Developer's Blog
Register Low Fi Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-26-2010, 12:57 PM   #1
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now

Lightbulb Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Meka]


Well, after a discussion with Dr_JP I've decided to start a thread that should fix an in-battle healing problem in my opinion.
The problem is that we don't have any strong items that will provide us with some good and reliable healing while in battle, so I suggest a small remake of several items.
Those items would be Heart of Tarrasque, Bloodstone and Mekansm.

1st, I'll go with Heart of Tarrasque (big tanks to Dr_JP for helping me with this idea).



This item is very expensive and hard to make, while it's bonuses are not that great for it's price.
I recommend that recipe is changed to:

-Messerschmidt's Reaver (3200)
-Vitality Booster (1100)
-Ring of Regeneration (350)
-Heart of Tarrasque recipe (800)
Total: 5450

And change bonuses to:

+40 strength
+250 hit points
+15HP/second regeneration
Health Regeneration (passive) (Regenerates 1% of max health each second, only regenerates health when the bearer has not taken damage from a player owned source in the last 4 seconds (6 for ranged heroes), self damage does not disable Health Regeneration, but damage from Roshan does, does not stack with itself.)

Reason:
Current HoT already gives 1060 HP so removing 50 wont be that big of a deal, while adding an improved regeneration is something that would make this item really great and worth it's price while keeping it balanced.
Also, while having a decent in-battle regeneration, reducing Health Regeneration passive to 1% was necessary so that you can't simply get out of the battle when you want and come back like nothing happened in no time at all.
This remake will balance in and out battle regeneration of HoT in my opinion.




Now, onto the Bloodstone (also big tanks to Dr_JP for helping me with this idea).



Great item, but giving only mana regeneration does not make it very special since there are already a lot of great mana regenerating items in game that give better bonuses, so what I suggest is to add 0.5HP/second regeneration for each charge.
With 20 charges you will have only 10HP/sec regeneration, so there is no fear that this item will become a fountain in a pocket!

OR:

Add 1HP/second regeneration for each charge, but increase charge loss per death to 1/2.




And finally, onto the Mekansm.



This item is awesome early game, but becomes somewhat useless late game witch is a problem for lot of support heroes since it limits their item build a lot, so what I suggest is to make Mekansm upgradable like this so we can have a good and reliable in-battle healing item (I've also changed it's starting stats a bit):

+4/6/8/10 all attributes.
+5 armor.
+3/4/5/6 HP/second regeneration in 500 AoE Mekansm Aura (passive).
Heals 250/300/350/400 HP and gives +2/3/4/5 armor in 750 AoE Heal (active).
Armor bonus lasts 30 seconds, heal does not affect units that have been healed by any Restore in the last 30 seconds, Costs 125/150/175/200 mana, and has a 45/40/35/30 second cooldown.
Overall price of Mekansm would be 2306/3206/4105/5006.




Well, that's that.
What do you think?
I also recommend Dr_JP's slight remake of Nathrezim Buckler.
Only impact that it would have on my idea is that it would reduce it's price by 200 gold, but still, go to that link and support that idea!

  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Lithary; 06-14-2011 at 12:37 PM.
Old 10-26-2010, 01:27 PM   #2
Thiede
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,179
Blog Entries: 20
Thiede is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

I thought Battlefury should be up there.

And to a small extent, Hood.

Hell no for Vanguard.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:32 PM   #3
aestropher
Member
 
aestropher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,629
aestropher is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

How about a %heal for upgraded Mek's?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:40 PM   #4
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanthe View Post
I thought Battlefury should be up there.

And to a small extent, Hood.

Hell no for Vanguard.
Battlefury's purpose is not healing as much is damage and Cleave Attack.
Still, I think that it's fine as it is.
Same goes for Hood since it is not top tier item and can be upgraded to Pipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aestropher View Post
How about a %heal for upgraded Mek's?
I thought about that, but am not so sure.
Could easily make it too powerful.
Maybe make it's aura heal 0.25% of max HP per second could do, but I still have to think about it.
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by Lithary; 10-28-2010 at 11:16 PM.
Old 10-27-2010, 07:07 PM   #5
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

The bump!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 07:22 PM   #6
PEW_PEW
Member
 
PEW_PEW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 999
Blog Entries: 1
PEW_PEW is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Derp, what does Healt Regeneration do? You mentioned it for your heart remake but you didn't describe what it does.

Personally I would rather just see a remake on heart so that it only regenerate if the target takes damage in the last 10 seconds, but that's just my opinion.
__________________
>:3 Ɛ:<

Kool BeansI like notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenienteMani View Post
Also can u guys make a mode with no wards allowed, theyre rigged
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 10:29 PM   #7
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEW_PEW View Post
Derp, what does Healt Regeneration do? You mentioned it for your heart remake but you didn't describe what it does.

Personally I would rather just see a remake on heart so that it only regenerate if the target takes damage in the last 10 seconds, but that's just my opinion.
It's same as current HoT's regeneration.
I guess I should write that so no one gets confused again.
Your idea could work also, can you describe it a bit in detail like how much regeneration it would be?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 11:46 PM   #8
Dr_JP
Member
 
Dr_JP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where someone called for the Doctor?!
Posts: 1,477
Blog Entries: 3
Dr_JP is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

As we've discussed previously, I t-up this suggestions.

But I have my personal preferences about them:

Quote:
- HoT: Replace current recipe with 1 Ring of health. Passive +10 hp/sec constantly and current 2% out of battle regen. 325 total price buff.
To balance cheaper item, 35 str points again.

- Bloodstone: we lose 1/3 charges when we die. It would be perfect IMO!

- Mekansm: if IF wants, include my Buckler remake into it!
PS: Guys, don't you think that "tanks" extiction was good to DotA gameplay?

I mean reasonable tanks, not almost unkillable Axe's or Pudge after getting old HoT.

As I said, balancing is better than eliminating, at most cases.
__________________
Latest suggestion:

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2010, 12:00 AM   #9
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
As we've discussed previously, I t-up this suggestions.

But I have my personal preferences about them:


PS: Guys, don't you think that "tanks" extiction was good to DotA gameplay?

I mean reasonable tanks, not almost unkillable Axe's or Pudge after getting old HoT.

As I said, balancing is better than eliminating, at most cases.
I will also recommend your Buckler remake here so it gets some more attention.

I sad 'maybe' about charges, since I think that losing 1/3 of total charges is also fine, but will remove that part so no one thinks that I am supporting 1/2 charges lost per death.

About HoT, I'm not sure.
Removing recipe could make it too cheap in my opinion.
Also, I think that 10HP/sec regeneration might be too much and will demand a huge nerf to strength in order to balance it.
I will leave it for now like this and see what happens.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2010, 01:40 AM   #10
Dynes
Member
 
Dynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 3,866
Blog Entries: 4
Dynes is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Heart regenerating when player based damage is taken:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/300711/hot/

The thing with the old Bloodstone is that the more you kill, the harder you are to kill, not like Medusa made any difference anyway.

Mek:
Ehh...
Hmmm...
__________________
Dynes: I don't believe you. /care
My suggestions on my blog.
I'm sold!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2010, 11:22 PM   #11
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynes View Post
Heart regenerating when player based damage is taken:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/300711/hot/

The thing with the old Bloodstone is that the more you kill, the harder you are to kill, not like Medusa made any difference anyway.

Mek:
Ehh...
Hmmm...
I remember old BS.
Even though it is my favorite item, I thought that it should get nerfed.
The problem is, it got nerfed too much.
I think that this will do the trick.

HoT will actually stay like this since I think that it would be better this way than to give regeneration while only in battle (even though it is a still great idea and should be taken in consideration).

Mekansm is here to give you a strong heal, but low bonuses for it's price.
Current Mekansm does not help that much late game since 250HP heal every 45 sec is not something that amazing and support heroes don't get to shine as much as they should.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2010, 09:20 PM   #12
vimutti
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12
vimutti is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

T-Down
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:03 PM   #13
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by vimutti View Post
T-Down
Why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 12:37 PM   #14
arvinkasumi
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 399
arvinkasumi is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

it's a T-up for me... I honestly thought of how to balance those imba late games going for 2x HoT or sumthing like that...I mean they have the right to tank but not that unkillable... I guess we approached the subject differently. At my end, I proposed Scarcity mode to limit High tier items to some extent (not that i'm doing this for a free ad) but yours is great though...it's a t-up
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 01:56 PM   #15
Captain Planet
Member
 
Captain Planet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Frieza Planet 419, because nobody ever goes to Frieza Planet 419
Steam: Freaky Alien Genotype
Posts: 19,885
Blog Entries: 6
Suggestion Award 
Captain Planet is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by vimutti View Post
T-Down
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
Why?
That's one thing I don't like seeing in any of my suggestions either I like to know why I'm not getting someone's support, because the suggestion can be improved.

Change 10HP/sec to 8HP/sec methinks, or keep the 10HP/sec but make sure it doesn't stack with other HoTs.

For Bloodstone. Overnerfed item getting some TLC. Nothing bad there

If you're going to make Mek upgradeable, reduce the price of the recipe a bit, since it's going to cost a bucket load more overall. Say, 700g?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 08:54 PM   #16
ninguem
Member
 
ninguem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 620
ninguem is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

The reason DotA doesn't have very good in-battle healing items is because they have the capacity to totally warp (and ruin) the game. You even mentioned the 6.59 era, when Tarrasque gave 1% in battle regen and Bloodstone gave HP regen.

Current Tarrasque is fine, IMO. Your change would ruin the current "portable fountain" angle and just turn it into a big vanguard.

Your Bloodstone buff wouldn't help much. The biggest problem with BS is that it doesn't excel at anything (kind of like S%Y) and giving some HP regen wouldn't help here (while still risking imbalance).

I also don't think remaking Mek is a good idea. As you said, Mek is already a very good early item, and this is OK. Making it also a very good late item might basically force every team to get at least one (and if you make it so that the upgrades are not OP, then noone will ever get them, kind of like Dagon).

---

I understand that there could possibly be more space for in-battle regen items, but everything is working fine now, so I don't see a reason to risk something that could turn out to be a big change.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2010, 09:21 PM   #17
Dr_JP
Member
 
Dr_JP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Where someone called for the Doctor?!
Posts: 1,477
Blog Entries: 3
Dr_JP is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninguem View Post
The reason DotA doesn't have very good in-battle healing items is because they have the capacity to totally warp (and ruin) the game. You even mentioned the 6.59 era, when Tarrasque gave 1% in battle regen and Bloodstone gave HP regen.
That's a matter of number balance. Any feature (healing, DPS, disables), if they aren't balance, can warp (and ruin) the game.

Removing those features isn't the best solution.

Quote:
Current Tarrasque is fine, IMO. Your change would ruin the current "portable fountain" angle and just turn it into a big vanguard.
Portable fountain is kept (1% is not joke), and it's far away from a big vanguard because there's no during in-battle large regeneration.

Quote:
Your Bloodstone buff wouldn't help much. The biggest problem with BS is that it doesn't excel at anything (kind of like S%Y) and giving some HP regen wouldn't help here (while still risking imbalance).
That's called balancing. Of couse it's not like the old Bloodstone (imbalanced HP regen), but it can offer a feature (in a balanced way) without risking final balance (Bloodstone isn't cheap and "supports" number aren't retroactive, and you need 20 supports to have 16 hp/sec...)

Quote:
I also don't think remaking Mek is a good idea. As you said, Mek is already a very good early item, and this is OK. Making it also a very good late item might basically force every team to get at least one (and if you make it so that the upgrades are not OP, then noone will ever get them, kind of like Dagon).
IMO, this makensm isn't a very good item at late game. It's situational, since there are better ways to supports your teammates at late game depending on enemy team feature. It's just an option beyond Assault, and Mekansm is different from it (Heal + armor VERSUS armor + as + negative armor).

Look at those numbers of Heal and you'll see how powerful it'd be (overpowered by its price?)

---

Quote:
I understand that there could possibly be more space for in-battle regen items, but everything is working fine now, so I don't see a reason to risk something that could turn out to be a big change.
Icefrog tends to change the "optimal strategies" into differents eras.

6.6X era had not, almost, tanks. We don't want unkillable tanks, but I think some ppl miss playing this role effectivelly.
__________________
Latest suggestion:

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2010, 03:17 PM   #18
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninguem View Post
The reason DotA doesn't have very good in-battle healing items is because they have the capacity to totally warp (and ruin) the game. You even mentioned the 6.59 era, when Tarrasque gave 1% in battle regen and Bloodstone gave HP regen.

Current Tarrasque is fine, IMO. Your change would ruin the current "portable fountain" angle and just turn it into a big vanguard.

Your Bloodstone buff wouldn't help much. The biggest problem with BS is that it doesn't excel at anything (kind of like S%Y) and giving some HP regen wouldn't help here (while still risking imbalance).

I also don't think remaking Mek is a good idea. As you said, Mek is already a very good early item, and this is OK. Making it also a very good late item might basically force every team to get at least one (and if you make it so that the upgrades are not OP, then noone will ever get them, kind of like Dagon).

---

I understand that there could possibly be more space for in-battle regen items, but everything is working fine now, so I don't see a reason to risk something that could turn out to be a big change.
Dr_JP already answered to your comment, but I would still like to highlight one part and that this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
6.6X era had not, almost, tanks. We don't want unkillable tanks, but I think some ppl miss playing this role effectivelly.
This is biggest reason why I am trying to remake these items.
I don't want tanks to feel like they are having one way ticket to sure death when they go into the battle, but give them a chance to survive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2010, 04:14 PM   #19
Ultra_Rasengan
Member
 
Ultra_Rasengan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of the Three Stars and a Sun
Posts: 2,719
Blog Entries: 23
Ultra_Rasengan is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

t-null
__________________

Want a Dota 2 Gift? I want a Minecraft Gift Code, let's trade via steam and PM, click here
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 10:08 AM   #20
Sly_theK1ng
Member
 
Sly_theK1ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,697
Sly_theK1ng is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

t-up i wanna see that regen from HoT in battles
nowadays HoT is useless compared to butter and guinsoo
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2010, 08:05 PM   #21
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_Rasengan View Post
t-null
What are your doubts about this?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 01:57 AM   #22
JeanLucPicard
Member
 
JeanLucPicard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 247
JeanLucPicard is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEW_PEW View Post
Personally I would rather just see a remake on heart so that it only regenerate if the target takes damage in the last 10 seconds, but that's just my opinion.
The idea behind HoT remake (not this one) was to remake an item that profits from prolonging a fight (1%hp/sec) into one that gives more direct stats, and heals you as you push (2%hp/sec while pushing that doesn't work during combat).

Since I see no point in 10hp/sec combined with 1% hp/sec i will t-null on your HoT idea...
T-up on other 2 tho... bloodstone and meka are going into oblivion...
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 11:14 PM   #23
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanLucPicard View Post
The idea behind HoT remake (not this one) was to remake an item that profits from prolonging a fight (1%hp/sec) into one that gives more direct stats, and heals you as you push (2%hp/sec while pushing that doesn't work during combat).

Since I see no point in 10hp/sec combined with 1% hp/sec i will t-null on your HoT idea...
T-up on other 2 tho... bloodstone and meka are going into oblivion...
While I do agree that 1% was too much and could make fights irritating, I doubt that my idea will prolong fights for to much, while it will still give a decent regeneration for pushing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 10:02 AM   #24
megboklek
Member
 
megboklek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 481
megboklek is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

I totally agree with the Mekansm and Bloodstone tweaks.

HoT on the other hand is a piece of thrash, not worth its price, so twisting-turning it won't help. I still don't know what's the point in buying a powerful tanking item if you can't use its most important feature, that imba regen.

Why not alter Satanic so you can only use its active on creeps? /sarcasm off
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2010, 11:51 AM   #25
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [remake of few items

Quote:
Originally Posted by megboklek View Post
I totally agree with the Mekansm and Bloodstone tweaks.

HoT on the other hand is a piece of thrash, not worth its price, so twisting-turning it won't help. I still don't know what's the point in buying a powerful tanking item if you can't use its most important feature, that imba regen.

Why not alter Satanic so you can only use its active on creeps? /sarcasm off
True, but at least this remake will help a bit, I hope.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2010, 01:02 PM   #26
DenSiL7
Member
 
DenSiL7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: RuSSia
Posts: 260
DenSiL7 is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

T-up to meka and bloodstone
__________________

DTS 4ever!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2010, 04:49 PM   #27
Dream Coil
Member
 
Dream Coil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 168
Dream Coil is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

hmmm upgradable meka is nice T-up
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2010, 04:59 PM   #28
JJE92
Forum Staff
 
JJE92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In your Balance Debates. Closing your threads.
Posts: 6,976
Blog Entries: 9
Suggestion Award 
JJE92 is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

HoT: 10 HP-regen is nothing to joke about, it would be the highest raw HP-regen in-game. I'm actually not sure about this. The 40 STR already grant 1.2 bonus HP regen in-battle by itself. I personally think 10 HP-regen in-battle is often not worth as much as 1% HP-regen outside of battle.
Currently, the meta-game is mainly full of nukes and burst damage. If enemies focus you and you're not dead after 4 seconds, then it's already obvious that they're on the loosing side. But within 4 seconds, this regen is useless. It's only really useful if the battle goes on for at least 25 seconds, which is a lot.
The 1% HP-regen and 40 STR are far more useful. They can grant you enough HP to survive the first bursts and get out of the centre in time. After that, you could get out of the battle. With the high HP-regen outside of battle, you could even make your come-back if the battle still drags on or goes into chasing.
So currently, I would simply say that 1% HP-regen outside of battle is way more useful than the 10 HP-regen in-battle.

With Bloodstone it's kind of similar. You'd have to nerf its MP-regen and I personally find the high MP-regen much more useful than a high HP-regen due to reasons explained before. It could easily become overkill or too nerfed.

Meka is different, because it's a burst heal and can as such easily safe lives. It's relatively powerful early-game, because a 250 HP heal means a lot. With this change, Mekansm could have an even stronger impact on the outcome of a game, because 400 HP healed and +5 armor is just an immense bonus.
However, I would say it's rather balanced this time. Looking at the price and at which heroes get Mekansm, there's only few which would actually farm that much gold (special mention Necro).
I like the idea, but it could easily become oped or not level upped at all, so it needs to be worked out carefully. TUp for concept
__________________
[DRAFT GUIDE]Roles in DotA - An Attempt to Clear Some Confusion
[Guide] What does a hero truly need?
JJE's Portfolio (still in Progress)

How to find all threads with the search function:
- Disable the option "Also search in child forums"
- Change settings to "Find Posts from Any Date and Older"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero(PS) View Post
voting just for the sake of it is not democracy - voting with consciousness is democracy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2010, 06:56 PM   #29
SuperFizzBoy
Member
 
SuperFizzBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 209
SuperFizzBoy is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

T-Up on Bloodstone and Mek.
T-Up on HoT's recipe. But I still like that 0.5% In-Battle reg over 10HP/sec

FizzBoy.
__________________

[Components and gains] Soul Booster
[Overhaul] Liquid Fire
Extremely effective Phase Boots
remake
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 02:50 PM   #30
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
HoT: 10 HP-regen is nothing to joke about, it would be the highest raw HP-regen in-game. I'm actually not sure about this. The 40 STR already grant 1.2 bonus HP regen in-battle by itself. I personally think 10 HP-regen in-battle is often not worth as much as 1% HP-regen outside of battle.
Currently, the meta-game is mainly full of nukes and burst damage. If enemies focus you and you're not dead after 4 seconds, then it's already obvious that they're on the loosing side. But within 4 seconds, this regen is useless. It's only really useful if the battle goes on for at least 25 seconds, which is a lot.
The 1% HP-regen and 40 STR are far more useful. They can grant you enough HP to survive the first bursts and get out of the centre in time. After that, you could get out of the battle. With the high HP-regen outside of battle, you could even make your come-back if the battle still drags on or goes into chasing.
So currently, I would simply say that 1% HP-regen outside of battle is way more useful than the 10 HP-regen in-battle.
That is absolutely true, but I think that it could become too powerful.
I think that it was reason why it was removed from old HoT.
1% HP regeneration/second will permanently and passively heal 40HP/sec to a 4K HP hero!
That's quite a lot of in-battle regeneration.
Also, to see a 4K HP hero with HoT is nothing strange since HoT already gives you over 1K HP by itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
With Bloodstone it's kind of similar. You'd have to nerf its MP-regen and I personally find the high MP-regen much more useful than a high HP-regen due to reasons explained before. It could easily become overkill or too nerfed.
Only nerf that this item could use in this case is to increase charges lost per death (from 1/3 to 1/2) and that's that.
Still, I don't think that it is OP with 1/3 charges lost per death since HP regeneration bonus is not that huge and in reality you WILL die and therefore be unable to gather enough charges to make you a regeneration freak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
Meka is different, because it's a burst heal and can as such easily safe lives. It's relatively powerful early-game, because a 250 HP heal means a lot. With this change, Mekansm could have an even stronger impact on the outcome of a game, because 400 HP healed and +5 armor is just an immense bonus.
However, I would say it's rather balanced this time. Looking at the price and at which heroes get Mekansm, there's only few which would actually farm that much gold (special mention Necro).
I like the idea, but it could easily become oped or not level upped at all, so it needs to be worked out carefully. TUp for concept
I think that leveling up is a good idea since it is best way to make it give bonuses worth of money spent for it.
Now, we can discuss if bonuses/price should go up/down, but I'm glad that you like the concept of it.
It could become a nice late game item for supporters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFizzBoy View Post
T-Up on Bloodstone and Mek.
T-Up on HoT's recipe. But I still like that 0.5% In-Battle reg over 10HP/sec

FizzBoy.
Yeah, me too.
But the problem is that it could be OP (especially on beasts like Centaur).
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 03:33 PM   #31
RazorCrime
Member
 
RazorCrime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Romania
Posts: 495
RazorCrime is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Ideas are good, but RoR in HoT? I mean a 350g little ring in a 5.5k gold uber item? doesen't sound ok. Also, who would give 5k gold for a meka? Procentual healing sound better for me, but again not making it OP is triky. But t-up for in-battle healing anyway.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 07:02 PM   #32
alexik
Member
 
alexik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 170
alexik is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

T-up at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2010, 08:37 PM   #33
JJE92
Forum Staff
 
JJE92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In your Balance Debates. Closing your threads.
Posts: 6,976
Blog Entries: 9
Suggestion Award 
JJE92 is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
That is absolutely true, but I think that it could become too powerful.
I think that it was reason why it was removed from old HoT.
1% HP regeneration/second will permanently and passively heal 40HP/sec to a 4K HP hero!
That's quite a lot of in-battle regeneration.
Also, to see a 4K HP hero with HoT is nothing strange since HoT already gives you over 1K HP by itself.
I actually meant that I'd prefer an additional 1% HP regen/second out of battle over a 10 HP regen/second in battle, Idk if you understood that correctly, it didn't sound like it.
__________________
[DRAFT GUIDE]Roles in DotA - An Attempt to Clear Some Confusion
[Guide] What does a hero truly need?
JJE's Portfolio (still in Progress)

How to find all threads with the search function:
- Disable the option "Also search in child forums"
- Change settings to "Find Posts from Any Date and Older"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero(PS) View Post
voting just for the sake of it is not democracy - voting with consciousness is democracy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 05:41 AM   #34
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by RazorCrime View Post
Ideas are good, but RoR in HoT? I mean a 350g little ring in a 5.5k gold uber item? doesen't sound ok. Also, who would give 5k gold for a meka? Procentual healing sound better for me, but again not making it OP is triky. But t-up for in-battle healing anyway.
If I've put RoH as part of recipe, it would look too much like recipe for Vanguard and putting several RoR would simply make this recipe have to much components.
But then again, I don't see a problem with RoR being part of HoT.
I mean, Orb of Venom is part of EoS and that item is worst peace of crap than RoR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
I actually meant that I'd prefer an additional 1% HP regen/second out of battle over a 10 HP regen/second in battle, Idk if you understood that correctly, it didn't sound like it.
You mean to say that you prefer current HoT regeneration instead suggested one?
Hmmm, if that's the case then I can tell you that this is much better this way in my opinion.
True that 2%/sec out-battle regeneration is better than 1%+10HP/sec regeneration, but remember that fixed number regeneration stacks witch is an advantage over old regeneration, % healing has shorter cooldown witch can be very useful when being chased and sometimes while chasing and you have some in-battle regeneration unlike with current HoT.
For those reasons it think that suggested HoT > current HoT.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 06:49 PM   #35
JJE92
Forum Staff
 
JJE92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In your Balance Debates. Closing your threads.
Posts: 6,976
Blog Entries: 9
Suggestion Award 
JJE92 is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithary View Post
You mean to say that you prefer current HoT regeneration instead suggested one?
Hmmm, if that's the case then I can tell you that this is much better this way in my opinion.
True that 2%/sec out-battle regeneration is better than 1%+10HP/sec regeneration, but remember that fixed number regeneration stacks witch is an advantage over old regeneration, % healing has shorter cooldown witch can be very useful when being chased and sometimes while chasing and you have some in-battle regeneration unlike with current HoT.
For those reasons it think that suggested HoT > current HoT.
Well, that's what I meant.
% healing having shorter CD is another thing, I find it ok.
In-battle regeneration however isn't that useful and the 1% more HP-regen outside of battle is far superior Imo.
__________________
[DRAFT GUIDE]Roles in DotA - An Attempt to Clear Some Confusion
[Guide] What does a hero truly need?
JJE's Portfolio (still in Progress)

How to find all threads with the search function:
- Disable the option "Also search in child forums"
- Change settings to "Find Posts from Any Date and Older"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero(PS) View Post
voting just for the sake of it is not democracy - voting with consciousness is democracy!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2010, 01:23 AM   #36
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJE92 View Post
Well, that's what I meant.
% healing having shorter CD is another thing, I find it ok.
In-battle regeneration however isn't that useful and the 1% more HP-regen outside of battle is far superior Imo.
I find in-battle regeneration very useful and it can help you survive.
With this remake, your out-battle regeneration is still very strong while you also gain an in-battle regeneration, witch I find very useful and can save lives.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2010, 05:08 PM   #37
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

Bump!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2011, 08:48 PM   #38
GrinnValesti
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 13
GrinnValesti is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

T-up..

I like the Mekansm, and upgrading it would not be that easy for supports since they lack farming power... so the 900 recipe is balanced. But retain the cooldown and we're all good. 30 secs CD is too much even with the increase mana cost.

WR could buy the upgrade easily though, but she would sacrifice having better items like Guinsoo (since she's not purely support) for this Meka upgrade. Necrolyte too, but yeah, he would have to sacrifice better items for a 900 gold scroll... so still balanced.
  Reply With Quote
Last edited by GrinnValesti; 02-03-2011 at 07:09 PM.
Old 02-02-2011, 06:51 AM   #39
Domenico
Forum Staff
 
Domenico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Moscow, Russia
Steam: barrogh
Posts: 9,473
Domenico is offline
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me

It won't be implemented. IF battles against generic in-combat healing with zeal to make it unique feature of certain heroes.
__________________

"The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments."
Friedrich Nietzsche

------------------------------------------
DC and VG mod. Feel free to PM me with your concerns.
My Steam
Note that I have that infamous edit-a-lot-after-posting syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 03:11 PM   #40
Lithary
Member
 
Lithary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Split, Croatia
Posts: 5,879
Blog Entries: 1
Lithary is online now
Default Re: Improve in-battle healing [Remake of HoT/BS/Me


Only because something is generic, it doesn't mean it's bad.
Breathing is generic, but it's pretty damn good thing in my opinion.
Generic =/= Bad
Unique =/= Good
I know that this is probably to support supporters (lol), but still, these items will actually help those supporters the most (BS and Meka, witch would probably help them even more), but still give tanks some of their own regeneration.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
  Defense of the Ancients Suggestions Remakes


Forum Jump

Thread Tools


forum staff