

I dont think the other spells should be touched, as they are quite well balanced, and any more improvements would make invoker overpowered. Dont forget when you boost wex based spells, you are not only improving a wex build invoker, but also E and Q style builds that incorporate wex.

Alacrity has already had its IAS component recently buffed - reducing its CD would make it way too OP. Same with ghostwalk - there could be a general reduction in CD and/or mana, but it shouldnt get so low as 12 sec CD.

In sumary:

1. Add evasion and magic resistance to wex reagent
2. Boost mana drained from EMP OR reduce CD and mana cost

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

The evasion and the magic resistance fits the Wex theme, good suggestions, but I don't know i it won't be considered OP.

It sounds OP, but with his lack of armor and HP the skill fits very well to the ganking oriented version that we are playing. Another thing is... if you focus on Wex you have weak disables(most of them) and other nukes(meteor for example). So getting this reagent would be good, but still not the best option compared to others(and is that what we want).

[dismydevil]

I also think emp is the main problem for wex which should go upto 650 damage and wex itself need a buff with about 3% AS and 3% MS I think AS % would be better late game.

help support my invoker buff http://www.playdota.com/forums/27991.../buff-invoker/

[ZeldaFreak75]

Originally Posted by xat

The problem with wex, and a wex based invoker build, is not a lack of attack speed. Therefore to improve it by increasing attack speed would not really do a lot.

yes, it would. Long time ago, Quas was remade because it was worth 2756 gold compared to Exort 3500 gold(now is 3150); Wex needs to be rebalanced too. Assuming Wex = 2 Yasha 4400 gold; 2 Yasha gives 62 A/S, 20% M/S (assuming the price drop because of agi give no damage to invoker).

Originally Posted by xat

I dont think wex should have mana regen, as regen is more appropriate to quas, but something along those lines would be best.

Imo, it fits Exort more.

Originally Posted by xat

I think wex should add 1% movespeed, 1% evasion and 1% magic resistance per level per instance (21% of each at max). This fits the theme of wex - improving speed makes it harder to hit the invoker, plus the old invoker had a magic resistance spell based around the level of wex.

Why not give armor, since 3% evasion isn't going to do anything at level 1. Magic resistance fits Quas more.

Originally Posted by xat

I dont think the other spells should be touched, as they are quite well balanced, and any more improvements would make invoker overpowered. Dont forget when you boost wex based spells, you are not only improving a wex build invoker, but also E and Q style builds that incorporate wex.

I disagree, Wex components in the spells are bad. Only good thing is Deafening Blast

Originally Posted by xat

Alacrity has already had its IAS component recently buffed - reducing its CD would make it way too OP. Same with ghostwalk - there could be a general reduction in CD and/or mana, but it shouldnt get so low as 12 sec CD.

Fine Ghost Walk might be imba i am going to remove it on my list but NO to alacrity.
can invoker just use alacrity to win the game? NO
Alacrity is weak on the wex part
90 attack = 4500 gold | 90 AS = 3000 gold
Don't forget Alacrity contains 1 Exort 2 Wex; So ideally, Wex's effects > Exort's Effect. So having a cd reduction WOULD bring reason to play Wex as primary and balancing it out.

Originally Posted by dismydevil

I also think emp is the main problem for wex which should go upto 650 damage and wex itself need a buff with about 3% AS and 3% MS I think AS % would be better late game.

help support my invoker buff http://www.playdota.com/forums/27991.../buff-invoker/

yes, emp is the main problem.

dude, really 3% ms; i am assuming then you have 63% m/s 3x7x3. 280+50(boots of speed) * 1.63 = 537.9 WAY TOO IMBA. I already saw your thread before i make this one.

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

dude, really 3% ms; i am assuming then you have 63% m/s 3x7x3. 280+50(boots of speed) * 1.63 = 537.9 WAY TOO IMBA. I already saw your thread before i make this one.

Sorry if I am wrong, but isn't a problem with Wex that it only apply bonus to the Invoker speed? And ignore the boots MS? I think I remember something like that, if I am wrong correct me, but I remember something like that(maybe mentioned in a Kasad topic if I am right). Sorry if I am said a wrong thing, but I would like to know about that the correct information.

[ZeldaFreak75]

Originally Posted by (TK)WhiteWolf

Sorry if I am wrong, but isn't a problem with Wex that it only apply bonus to the Invoker speed? And ignore the boots MS? I think I remember something like that, if I am wrong correct me, but I remember something like that(maybe mentioned in a Kasad topic if I am right). Sorry if I am said a wrong thing, but I would like to know about that the correct information.

no, it depends on your total speed; for example
(Invoker's speed + BoT + Eul) * 3xlvl7wex.
(280 + 95 + 25) * 1.21 = 484
get those item and type -ms if you don't believe me.

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

Ok, I believe, I just remembered some day I saw something like that, but probably was a wrong idea.

I just didn't have time to test because of this I asked just to have sure.

[ZeldaFreak75]

need more feedback

[(TK)WhiteWolf]

I think you should edit your first post with your conclusions or what you thinked more viable, so people can read and understand fast what need to be discussed.

In the current way we have a lot of different opinions, so nobody knows what helped or not.

[fr0zenknife]

DON'T BUFF EMP IT IS AS ANNOYING AS IT IS AND IT DESTROYS INITIATORS. I am ok with rest, T-up for rest.

[ZeldaFreak75]

Originally Posted by fr0zenknife

DON'T BUFF EMP IT IS AS ANNOYING AS IT IS AND IT DESTROYS INITIATORS. I am ok with rest, T-up for rest.

Isn't that the role of Wex? What your saying is like OMG METEOR IS IMBA DON'T BUFF THE DAMAGE; yet IceFrog did (i forgot what version).

My Reason for buff: Arcane Boots, Soul ring. Emp with 550 mana burn isn't going to carry to late game same goes to 400 mana burn. If you play a Wex invoker you will know what I mean.