[Hero] Invoker ,simple and important suggestion

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Unfawkable

Didn't know that..... that sux :P
Quas is survivability, how can you say a 600 HP hero doesn't need 5HP/sec? You get nuked, go to base plox, WTF O_o ofc you need regen

lol,I just said that instead of 4.50 hp/sec he needs 6 hp/sec to survive ...Basically it is only for surviving,but then again how are you supposed to dive in with that set up spells like Icewall and Cold snap with 600 life and not have a 6hp/sec regen to support you!

[0r1m]

nerf exort

[A.R]

All I can say is.. Quas doesn't help you to kill. Each aspect has it's own pros and cons. You can't just balance them with numbers

[SAGE]

I guess it will be better if Quas provide a little mana regen.

[Teifion]

Good logic and good maths. I've always leveled Exort first for this reason though can't say that I play the invoker that often.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by SAGE

I guess it will be better if Quas provide a little mana regen.

For now I can't suggest anything like this,because there are 2 scenarios:
1]Invoker becomes overpowered in mid game and generally he doesn't need more mana regen items than a sobi mask or a void stone->He isn't meant to be a destroyer
2]Its mana regen is so weak,it won't make any difference at all.

There is no way to balance this,so I suggest we stick to the buffing idea :P

Originally Posted by A.R

All I can say is.. Quas doesn't help you to kill. Each aspect has it's own pros and cons. You can't just balance them with numbers

Quas is not about killing,but staying in a line and playing the role of the semi-tank-disabler.Abilities like Cold snap and Ice wall desperately need hp regen,because they need Invoker to dive in!

I think the strategy should go like this:
Early game you level mostly 1 instance.If is it Quas,it is regen-disabler build,preferably good for fast dps ally,like a huskar,mortred or Phadom lancer.If it is Wex,it is IAS and IMS combined with set up skills for nuker ally because you will always prepare the battlefield for them(emp,tornado).Finally if it is Exort,you have deffinetly a disabler ally with you,so the only thing left is for you is to take the lead to kill...
Unfortunatly Quas and Wex do not represent the above in their full potential,meaning you can't repeatedly tank with 4.5 hp/sec in level 4,nor can you move quickly and set tornado in a close distance etc...

[Redeemed A.I.]

Bump for the glory of Quel Thalas

[Offsure]

Originally Posted by Kasad

-Level 7 all instances Wex equal to 42% IAS and 21% IMS.Wex==3 gloves of haste and a boots of speed~=2000 gold (wex is seriously weak,I mean,not even a hyperstone and a boots of speed that doesn't apply on other MS bonus items!)

Logic sucks. 21% MS is worth WAY more than 500g. People would buy boots of speed even if they costed 1500g.

[Milli]

I think your right - I go Exort above everything else even after the Meteor & Blast nerfs just because it's far superior to Quas and Wex.
Also (as already stated) BoS is worth more than 500 gold, it's just plain imbalanced. But even with 1000 gold BoS Wex would still be the weakest.

[suecochileno]

You may be right that he needs a rebalance but your logic is completly wrong.
Yo cant compare items to skill and then put a value in gold to the skill.
Because.
the amount of money for 1 damage depends on the item you buy (divide the cost of the item by the damage it gives).
You cant put a value to movment speed and say that 50ms = 500g. If your logick where right you would say that in game it does not matter if you get blades of attack or boots of speed because they are equal worth and if they are equal worth in money. Are they equal important?

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by suecochileno

You may be right that he needs a rebalance but your logic is completly wrong.
Yo cant compare items to skill and then put a value in gold to the skill.
Because.
the amount of money for 1 damage depends on the item you buy (divide the cost of the item by the damage it gives).
You cant put a value to movment speed and say that 50ms = 500g. If your logick where right you would say that in game it does not matter if you get blades of attack or boots of speed because they are equal worth and if they are equal worth in money. Are they equal important?

I will set it simply so you see why it does make sense:
-Each level of Quas is basically one ring of regen.
-Each level of Exort is basically one blades of attack.
That's my initial point of view.Don't you think it's unfair for Invoker

And what do I "whine" about?A simple +0.75 hp/sec per Quas level (NOT per instance of Quas,because that would be nutts)

Also:

-In level 13 you will have Boots of Speed...That is mid game!
Do you really think that you can win enemies with half gloves of haste and 7.6 MS per level of Wex?I thought not..

[Zakharov]

I disagree with your rationale, but I agree that the Quas and Wex orbs are underpowered relative to Exort. Another option would be to have Wex give mana regeneration instead of IAS/MS and bump Invoker's base movespeed up to 295-305.
On the other hand, Exort/Quas and Wex/Quas builds are approximately equal in power level. Buffing the Wex and Quas orbs to a power level equal to Exort takes away the major advantage of the Exort build, and may reduce Invoker to just one viable build unless other balance changes are made.

[WrathoftheLamb]

T-UP

Makes sense to me

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Zakharov

I disagree with your rationale, but I agree that the Quas and Wex orbs are underpowered relative to Exort. Another option would be to have Wex give mana regeneration instead of IAS/MS and bump Invoker's base movespeed up to 295-305.

Well,sorry that I couldn't find anything better,but I wanted to show you people that something is still wrong with Quas and Wex...
I'd really love to see "increases MS by 2.8 per level per instance" that would help much more newbies to realise %MS doesn't stack with other ms items (like I once thought)

Originally Posted by Zakharov

On the other hand, Exort/Quas and Wex/Quas builds are approximately equal in power level. Buffing the Wex and Quas orbs to a power level equal to Exort takes away the major advantage of the Exort build, and may reduce Invoker to just one viable build unless other balance changes are made.

Yeah I am almost sure they are,but as I mentioned before:

-Quas is best to level if you have carrier,so you can semi-tank and regenerate,while trying to protect your ally and use buffs like Cold snap he can do the rest.
-Wex is best if you have a mage or caster or spammer ally,so you can totally help him by giving the EMP's and couple fast hits->block enemy with increased MS and let your ally land piecefully his nukes/disables.
-Exort is...pure damage,it suits best for disabler ally,mostly slow/stun type.

You know,I once tried the "balanced" Invoker,meaning I've leveled each and every instance equally.The results of the skills were magnificent,I think it would be just awesome to combine this potential with an Aghanim's,but the problem is,only Exort really did help me,while wex couldn't actually close the gap of 280 base MS speed and Quas couldn't hold me in a lane without preseverance...I was really sad that day and I realised Invoker (with these passives included) could only level one max instance at a time...
Maybe if Icefrog buffs or even rework Quas and Wex (I would just love to see wex giving low mp regen instead of IAS) I think we might see even the balanced Invoker from a player that can use all spells in the least time....sigh*

[Zack1996]

Invoker's basic skills could use some nerfs IMO. Why not just nerf exort?
If he gets too much attack speed/damage. Cold Snap = Ownage.
I haven't played Invoker in a while so I can't say much. Null vote for now.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Zack1996

Invoker's basic skills could use some nerfs IMO. Why not just nerf exort?
If he gets too much attack speed/damage. Cold Snap = Ownage.
I haven't played Invoker in a while so I can't say much. Null vote for now.

I hope you are joking about anything concerning nerf on Invoker...
....care to clarify why do such thing?

P.S. Cold snap owns only after level 5,which is 9 level Invoker in the best scenario >_>

[Kilki[DM]]

so you think u get 21% movement speed at lvl 5?

no as it is now W is the last reagent u lvl since its so under powered and only gives like 3%-6%-9% instead of 9-18-27 damage so all of you are saying that + 21% movement speed are imba at lvl 25 ?

[cezar_sl]

I'd rather have Quas give mana regen.
Wex is good once you don't need to rely on Exort for damage.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Bump

[Sejr]

i've played nothing but invoker (almost) since release of 6.60 and i dont think he needs anything right now. And if he does it certainly isnt in the buffing of his orbs. Exort has certain advantages, but you cant put it up just as simple as saying dmg is wroth this, ms and as is worth this. tradiotionally the "cheap" ms points are on all heroes (boots) but anything beyond that is normally very expensive. If your ms is but a tiny bit higher than everyone else it makes a huge difference in terms of escaping an chasing. I'd rather leave invoker for a few more patches, very VERY few people can yet play him to his potential and he has yet to reach his maximum popularity in competitive (but he will, trust me on this) even without a buff.