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Old 10-12-2010, 02:34 PM   #1
Lithary
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Lightbulb Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]


What am I going to do here is add a little synergy between his Spirit Lance, will also change few of his icons (All icons changed came from this thread and are not mine. Credit for them goes to people from that thread.), animation of that skill, change his stats, add Aghanim's Scepter upgrade and effect and some various little changes with numbers.
Here is link for current Phantom Lancer.



Azwraith



Strength: 19 + 1.75
Agility (Primary): 24 + 3
Intelligence: 19 + 1.75

Notes:
Reason why I did this is because Azwraith's attributes are insane.
4.2 agi growth... really?
He is now too good and I think that this is a good way to nerf him without turning him into shit tier.






Casts a magic from his lance at a target, damaging it and slowing it down for 3 seconds. An illusion is created attacking the target for the duration of time. All other illusions, will also cast Phantom Lance at that target and deal additional bonus damage.

Level 1 - Deals 95 damage and Cripples for 10%. Each illusion's Phantom Lance will deal additional 10 damage. Illusion lasts 4 seconds.

Level 2 - Deals 130 damage and Cripples for 20%. Each illusion's Phantom Lance will deal additional 10 damage. Illusion lasts 6 seconds.

Level 3 - Deals 165 damage and Cripples for 30%. Each illusion's Phantom Lance will deal additional 10 damage. Illusion lasts 8 seconds.

Level 4 - Deals 200 damage and Cripples for 40%. Each illusion's Phantom Lance will deal additional 10 damage. Illusion lasts 10 seconds.

Manacost: 125/130/135/140 MP
Cooldown: 7 seconds
Casting Range: 750 units

Notes:
I think that this skill was begging for this kind of synergy.
Illusions deal 25% and take 400% damage.
His cripple effect should stay same as it is, only it should be recolored in blue and not green.




Change-log:

• 15th of October, 2010.
- Removed illusion's number increase with Aghanim's Scepter upgrade and increased damage per illusion bonus for Phantom Lance from 5/5/10/10 to 5/10/15/20.

• 27thof October, 2010.
- Changed strength from 18 + 2 to 19 + 1.75 (total strength went from 66 to 61), his agility from 23 + 2.8 to 24 + 4 (total agility went from 90.2 to 96) and his intelligence from 21 + 1.75 to 19 + 1.75 (total intelligence went from 63 to 61), in the end his total stats went from 219.2 to 218.
- Illusion duration for Spirit Lance now scales to 4/6/8/10 seconds instead of lasting 10 seconds at all levels.


• 29th of January, 2011.
- Decreased heal when illusions trigger it from 1% of the max HP to 0.5% of the max HP.

• 25th of May, 2013.
- Updated suggestion and rebalanced it accordingly.


Anyway, that's it.
Tell me what you think about it.

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Last edited by Lithary; 05-26-2013 at 07:38 PM.
Old 10-13-2010, 12:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Mass bump!
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

OMG! THE BEST REMAKE TO PL YET! HUGE T-UP! I wanted that kind of synergy from Spirit Lance from the get go, but I didn't know how to balance the damage equally to the illusions. I support!
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Old 10-13-2010, 02:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-Up (:
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Phantom Lance remake is definitely awesomesause.

I'm just a little concerned about Phantom Edge's Aghanim. What about NOT improving chances; just keeping the 1% heal per illusion, and buff illusions?

So, when you get Aghanim, illusions will deal 30-35% damage, and take 350% damage instead of dealing 25% and taking 400%?
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-Up to everything except a healing. That is not his style.

I'd go on the lines of "Each illusion grants a stacking bonus aura"

Bonus can be magic resistance, agility aura, armor, etc.
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Support all of this!
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc.jmk! View Post
Phantom Lance remake is definitely awesomesause.

I'm just a little concerned about Phantom Edge's Aghanim. What about NOT improving chances; just keeping the 1% heal per illusion, and buff illusions?

So, when you get Aghanim, illusions will deal 30-35% damage, and take 350% damage instead of dealing 25% and taking 400%?
I thought of that, but I am afraid that it could make him a bit too strong.
I may put it as an alternative solution though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Death View Post
T-Up to everything except a healing. That is not his style.

I'd go on the lines of "Each illusion grants a stacking bonus aura"

Bonus can be magic resistance, agility aura, armor, etc.
I have a strange idea how actually that is perfectly reasonable (the healing), but I simply can't find right words do describe it, so I'll just give you a picture of two dogs:


Anyway (Let's ignore stuff above, shall we? ), I think that healing fits him well since he is phantom/illusion based hero so creating illusions should have a positive effect on him.
Reason why I didn't choose any buff is next:
- IMS: Nah, his Phantom Lance and Doppelwalk can do chasing/running for him and since Diffusal Blade and Manta Style are paractically his core build, I think that he has enough means to chase and escape.
- IAS, armor and damage: He is an agility hero who makes a lot of agility items witch means that he wont lack in any of those 3 departments.
- Magic resistance: His ultimate already enough of that in my opinion.

So only thing left that I really thought that he could use is heal.
I think that 1% of HP healed per illusion created isn't much, just enough to keep him and his illusions alive enough to do their work.

I just hope that stuff I said make sense.

Edit:
I just find that picture hilarious and simply had to find a way to use it so it's actually a stupid joke and nothing else (hope no one thinks I am making fun of them).
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

t-up for all
but, 10% chance illusion duplicating is too much IMO
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Black View Post
t-up for all
but, 10% chance illusion duplicating is too much IMO
Erm, for cost of 4.2K gold and not so good bonuses by Scepter (meaning you can get much better stuff for that money) is reason why I think that it's OK.
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-up!
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Excellent and very interesting remake, But if u ask me that aghanims effect with increasing Juxtapose illusion count is TOO imba. 5 illusions are already too much, 3 more are already an overkill. For that gold U cannot buy manta (an example) to generate that much illusions. So that 4k gold is too cheap for Illusion number increase, increase in illusion generation chances and that heal is awesome too.

Smaller quantities please. Or remove one of those bonuses for ulti. It is incredibly imba.
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acechiling View Post
Excellent and very interesting remake, But if u ask me that aghanims effect with increasing Juxtapose illusion count is TOO imba. 5 illusions are already too much, 3 more are already an overkill. For that gold U cannot buy manta (an example) to generate that much illusions. So that 4k gold is too cheap for Illusion number increase, increase in illusion generation chances and that heal is awesome too.

Smaller quantities please. Or remove one of those bonuses for ulti. It is incredibly imba.
Well, AS costs 4.2K gold and MS costs 4.9K gold so it's pretty close.
Still, I think that you may be right, but I'm not sure.
What's again, a test-map would do me a world of good since a lot of things on paper might seem different in action.

Anyway, I'm going on a trip tomorrow and when I'm back, I will make all the adjustments and stuff.
Still, if someone is so good to make me a test-map with this version of PL, I would be really grateful.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

For that 4.2 K gold, U gain more illusions and faster generation rate, while manta illusions can be killed Np Np and u should for that CD.

testmap would be really nice, but that is not really enough. The main issue here is the balancing problem, not the coding one. He should not be overpowered. SO testmap won't change TOO much.

Anyway, looking forward for the testmap. Gj, keep it up, I like ur suggestions.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Death View Post
T-Up to everything except a healing. That is not his style.

I'd go on the lines of "Each illusion grants a stacking bonus aura"

Bonus can be magic resistance, agility aura, armor, etc.
IIRC,
auras don't work on illusions
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

So basically you nerfed his lance and made doppelwalk faster.

Old lance: 250 dmg
Your lance: 200 + 10 for each illu

-.-
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post
So basically you nerfed his lance and made doppelwalk faster.

Old lance: 250 dmg
Your lance: 200 + 10 for each illu

-.-
U forgot to mention his ulti The main change here is an aghanims effect on his ulti.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

OP as hell! Imagine 100000 illusions with diffusion!
T-D for me, sorry

What he needs now is some kind of buff to Phantom Lance's duration and reduce mana cost for dopple
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Old 10-15-2010, 08:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

@OP

Check your Phantom Lance description.."Cats.."
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Old 10-15-2010, 12:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acechiling View Post
For that 4.2 K gold, U gain more illusions and faster generation rate, while manta illusions can be killed Np Np and u should for that CD.

testmap would be really nice, but that is not really enough. The main issue here is the balancing problem, not the coding one. He should not be overpowered. SO testmap won't change TOO much.

Anyway, looking forward for the testmap. Gj, keep it up, I like ur suggestions.
True, I think that a nerf on ulti AS bonus is in order.
Also, I know that the problem here is balancing and not coding, but when you actually get to see how the idea actually works, you can make better decisions on how strong it is and does it need a buff, nerf or is it good as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post
So basically you nerfed his lance and made doppelwalk faster.

Old lance: 250 dmg
Your lance: 200 + 10 for each illu

-.-
I can fix the number if you really think that it's to weak, but his main strength should be his illusions and not nukes.
Still, like I said, I numbers can be fixed.
Also this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acechiling View Post
U forgot to mention his ulti The main change here is an aghanims effect on his ulti.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corest View Post
OP as hell! Imagine 100000 illusions with diffusion!
T-D for me, sorry

What he needs now is some kind of buff to Phantom Lance's duration and reduce mana cost for dopple
I did give buff for image duration, while I think that his mana for Dopplewalk is perfectly fine.
60 MP at level 4 is pretty sweet deal for bonuses there.
Also, I think that it's true, maybe him making more illusions is a bit imba.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbyssPetra View Post
@OP

Check your Phantom Lance description.."Cats.."
Thanks. :]
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Old 10-17-2010, 05:38 AM   #21
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-Up definitely on 1st skill, dunno about ulti.

But Spirit Lance's name should stay that way. You see it is not about the theme, but if you know this hero's skin is based on Kimahri, from Final Fantasy X (FFX), whose strongest weapon in the game is named... Spirit Lance.

So, just keep the name for nudging purposes.
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Old 10-17-2010, 06:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Well why healing? but anyway, T-up for the rest!
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIP-Midas- View Post
T-Up definitely on 1st skill, dunno about ulti.

But Spirit Lance's name should stay that way. You see it is not about the theme, but if you know this hero's skin is based on Kimahri, from Final Fantasy X (FFX), whose strongest weapon in the game is named... Spirit Lance.

So, just keep the name for nudging purposes.
I knew that his model was from Kimahri, but I didn't know the fact about the Spirit Lance.
Anyway, you are right, even though this makes more sense, the difference is not that huge and it should remain as Spirit Lance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Apple View Post
Well why healing? but anyway, T-up for the rest!
That is the buff he actually needs.
It's not that strong, but he has everything else, speed, damage, armor, magic resistance while he has no way for healing.
Also, I look at this something like when water elemental is fighting in water (just for an example), that water should have some positive effect on him, and his illusions should be his 'water' in this case.
Also, his power is to create illusions, why not make him be able to heal them (and himself while at it) since he is an illusion master?
Eh, I think that I am only one who can see that.
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-up! Good ideas, good balance as well. You get my support
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Old 10-17-2010, 01:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

ur ideas are nice, but my question is why? i thought that pl is perfectly balance rite now.
Half T-D, sorry
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Old 10-17-2010, 02:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoba View Post
ur ideas are nice, but my question is why? i thought that pl is perfectly balance rite now.
Half T-D, sorry
His 1st skill simply begs for bonus damage from illusions.
I mean, it's perfect synergy for him and I think I've kept it balanced.
Also, every hero will get AS upgrade sooner or latter, so you can't avoid that.
I've suggested the AS upgrade idea that I think is the best.
Also, he doesn't need that much intelligence as he has now, so I've reduced his intelligence growth and improved his strength growth from 1.7 to his good old 2 strength per level.
Also, increased duration of Doppelwalk and Spirit Lance illusions because 10 seconds is perfectly fine and should not be lower and that small buff on Doppelwalk is there because I really think that this skill is a bit too weak as it is now.

Also, Aizen (a character from Bleach) would tell you this: 'You should not think of things as they are now, but how they should be.'
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Old 10-17-2010, 05:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

"Cats"

well ...

t-up for stacking of phantom lance per illusion...
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Old 10-17-2010, 06:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

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Originally Posted by thefallensky View Post
"Cats"

well ...

t-up for stacking of phantom lance per illusion...
Thanks, forgot to change that.
>.<
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Bump!
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-UP especially in Spirit lance
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:32 PM   #31
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

T-up love it
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:07 PM   #32
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Do you realise that your Spirit Lance is a "little" overpowered. You can ignore the illusion for 2 or 4 secs but if it strikes you for 10! imo that would be the best lvl1 nuke.

DoppleWalk: both invi time and speed bonuses are increased, why?

Quote:
Heal is there to, well, make him stronger
Isn't he "tankish" enough already? It's quite hard to catch the real PL if you don't have AoE nukes so it compensates his low hp perfectly.

As for the attribute growth redistribution(it's no redistribution actually since you've added 0.05 points) see:

1) It's quite hard to catch the real PL if you don't have AoE nukes so it compensates his low hp perfectly.

2) I'd personally would like Sand King's agility and intilligence swaped but his attributes remain unchanged for ages!

All in all I don't see a solid enough reason behind that buff of yours so T-null.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:19 AM   #33
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
Do you realise that your Spirit Lance is a "little" overpowered. You can ignore the illusion for 2 or 4 secs but if it strikes you for 10! imo that would be the best lvl1 nuke.
Erm, what?
I kinda didn't understand what you said there, but I assure you that there is nothing imbalanced with suggested Spirit Lance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
DoppleWalk: both invi time and speed bonuses are increased, why?
Simply because I barely feel any effects from the Dopplewalk and find it kinda too weak.
Great escape skill, but can be countered way to easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
Isn't he "tankish" enough already? It's quite hard to catch the real PL if you don't have AoE nukes so it compensates his low hp perfectly.
The problem is that DotA has a shitload of nukers and heroes who can do some mean AOE damage and can send PL and his illusions to eternal hunting grounds without any problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
As for the attribute growth redistribution(it's no redistribution actually since you've added 0.05 points) see:
Yeah, I know, so what?
I can't lover his intelligence too much ether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
1) It's quite hard to catch the real PL if you don't have AoE nukes so it compensates his low hp perfectly.
It does not since I already stated it above about nukers and AOE damage dealers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
2) I'd personally would like Sand King's agility and intilligence swaped but his attributes remain unchanged for ages!
So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
All in all I don't see a solid enough reason behind that buff of yours so T-null.
Oh come on, you are seriously telling me that you never had an idea that Phantom Lancer, master of illusions could have some synergy with his Spirit Lance and his other illusions instead of just creating one more.
I mean, after IF made all his illusions make a cast animation whenever he casts Spirit Lance, I think that Spirit Lance was begging on it's knees for some kind of better synergy.
Also, I already stated that I think that Dopplewalk is simply too weak and skills like WW and Blink are much better for escaping AND chasing (while chasing aspect of Dopplewalk is almost 0).
True that he has Spirit Lance, but still, it's simply too weak.
And about healing, it's like some kind of link between him and his illusions.
He is illusion master, so it is kinda logical that he can heal his illusions, but doe to fact that he is connected with them more than other heroes are with their illusions, it is logical that he can also benefit from that healing.
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Mmm... It really seems to be an excellent rmk... i don't know something about Scepter...
Agree with Lithary.... i'd rather buy MS.
T-Null
if you get the visual effect for his scepter will be a T-up
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

t-up on lance, t-down on ult. no synergy if u ask me.
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:42 AM   #36
Dzin-Zakk
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

The Illusion from your Spirit Lance lasts 10 seconds! Although it already rapes with its' 2/4/6/8. I'd hardly call that balanced.

Heal upon illusion generating+2.0 str growth is a way too much survivability for such hero.

Now when I thought abt dopplewalk a bit more it looks like you've been able to sway me. The current 10% increase is laughable. But that's not Remake but Rebalance =)
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:30 AM   #37
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

t-up for icons and Spirit Lance remake

i would have to say imba for ult :|
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:44 PM   #38
Lithary
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by noRman View Post
Mmm... It really seems to be an excellent rmk... i don't know something about Scepter...
Agree with Lithary.... i'd rather buy MS.
T-Null
if you get the visual effect for his scepter will be a T-up
I said what I think would be the best visual effect for PL (same as Juggernaut's only blue), but I can't make it myself since I don't know how.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_ii View Post
t-up on lance, t-down on ult. no synergy if u ask me.
How?
His skills are based on illusion creating, that upgrade improves that and heals him based for every illusion created.
It's a nice little synergy if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
The Illusion from your Spirit Lance lasts 10 seconds! Although it already rapes with its' 2/4/6/8. I'd hardly call that balanced.

Heal upon illusion generating+2.0 str growth is a way too much survivability for such hero.

Now when I thought abt dopplewalk a bit more it looks like you've been able to sway me. The current 10% increase is laughable. But that's not Remake but Rebalance =)
You are probably right about duration of Spirit Lance's illusion, I will fix that.
Also, about his strength, I would only lower it if his agility goes up.
I dunno, make his strength growth to 1.75 per level and agility 3 per level.
How does that sound?
And yeah, I know that Dopplewalk is more issue of a balance than a remake, but I didn't want to make a completely new thread just for that so I shoved it all in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomchoco View Post
t-up for icons and Spirit Lance remake

i would have to say imba for ult :|
Is it because of healing?
If yes, then let me explain it all to you since I've noticed that people get easily scared of % based healing.
1% healing per illusion created means that in case you have 3K HP PL (witch is actually very hard), you and your illusions will get healed only by 30HP every time one illusion is created.
And remember that it's like previous HoT that it heals you per second all the time, but per illusion created and in average, that would be much weaker than HoT's healing, witch is OK.
Also, % increase in illusion creating is slim and will not cause any balance issues if you ask me.
I will also decrease his strength growth and increase agility growth to make it it less powerful and will probably fix all balance issues with that, I hope.
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:51 AM   #39
Dzin-Zakk
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

^ yeah I understood clearly your ultimate skills buff. So my opinion is either +2.0 growth or % healing, not both at once. <<< that's just my opinion after all.

Also you don't really need to increas agi growth, Illusions already deal a lot of damage via Diffusual Blades and PL has a descent base damage(quite easy to last hit).
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:12 PM   #40
Lithary
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Default Re: Phantom Lancer [Small Remake]

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Originally Posted by Dzink View Post
^ yeah I understood clearly your ultimate skills buff. So my opinion is either +2.0 growth or % healing, not both at once. <<< that's just my opinion after all.

Also you don't really need to increas agi growth, Illusions already deal a lot of damage via Diffusual Blades and PL has a descent base damage(quite easy to last hit).
I already did it.
Take a look and you will see that while now he has better use of those attributes, it is still not some mad buff.
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