Developer's Blog
Register Low Fi Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2010, 01:35 PM   #1
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline

Lightbulb Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]


Anyway, just to make MKB build more logical in my opinion and make it worth it's money, while also fixing a problem with True Strike.

Monkey King Bar:




Demon Edge (2400)
Javelin (1500)
Quarterstaff (900)
Total: 4800

Bonuses:

+85 damage
+20 attack speed
Mini-Bash (passive) - Gives 35% chance to deal 100 bonus damage and 0.01 second stun.


And now, to get rid of the main problem in my opinion, the True Strike.
I think that this is a bit imba and should be nerfed.
It makes skills like evasion and blind totally useless.
Imagine if there is a skill that makes you unable to get stunned passively.
Some might say that Gem does the same for invisible units with True Sight and that BKB does it for all spellcasters with Avatar, but True Sight can be countered (Gem falls out when hero gets killed, wards can be countered with wards and dust is only temporary) while BKB Avatar only last for short period (starts with 10 sec and ends up on 5 sec) and has a long cooldown (starts with 80 sec and ends up with 55).
Anyway, there are several solutions that I came up with to nerf True Strike.
Tell me what do you think about them, witch one do you prefer and post your own ideas also (you will get credit of them, don't worry).

Solution 1:
True Strike only works for attack that triggered mini-bash.
Dynes proved that it works (thanks dude!).


Solution 2:
Make it activate effect so you get True Strike for the limited period of time.
Duration: 10 sec.
Cooldown: 20 sec.
Mana cost: 75 MP.
Effect: Hero gainst True Strike ability for the duration of effect.


Soulution 3 (1+2):
True Strike only works for attack that triggered mini-bash and make also an activate effect for limited period of time.
Duration: 10 sec.
Cooldown: 20 sec.
Mana cost: 75 MP.
Effect: Hero gainst True Strike ability for the duration of effect.


Solution 4:
Remove True Strike from MKB completely and give it to Divine Rapier.


Soulution 5:
When True Strike is on, damage bonus of Monkey King Bar is reduced from +85 to +40.

(Credit for solution 5 goes to Dr_JP.)


Solution 6:
a) Keep current toggle system, but activated True Strike will drain 15MP/second. (One I prefer.)

b) Keep current toggle system, but activated True Strike will drain 10MP/second. (One The ][nquisitor prefers.)

(Credit for solution 6 goes to The ][nquisitor.)




Changelog:

• October 25th, 2010.
- Added a buff suggestion for MKB and buffed recipe.
- Changed True Strike activate duration from 5 to 10 seconds.


• November the 13th, 2010.
- Added a new solution, #6.

• January the 26th, 2011.
- Added a 'B' version of MKB remake.


Well, that's that about MKB.
I would like to hear your opinions on this.
Discussion time, go!

____________________________________

  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Lithary; 06-22-2011 at 07:32 AM.
Old 09-21-2010, 02:23 PM   #2
Silent-man
Member
 
Silent-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 111
Silent-man is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

In my opinion, true strike isnt as far as you see it imbalanced nad I would leave it as it is. I think MKB is rarely seen in competitive games and that nerf would make it even worse. Anyway I think your solution 1 isnt really a solution, because AFAIK minibach proc. chance is counted on a successful attack not on all attacks, so you cant really bash on miss attacks.
T-down for me
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 04:31 PM   #3
JJE92
Forum Staff
 
JJE92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In your Balance Debates. Closing your threads.
Posts: 6,979
Blog Entries: 9
Suggestion Award 
JJE92 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

TUp for solution 2, I like it and Imo its more balanced than the current one while still keeping it useful
__________________
[DRAFT GUIDE]Roles in DotA - An Attempt to Clear Some Confusion
[Guide] What does a hero truly need?
JJE's Portfolio (still in Progress)

How to find all threads with the search function:
- Disable the option "Also search in child forums"
- Change settings to "Find Posts from Any Date and Older"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero(PS) View Post
voting just for the sake of it is not democracy - voting with consciousness is democracy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 06:37 PM   #4
Monsterlord
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,835
Monsterlord is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Solution 1:
True Strike only works for attack that trigered mini-bash (this way, making more than one MKB would really pay up).
Making more than one? Who in their right mind would ever buy two mkbs?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 07:50 PM   #5
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

1.
I can leave Frost Arrows on.
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Dynes; 09-22-2010 at 05:31 AM.
Old 09-22-2010, 02:52 AM   #6
Dr_JP
Member
 
Dr_JP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where someone called for the Doctor?!
Posts: 1,477
Blog Entries: 3
Dr_JP is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

About bonuses and price:

I would say to remove +15 ias, once it doesn't have quatterstaff into recipe anymore.

Or use this: Demon Edge, Javelin, Quarterstaff and Blade of Attack -> 5250 gold cost, +15 ias and +70 or +75 damage. Mini-bash same.
____________________________________
About True Strike:

What about 60-40 damage when True Strike is activated?
Choose number you want!

or no mini-bash while True Strike is active.
__________________
Latest suggestion:

  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Dr_JP; 09-22-2010 at 03:07 AM.
Old 09-22-2010, 12:11 PM   #7
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Making more than one? Who in their right mind would ever buy two mkbs?
I used to do that on my old Phantom Assasin build.
I have a much better build in my opinion now, but 3xMKB on PA is not that bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent-man View Post
In my opinion, true strike isnt as far as you see it imbalanced nad I would leave it as it is. I think MKB is rarely seen in competitive games and that nerf would make it even worse. Anyway I think your solution 1 isnt really a solution, because AFAIK minibach proc. chance is counted on a successful attack not on all attacks, so you cant really bash on miss attacks.
T-down for me
Well, it can be changed to work on an attack and not successful attack.
I think it's possible.
Even so, I've made a 2nd solution just in case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
TUp for solution 2, I like it and Imo its more balanced than the current one while still keeping it useful
Thx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
1.
I can leave Frost Arrows on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
About bonuses and price:

I would say to remove +15 ias, once it doesn't have quatterstaff into recipe anymore.

Or use this: Demon Edge, Javelin, Quarterstaff and Blade of Attack -> 5250 gold cost, +15 ias and +70 or +75 damage. Mini-bash same.
I will put this version of recipe instead of 1st one I made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
About True Strike:

What about 60-40 damage when True Strike is activated?
Choose number you want!

or no mini-bash while True Strike is active.
Great idea!
I will put it as 3rd solution.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 12:51 PM   #8
Monsterlord
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,835
Monsterlord is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
but 3xMKB on PA is not that bad.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2010, 06:59 PM   #9
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Agh!
Sorry, it's a typo! >.<
I meant to say 2xMKB.
But really, 2xMKB can be really useful sometimes due to constant mini-stunning.
I know that it might not sound something special, but it really is lethal and can mess up enemy pretty nicely.
Anyway, this is my current PA build:
- Power Treads (agi/str)
- Linken's Sphere/BKB
- Etheral Blade
- Satanic
- Battle Fury
- Sange and Yasha/Manta Style
Any good? :Đ
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2010, 11:42 PM   #10
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Bump!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 06:37 AM   #11
Whitefang
Member
 
Whitefang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 1,659
Whitefang is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

True strike exist to counter miss chance. Removing it will make agility hero uncounterable at late game.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 08:29 AM   #12
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefang View Post
True strike exist to counter miss chance. Removing it will make agility hero uncounterable at late game.
I didn't remove it, I nerfed it so it isn't passive or if it is kept as passive, that damage of MKB is reduced.
Keeping it as it is is too imba.
Plus, I never had troubles of taking agility heroes before.
Evasion skills are strong, but not that strong.
Only Evasion skill that could use a change/nerf is Troll Warlord's Blind.
Still, for example, to make MKB True Strike active ability for duration of time is perfectly fine.
That way, you could counter those agility heroes and still not be imba.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 03:32 AM   #13
Kwanz4
Member
 
Kwanz4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 1,347
Blog Entries: 2
Kwanz4 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

T-Down.

If it wasn't for MKB, things such as Pandaren Brewmaster's drunken haze in tandem with drunken brawler would be way too imba.
__________________
Check out my Phantom Lancer guide! (Now published!)



My MKB and BOTs visual buffs were implemented...

Common English Grammatical Errors
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 09:10 AM   #14
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Solution 1:
True Strike only works for attack that triggered mini-bash.
Of course, mini-bash should be fixed so that chance for it to happen is checked when attack starts.
No need, you just need to set the same chance value for the crit/bash and your'e set.
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 12:35 PM   #15
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwanz4 View Post
T-Down.

If it wasn't for MKB, things such as Pandaren Brewmaster's drunken haze in tandem with drunken brawler would be way too imba.
Dude, that last only for 7 seconds!
And the example you mentioned there is actually reason why the it should be remade like this.
His current True Strike makes Manigix's 2 skills almost completely useless!
With this remake I am suggesting, evasion based skills would still be useful and people could be able to counter them properly while not making them totally useless.
Imagine if Gem gave True Sight, +80 damage, +15 IAS, 35% chance to mini-bash and does not drop upon death!
Also, like I said several times already.
Imagine if there was skill that makes you immune to stun permanently, that would be imba, just like True Strike is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
No need, you just need to set the same chance value for the crit/bash and your'e set.
Hmmm, but then they could activate at different moments that way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 12:40 PM   #16
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Hmmm, but then they could activate at different moments that way.
No, believe me.
You'll need two separate skills (with the same chance values if you want) for them to activate separately, I have a testmap for that.
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2010, 02:28 PM   #17
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
No, believe me.
You'll need two separate skills (with the same chance values if you want) for them to activate separately, I have a testmap for that.
Well then it's OK.
Could you give me download link for test-map so I can post it here for people (and me ) to see?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2010, 01:16 AM   #18
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Well, no, but here's a more disk space friendly version for you. (=
Dunno.w3x

3 types of MKB, the "partial" one stuns for 1 second, so you'll see.

E:
I know about the MKB always getting into slot 1 after swicthing (yes, click to switch between the three), and its given damage (which is absent).

But I forgot to modify the creep reduction table for Exp (so heroes will only level up to 5). But you can just set their levels to 10 in the editor anyway.
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Dynes; 10-13-2010 at 02:37 AM.
Old 10-11-2010, 02:49 PM   #19
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
Well, no, but here's a more disk space friendly version for you. (=
Attachment 28018

3 types of MKB, the "partial" one stuns for 1 second, so you'll see.
Thanks!
I will check this out during the next few days.
I have some problems with WC3TFT so I'm not sure if I'll be able to check it right away.
Still, thanks a million!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 12:07 PM   #20
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Mass bump!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 02:27 AM   #21
Leadblast
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: BKB'ing through your spells since 2009.
Posts: 4,251
Leadblast is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefang View Post
True strike exist to counter miss chance. Removing it will make agility hero uncounterable at late game.
This. Don't touch the True Strike tyvm.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 05:52 AM   #22
pichu89
Member
 
pichu89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 245
pichu89 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

T-UP rearm T-UP! (i prefer sol-1)
i have the very same feeling about true strike!

1. nerf-ing true strike has nothing to do about nerf-ing mkb

what i mean is, if true strike was passive for butterfly or buriz or other items, true strike STILL needs to be nerf. so saying that "mkb is rarely seen in competitive games" reli makes no sense. its not the problem wif mkb, but the true strike!

2. evasion is there for reasons

introducing true strike is more or less like removing evasion/miss. counter for invis (true sight) and magic (magic immune) are NOT PERMANENT. however, having true strike passive (trying to avoid saying "having mkb") was like "evasion/miss problem is never a problem FROM NOW ON" and that reli sucks!

well i always wants to discuss abt this but lazy to do so, thx for having this thread pointing out my feelings
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 03:18 PM   #23
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadblast View Post
This. Don't touch the True Strike tyvm.
So you want DotA to be imbalanced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu89 View Post
T-UP rearm T-UP! (i prefer sol-1)
i have the very same feeling about true strike!

1. nerf-ing true strike has nothing to do about nerf-ing mkb

what i mean is, if true strike was passive for butterfly or buriz or other items, true strike STILL needs to be nerf. so saying that "mkb is rarely seen in competitive games" reli makes no sense. its not the problem wif mkb, but the true strike!

2. evasion is there for reasons

introducing true strike is more or less like removing evasion/miss. counter for invis (true sight) and magic (magic immune) are NOT PERMANENT. however, having true strike passive (trying to avoid saying "having mkb") was like "evasion/miss problem is never a problem FROM NOW ON" and that reli sucks!

well i always wants to discuss abt this but lazy to do so, thx for having this thread pointing out my feelings
Thanks for support.
While having True Strike is not such a bad idea, it should be nerfed so it doesn't make miss based abilities useless.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 04:09 PM   #24
jojoba
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 262
jojoba is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

T-D everything need a counter, as well as evade
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 05:25 PM   #25
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoba View Post
T-D everything need a counter, as well as evade
Yeah, but not an absolute counter.
Also, if everything needs a counter, how can you counter True Strike?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2010, 10:28 PM   #26
Leadblast
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: BKB'ing through your spells since 2009.
Posts: 4,251
Leadblast is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
So you want DotA to be imbalanced?
Imbalanced would be if we had no way to counter evasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Yeah, but not an absolute counter.
A counter that doesn't always work is not a counter. Your idea on "True Strike triggering on minibash proc's only" was pretty hilarious btw. If True Strike becomes a % chance based skill then what is the purpose of it? might as well have a normal weapon without True Strike like Battlefury or Buriza and get pretty much the same results. Your idea of "balance" is pretty laughable.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 02:39 AM   #27
pichu89
Member
 
pichu89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 245
pichu89 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

^

think from another perspective

Imbalanced would be if we had no way to counter bash.

Thats why we need an item to counter bash, so there is an item that will let the holder free from bash.

While one suggests make it chance base (to reduce bash chance), another says it is laughable.

If you are trying to say that bash can be countered by hex or other disable, remember they are NOT PERMANENT
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 02:43 AM   #28
aestropher
Member
 
aestropher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,629
aestropher is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Why are you doing this to mkb? It's not an overused item, yet we do appreciate it for its effeciency against missed attacks due to Bfly, blind and terrain difference.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 03:34 AM   #29
Leadblast
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: BKB'ing through your spells since 2009.
Posts: 4,251
Leadblast is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu89 View Post
^

think from another perspective

Imbalanced would be if we had no way to counter bash.
Ever heard of Linken? BKB? no?
Also if you disable the one trying to bash you, doesn't that prevents him from bashing you? Geez. Who cares if it's not permanent? you use it when it's needed, not when it's not. What the hell do you want? fucking permahex enemy until game ends?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 07:28 AM   #30
pichu89
Member
 
pichu89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 245
pichu89 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

@aestropher: read my previous post (#22)

@ ^:

linken bkb for counter disable, they are not always ready for u.

yes, we use when its needed, like u said, it doesnt gives PERMANENT magic immune.

the same point is, having an item to permanent counter over evasion is not onli imbalance but also spoils the game. skills like blind(troll), drunken haste(panda), blur(pa) is TOTALLY and PERMANENTLY rendered useless.

i hope u get my point. the main problem for "permanent true strike" is "permanent", not "true strike".
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 10:24 AM   #31
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadblast View Post
Imbalanced would be if we had no way to counter evasion.
With my remake, you can still counter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadblast View Post
A counter that doesn't always work is not a counter. Your idea on "True Strike triggering on minibash proc's only" was pretty hilarious btw. If True Strike becomes a % chance based skill then what is the purpose of it? might as well have a normal weapon without True Strike like Battlefury or Buriza and get pretty much the same results. Your idea of "balance" is pretty laughable.
You actually killed this argument with your argument below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadblast View Post
Ever heard of Linken? BKB? no?
Also if you disable the one trying to bash you, doesn't that prevents him from bashing you? Geez. Who cares if it's not permanent? you use it when it's needed, not when it's not. What the hell do you want? fucking permahex enemy until game ends?


Quote:
Originally Posted by aestropher View Post
Why are you doing this to mkb? It's not an overused item, yet we do appreciate it for its effeciency against missed attacks due to Bfly, blind and terrain difference.
Still there shouldn't be an item in DotA that can absolutely counter something without having any weakness.
True Sight is counter to invisibility and you can gain it by buying Gem, Wards or Dust and the thing is that, while you counter your enemy's invisibility, it is not absolute like MKB.
Gem will drop if you get killed and it doesn't give insane bonuses like MKB, Wards only cover an area, don't last forever and can be destroyed and Dust, well, it only lasts for several seconds.
Now that is how a real skill counter should be and not absolutely permanent.
I mean, if you were Mangix, and someone made MKB against you, how would you feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu89 View Post
@aestropher: read my previous post (#22)

@ ^:

linken bkb for counter disable, they are not always ready for u.

yes, we use when its needed, like u said, it doesnt gives PERMANENT magic immune.

the same point is, having an item to permanent counter over evasion is not onli imbalance but also spoils the game. skills like blind(troll), drunken haste(panda), blur(pa) is TOTALLY and PERMANENTLY rendered useless.

i hope u get my point. the main problem for "permanent true strike" is "permanent", not "true strike".
Finally, someone who gets the point of this!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 11:36 AM   #32
Captain Planet
Member
 
Captain Planet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Frieza Planet 419, because nobody ever goes to Frieza Planet 419
Steam: Freaky Alien Genotype
Posts: 19,896
Blog Entries: 6
Suggestion Award 
Captain Planet is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Epic post is epic

OT: R U SRS? True Strike is the ONLY counter to evasion...Evasion until MKB got True Strike had NO proper counter. And MKB ain't cheap...so tell me, how it is Imba again?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 12:08 PM   #33
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe, Bonuses and True Stri

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Juggernaut™ View Post


Epic post is epic

OT: R U SRS? True Strike is the ONLY counter to evasion...Evasion until MKB got True Strike had NO proper counter. And MKB ain't cheap...so tell me, how it is Imba again?
Eh, it's imba because it permanent.
I don't have anything against True Strike.
It should be in a game, but like every counter, it shouldn't be permanent and without a way to counter it.
I would only go for permanent True Strike if it was on Divine Rapier.
Look at mine suggestions, you still have an ability to counter everyone who has an evasion based ability while not making them absolutely useless.
Also, MKB already gives some nice bonuses that make it worth all that gold.
And like I stated above, imagine if you were Mangix and someone makes MKB (you can kiss 2 of your skills goodbye almost completely). :-/
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 01:41 PM   #34
pichu89
Member
 
pichu89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 245
pichu89 is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

lol i think this hv to move to balance DEBATE hehe~
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 03:14 PM   #35
Leadblast
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: BKB'ing through your spells since 2009.
Posts: 4,251
Leadblast is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
With my remake, you can still counter it.
No. Your remake is stupid. It turns True Strike into a % chance based skill. Since evasion itself is a % chance based skill, with any normal DPS item (without the True Strike) you get around the same % chance of hitting. In other words you're killing the usefulness of True Strike. End of discussion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 03:48 PM   #36
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

With True Strike always on, you can't autocast Frost Arrows without wasting mana.
I believe that at least a partial True Strike be available.
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 03:59 PM   #37
Sven2k
Member
 
Sven2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: \/arna, Bulgaria
Steam: Sven2k
Posts: 17,280
Blog Entries: 17
Sven2k is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

t-down for recipy suggestion
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 04:38 PM   #38
thefallensky
Member
 
thefallensky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: QC, PH
Posts: 137
thefallensky is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

... MKB gold cost is 5400...having permanent HIT would cost you 5400 gold... it means for you too farm it you need...

135 (40 gold/creep) creep kills

or

10(300gold/hero)hero kills ...

or

9 tower destroyed..

... its not as imbalanced as it seems to be... 5400 gold is hard to farm,, so in my opinion... 5400 gold for "never miss" isnt that IMBA as you think it is...... . and consider this...

FVoid,pandaren, getting evasion,at lvl 7 or 8 .. and you getting MKB at maybe lvl 15.....

"8" lvls you have been strikened by their evasion...

if MKB is for "never miss" then they deserve the "never miss " features of true strikes...
__________________
i like it when i hear my name, OWNAGE
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 06:02 PM   #39
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,899
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadblast View Post
No. Your remake is stupid. It turns True Strike into a % chance based skill. Since evasion itself is a % chance based skill, with any normal DPS item (without the True Strike) you get around the same % chance of hitting. In other words you're killing the usefulness of True Strike. End of discussion.
No, you are one who is stupid and blind, because you would see that I've offered several solutions to this problem if you were not.
I just said that I prefer one with the % most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven2k View Post
t-down for recipy suggestion
Why?
It's way more logical than it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefallensky View Post
... MKB gold cost is 5400...having permanent HIT would cost you 5400 gold... it means for you too farm it you need...

135 (40 gold/creep) creep kills

or

10(300gold/hero)hero kills ...

or

9 tower destroyed..

... its not as imbalanced as it seems to be... 5400 gold is hard to farm,, so in my opinion... 5400 gold for "never miss" isnt that IMBA as you think it is...... . and consider this...

FVoid,pandaren, getting evasion,at lvl 7 or 8 .. and you getting MKB at maybe lvl 15.....

"8" lvls you have been strikened by their evasion...

if MKB is for "never miss" then they deserve the "never miss " features of true strikes...
Fine, then lets make BKB little more expensive and make it's magic immunity permanent.
Lets give 0 seconds cooldown to Guinsoo, I mean it does cost 5.6K gold and it costs mana to cast hex.
Lets give Buriza True Sight, it is very expensive item after all.
Those are all brilliant ideas. ^^

Dude, it does not work that way.
There simply shouldn't be an absolute way to counter something permanently.
And you also forget that MKB gives other awesome bonuses as well and you don't have to get that 5.4K gold all at once, but you can buy MKB peace by peace and each of those peaces will make you stronger and stronger.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2010, 06:13 PM   #40
aestropher
Member
 
aestropher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,629
aestropher is offline
Default Re: Monkey King Bar [Recipe and True Strike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Still there shouldn't be an item in DotA that can absolutely counter something without having any weakness.
True Sight is counter to invisibility and you can gain it by buying Gem, Wards or Dust and the thing is that, while you counter your enemy's invisibility, it is not absolute like MKB.
Gem will drop if you get killed and it doesn't give insane bonuses like MKB, Wards only cover an area, don't last forever and can be destroyed and Dust, well, it only lasts for several seconds.
Now that is how a real skill counter should be and not absolutely permanent.
I mean, if you were Mangix, and someone made MKB against you, how would you feel?
If I'm PB and they made MKB against me, I actually couldn't be more happy since they just spent 5400 gold trying to hit me. Not to mention the fact that PB is a tank and most of PB's strength lies in his ultimate anyways (Aghanim's is prolly his only build in competitive games).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu89 View Post
@aestropher: read my previous post (#22)

@ ^:

linken bkb for counter disable, they are not always ready for u.

yes, we use when its needed, like u said, it doesnt gives PERMANENT magic immune.

the same point is, having an item to permanent counter over evasion is not onli imbalance but also spoils the game. skills like blind(troll), drunken haste(panda), blur(pa) is TOTALLY and PERMANENTLY rendered useless.

i hope u get my point. the main problem for "permanent true strike" is "permanent", not "true strike".
The problem is, no one is exploiting the use of MKB; most heroes could not afford a 5400 gold pure DPS item that does not help mobility, survivability and team support by a bit. Until True Strike passive was added to MKB, its days were miserable since it's outclassed by most other Tier 4 DPS items. It is the current True Strike that makes MKB a decent DPS item.

After all, it isn't something we grow tired to see games after games that it deserves a nerf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
With True Strike always on, you can't autocast Frost Arrows without wasting mana.
I believe that at least a partial True Strike be available.
Did you forget there is an option to turn TS off?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by aestropher; 10-17-2010 at 06:34 PM.
Reply
  Defense of the Ancients Suggestions Remakes


Forum Jump

Thread Tools


forum staff