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Old 08-16-2010, 01:52 PM   #1
ark-eXodia
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Default The Most Hard Carry?


who do you think is the most hard carry hero in the game that was really undefeatable when full geared and fight him in 1vs1.
i think it was:
1.jarakal
2.void
3.naga siren
4.spec
5.morted
6.magina
7.terror blade
8.rikimaru
9.phantom lancer
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:55 PM   #2
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Obsidian is one of the best yet for some reason not on this list.

Also go use search function there are 10,000 useless threads like this in archive. We don't need another pub -em thread in strat with completely unrealistic scenarios.


In no particular order all of the following are notable in 1v1's

Void
Tiny
OD
Pudge
Tinker
PL
Naix
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:55 PM   #3
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Remove Rikimaru and Magina, add Medusa and Destroyer. That would be my list, not in order. Morphling could deserve a spot too.

EDIT - Didnt see 1v1, as you know Dusa is more a 5v5 hero.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-D-D-D-Dora View Post
Obsidian is one of the best yet for some reason not on this list.
Use BKB and Destroyer will be killed.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:02 PM   #5
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oh thanks i forgot those two,and what about slark?
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokokichi2 View Post
Use BKB and Destroyer will be killed.
While OD walks away from you ignoring your bkb or better yet just hides himself and wastes your duration. This is 1v1 not 5v5, bkb is a stupidly weak item because heroes can just dance around for the 5-10 seconds it is active.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:06 PM   #7
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slark is really easy to use
i think tinker is a hard carry to play cuz you need to farm very well
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:08 PM   #8
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Medusa ofc and after imo TB. Siren if you plan to push the base with ultimate

Troll and riki are definitely not for 1v1.

Tiny and Pudge are not that good in real 1v1 situations: because tiny's nukes get naturally weaker through the game and it's dodgeable, because Pudges need often help to finish heroes if he manages a good hook/dismember.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:10 PM   #9
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this discussion goes nowhere.

a CM with refresher EB dagon5 could probably kill anyone, it means nothing.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphodbrx99 View Post
this discussion goes nowhere.

a CM with refresher EB dagon5 could probably kill anyone, it means nothing.
Your giving away my tinker build!
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galuf View Post
Medusa ofc and after imo TB. Siren if you plan to push the base with ultimate

Troll and riki are definitely not for 1v1.

Tiny and Pudge are not that good in real 1v1 situations: because tiny's nukes get naturally weaker through the game and it's dodgeable, because Pudges need often help to finish heroes if he manages a good hook/dismember.
for riki i kinda agree, but troll?he was the most perma basher hero in dota so it makes no senses fight him in 1vs1.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galuf View Post
Medusa ofc and after imo TB. Siren if you plan to push the base with ultimate

Troll and riki are definitely not for 1v1.

Tiny and Pudge are not that good in real 1v1 situations: because tiny's nukes get naturally weaker through the game and it's dodgeable, because Pudges need often help to finish heroes if he manages a good hook/dismember.
Tiny has two disables + craigy which is all he needs to be good in 1v1. He trashes any attack based late game hero with his disables and naturally good damage. The main issue is that people try to make tiny a caster after early-->mid because it is harder to build him up as a late hero.

Full inventory pudge that bites you twice with aghs is going to kill almost any hero. EB Dagon Bite Hex Refresh EB Dagon Bite Hex whack whack whack if they are somehow still alive.

Troll sucks shit

All he has is some IAS skills and a 10% bash. He gets shit on by MKB/EB/Manta.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:17 PM   #13
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Void should be at number one...
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-D-D-D-Dora View Post
Tiny has two disables + craigy which is all he needs to be good in 1v1. He trashes any attack based late game hero with his disables and naturally good damage. The main issue is that people try to make tiny a caster after early-->mid because it is harder to build him up as a late hero.

Full inventory pudge that bites you twice with aghs is going to kill almost any hero. EB Dagon Bite Hex Refresh EB Dagon Bite Hex whack whack whack if they are somehow still alive.

Troll sucks shit

All he has is some IAS skills and a 10% bash. He gets shit on by MKB/EB/Manta.
yeah troll is really shit against those three,especially manta or illusions heroes.
late naga siren can pawned him in instant, without any fights
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #15
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Spectre...
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:31 PM   #16
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There is not just 1 that wins against everything. For example, Permabashers get owned by Tiny / Tinker / OD / Lion / Lina. Then those heroes get owned by Naga / CK / PL. Syllabear powns the rest. But mainly, it's all about item builds.

Tinker for example can be build in such a way that he probably can kill any of the above heroes. Hex / Orchid / bkb against burst damage nukers, Dagon5 + EB against permabashers , shivas + eb + march against illusions, linkens / bkb against stunners. All he needs is 2 items to counter every fucking hero in the game , and then stack 4 soul bousters or whatever else gives him a mana pool big enough to spam his shit non stop (4 x hex , 4 x soulbouster , 4 x orchid or whatever).

And yes , Tinker Kills Void sadly. Get a dagger + eb + dagon 5. Void blinks in to cast chrono, you double click dagger you are out of his chrono. Now go eb-->dagon 5---> rearm--->eb--->dagon 5---> rearm. The 3rd or 4th time he should be dead most probably. Getting a hex is overkill imo

Interesting things to mention : CK's ulti gives him 100% damage illusions. Getting 5 Hots + a manta means that ck has : 25x2.9 + 60 (base dmg) - 17 (starting str) + 20 (from stats) + 5 x 40 (str from hot) + 10 str ( from manta) = 345.5 damage per hit.

So , 345.5 x 4 (3 images + him) = 1382 damage per hit + 345.5 x 2 / 3 (33% damage on illusion of manta) = 1612 damage per hit and about 7k hp! Without even counting critical. Taking critical into account it's

1612 x 22% = 1612 + 350 = close to 2k damage per hit

0.6 attacks / second * 103 agility (from manta + stats), means 1.2 attacks / second. 2k x 20% = 2.400 damage per second! If he stuns someone for 3 seconds and then blinks he just dealt 7.5k dmg. If its 4 second stun he dealt 10k dmg! Any fucking hero just died a painful death
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Quote:
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If I told you "AFK Mom just died" and afked right outside of your tower range with hold. 10$ says the most people would kill the hero, if you don't; your one naive child.
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Old 08-16-2010, 02:36 PM   #17
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IMO TB and Spectre fight the hardest for "Farm for 30 minutes and pray you can carry" title.
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:24 PM   #18
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OD full geared (Int PT, Guinsoo, Shiva, Orchid, Agh, Refresher). Hex, whack with +300 pure dmg, whack, hex ends, orchid + shiva + ult, refresh, guinsoo, whack whack, orchid + ult + shivas = 5k + damage
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwoodenshoes View Post
IMO TB and Spectre fight the hardest for "Farm for 30 minutes and pray you can carry" title.
lol. sad but true. imho, rather than be scared shit of you're own skills, you should focus on killing the enemy tho.
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #20
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cant decide which one of the 3 void/tinker/syllabear
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:32 PM   #21
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BTW, OD can be a real carry, void is extinct in the current ranged metagame, OD can dominte mid solo with his astral spam and his good attack animation, leaving e.g. Nevermore without mana to spam razes and without cs. In addition, he can harass with orb.
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Meh Jesus is overrated...SK needs only 3 seconds to come back; 3 days and you call youself god? cmon
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HELLRAISER View Post
cant decide which one of the 3 void/tinker/syllabear
Sylla and void get owned by ck. Tinker wins anything thrown at him
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Quote:
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If I told you "AFK Mom just died" and afked right outside of your tower range with hold. 10$ says the most people would kill the hero, if you don't; your one naive child.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fevgatos View Post
Sylla and void get owned by ck. Tinker wins anything thrown at him
not quite sure about that, taking a 12-items sylla...
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:22 PM   #24
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1. Void/Terrorblade
2. Troll
3. Phantom Lancer
4. Mortred
5. Obsidian Destroyer
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:00 PM   #25
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wtf.. silencer 1000 million intelligence go!
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobo View Post
not quite sure about that, taking a 12-items sylla...
CK deals 2.5k damage per second with 5hots + manta. As long as he has ulti + manta sylla will eat 7.5k to 10k damage during his stun. Pretty much dead

Tinker with an EB is immune to Syllabear. EB + dagon 5 + rearm = dead sylla no matter his hp, sooner or later he will die. So eb + dagon5 + 4xhexes for infinite mp and there you go
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If I told you "AFK Mom just died" and afked right outside of your tower range with hold. 10$ says the most people would kill the hero, if you don't; your one naive child.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokokichi2 View Post
Use BKB and Destroyer will be killed.
he turns on ghost scepter, after ghost is over he bannishes himself and finally your bkb is over. damn you haven't even touched him
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:00 PM   #28
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hex, orchid, bloodstone, dagon5, basher, necromicon
hex, orchid, dagon5, basher, butterfly, bkb

dead tinker?

tinker: hex, eb, dagon:> 840 hp gone on sylla
bear: orchid, dagon5, manaburn = 1290 hp gone on tinker
sylla: dagon5 = +720 hp gone on tinker
do you think that sylla + bear can deal 300 damage on tinker during 13,5 seconds?
is it possible to deal 20 damage per second with autoattack ?
10 damage on bear and 10 damage on sylla each second ?

sylla pwns tinker in 1v1 theorycrafting!!! YES
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:06 PM   #29
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I really, really, really dont like where this thread is going.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:11 PM   #30
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well isnt morph that good with 3 illusions?
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:12 PM   #31
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I really, really, really dont like where this thread is going.
You should be able to conclude that it depends on the situation and lineups
Almost pointless to discuss imo
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #32
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Hm, fevgatos got some really good points there!

It's obvious from this thread that the illusion heroes are the strongest hard carries and only viable competition they got is Tinker and Void.

Still there is little mention for Phantom Lancer, who I believe is the only one who can compete them all (tinker, CK and terrorblade included)

Both PL and Void would probably win Fev's CK, since 5 HoT item is highly unrealistic. Even with those PL can juke them forever while spawning neverending stream of images, and Void with crazy attack speed wouldn't allow CK to spawn any. If he does (after MoM) wears off I think Void with his 47,5% (not counting crazy armor from agility) , one "image/hero" bashed, lifesteal would survive until they die thanks to battlefury or wear off.

So Tinker, PL and Void are the top picks for me. CK, Terrorblade, Naga, Sylla (with 2 bashers) being close second.
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The biggest thing that came out of those is something I already brought up - no single target, melee, damage based hero is ever going to be staple pick/ban material for high end play.
^ This is why most of the agi heroes like Troll, Slark, Mortred are always outshadowed by better carry picks in competitive and are good only in pubs.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trew View Post
hex, orchid, bloodstone, dagon5, basher, necromicon
hex, orchid, dagon5, basher, butterfly, bkb

dead tinker?

tinker: hex, eb, dagon:> 840 hp gone on sylla
bear: orchid, dagon5, manaburn = 1290 hp gone on tinker
sylla: dagon5 = +720 hp gone on tinker
do you think that sylla + bear can deal 300 damage on tinker during 13,5 seconds?
is it possible to deal 20 damage per second with autoattack ?
10 damage on bear and 10 damage on sylla each second ?

sylla pwns tinker in 1v1 theorycrafting!!! YES
Yeah but tinker has 15 chickens with dagon5 / hex and bloodstone. GG
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If I told you "AFK Mom just died" and afked right outside of your tower range with hold. 10$ says the most people would kill the hero, if you don't; your one naive child.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
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not quite sure about that, taking a 12-items sylla...
EB 1 Hex the other
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:55 PM   #35
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PL for unlimited illusions
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-D-D-D-Dora View Post
EB 1 Hex the other
sylla can have 2 hex and 2 orchid. hf re-arming.
and you should eb and hex the same target imo.

and fevgatos, sylla can also get those chickens, however sylla has bkb and tinker does not. Nice dodge though
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
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sylla can have 2 hex and 2 orchid. hf re-arming.
and you should eb and hex the same target imo.

and fevgatos, sylla can also get those chickens, however sylla has bkb and tinker does not. Nice dodge though
Then we are going for countless amount of gold don't we? You can't compare a hero (sylla) with having double the gold in items, its obvious that in this case he is better. If we give 12 item slots to sylla we have to give 12 item slots to tinker as well. And btw, tinker can still get bkb anyways. He casts eb on you and then bkbs--->dagon 5--->rearm--->eb--->dagon5--->bkb--->rearm.
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If I told you "AFK Mom just died" and afked right outside of your tower range with hold. 10$ says the most people would kill the hero, if you don't; your one naive child.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:37 PM   #38
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Uh... If I'm not mistaken, BKB can't be rearmed anymore.

First things first, a BKB is really needed for some of those matchups. Especially against Tinker, so here's a problem.
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Old 08-17-2010, 04:43 PM   #39
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CM wins with epic bewbage.
/thread
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fevgatos View Post
Then we are going for countless amount of gold don't we? You can't compare a hero (sylla) with having double the gold in items, its obvious that in this case he is better. If we give 12 item slots to sylla we have to give 12 item slots to tinker as well. And btw, tinker can still get bkb anyways. He casts eb on you and then bkbs--->dagon 5--->rearm--->eb--->dagon5--->bkb--->rearm.
no because sylla actually has 12 item slots =)

with countless amount of gold, the hero with most hp wins. Guess who that is

i don't need to reply on bkb rearm do I?
anyway no point in taking this discussion any further, if you don't agree with me by now it doesn't matter, since it has nothing to do with reality.
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