[Hero] Invoker ,simple and important suggestion

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Sejr

i've played nothing but invoker (almost) since release of 6.60 and i dont think he needs anything right now. And if he does it certainly isnt in the buffing of his orbs. Exort has certain advantages, but you cant put it up just as simple as saying dmg is wroth this, ms and as is worth this. tradiotionally the "cheap" ms points are on all heroes (boots) but anything beyond that is normally very expensive. If your ms is but a tiny bit higher than everyone else it makes a huge difference in terms of escaping an chasing. I'd rather leave invoker for a few more patches, very VERY few people can yet play him to his potential and he has yet to reach his maximum popularity in competitive (but he will, trust me on this) even without a buff.

I've been playing Invoker since he was introduced and I've seen many changes in version after version.However,even though there were many balances in his spells (I still don't like Ghost walk and Icewall) there were no buffs at all to his most basic strategy:instances.
You are playing 1 week invoker so you know how Sun strike works.So I tell you,Wex is splitting its effect on Invoker.Invoker doesn't need attack speed,none of his skills require IAS like Cold snap.They don't even need MS to begin with,except maybe to land a faster Ice wall or run "faster" with Ghost walk (if you can call 1 wex instance "faster" ).

And don't you agree that if you could take with 0 money a ring of regen or a blades of attack,you would deffinetly go for blades?Especially if you are range hero?

[Lycan]

-Level 7 all instances Wex equal to 42% IAS and 21% IMS.Wex==3 gloves of haste and a boots of speed~=2000 gold (wex is seriously weak,I mean,not even a hyperstone and a boots of speed that doesn't apply on other MS bonus items!)

if use your math but take the expensive items.... .... hyper + yasha i'm close to your numbers and it exceeds relic in costs.

I've seen a suggestion with stats on quas wex exort and i prefer that one tbh.

Wex gives better dmg in sololy attack than exort... exort only improves your lasthitting....

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Lycan

-Level 7 all instances Wex equal to 42% IAS and 21% IMS.Wex==3 gloves of haste and a boots of speed~=2000 gold (wex is seriously weak,I mean,not even a hyperstone and a boots of speed that doesn't apply on other MS bonus items!)

if use your math but take the expensive items.... .... hyper + yasha i'm close to your numbers and it exceeds relic in costs.

I've seen a suggestion with stats on quas wex exort and i prefer that one tbh.

Wex gives better dmg in sololy attack than exort... exort only improves your lasthitting....

First of all,hyperstone and a yasha do stack together(agility stacks with hyperstone's IAS),so they are not quite 42% but rather ~55%.
Secondly,I can't simply agree with you that Exort is lower damage passive than Wex.All you need in early-mid game is to give couple hits with Invoker and these are now enough to bring the life of a pudge or a treant to half with 3-4 hits and if you think 1/3 gloves of haste per Wex is better dps skill than 27 damage,be my guess

Also the suggestion about status will by no means give Invoker what he is meant to do:Use his passives to aid him with his skills.If anything the status will solve this problem (and what are you suppossed to do with agility bonus again )

Any hero has his weaknesses,Invoker and others tend to have their status too much lower,but they have great advantages over hybrid builds and skills.I don't believe we should just give him life or mp and say that a day.I reccomend you read my thoughts about playstyle with quas and wex and I think you will agree that we should first try an Invoker with balanced passives,then decide about +7 to status in level 25

[JohnnyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Kasad

Um,I still don't get it how a ring of regeneration skill upgrade is equal with a blades of attack skill upgrade.Especially on a hero that needs anything but a ring of health in level 5 with 600 hp with life items..
Also I've made something wrong:
Invoker's ms without level 7 Wex==280
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex ==339....+59 ms
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex and boots of speed == 399...+0 ms
oh well I made a miscalculation there,It seems Wex does gives you a boots of speed,but instead it doesn't apply on boots of speed XD,while everyone else' pasives with %MS bonus are stacking with boots...

280 base ms
330 base ms + boots
1,21 (lvl7 wex) x 330 = 399...

so the 21% ms from Wex applies to boots

i agree that Wex need a better sinergy with the hero aside the ms bonus...
Quas and Exort are Ok IMO

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBalboa

280 base ms
330 base ms + boots
1,21 (lvl7 wex) x 330 = 399...

so the 21% ms from Wex applies to boots

i agree that Wex need a better sinergy with the hero aside the ms bonus...
Quas and Exort are Ok IMO

21% ms doesn't apply to boots.It is 2.8 ms per instance per level of Wex.So that is 330 with boots and 388,8 with Wex+boots...you can have these precious boots and the nice IAS in level 13....
So are you willing to underlevel Quas and Exort in order to "just" get +58 ms and 42% IAS?And don't tell me that 8,4 MS will save you from your doom..even krobelus used to get the same MS,but she did so in order to upgrade her carrion swarm...a lot

[JohnnyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Kasad

Um,I still don't get it how a ring of regeneration skill upgrade is equal with a blades of attack skill upgrade.Especially on a hero that needs anything but a ring of health in level 5 with 600 hp with life items..
Also I've made something wrong:
Invoker's ms without level 7 Wex==280
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex ==339....+59 ms
Invoker's ms with level 7 Wex and boots of speed == 399...+0 ms
oh well I made a miscalculation there,It seems Wex does gives you a boots of speed,but instead it doesn't apply on boots of speed XD,while everyone else' pasives with %MS bonus are stacking with boots...

Originally Posted by Kasad

21% ms doesn't apply to boots.It is 2.8 ms per instance per level of Wex.So that is 330 with boots and 388,8 with Wex+boots...you can have these precious boots and the nice IAS in level 13....
So are you willing to underlevel Quas and Exort in order to "just" get +58 ms and 42% IAS?And don't tell me that 8,4 MS will save you from your doom..even krobelus used to get the same MS,but she did so in order to upgrade her carrion swarm...a lot

You first stated that invoker with boots and lvl7 wex summed up 399 ms...
now it sums up 388....

I just tested in the map... invoker with boots and lvl 7 wex gets 399 ms (280+50)x1,21=399 so how the hell boots doesn't stack with wex
If you state that Wex don't stacks with boots... it should be something like... (280x1,21)+50 = 388.. but the value is 399

And about Wex... i really think that the Ias should be replaced with some usefull stuff...
Exort should stay the same and Quas could get a little buff

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBalboa

You first stated that invoker with boots and lvl7 wex summed up 399 ms...
now it sums up 388....

I just tested in the map... invoker with boots and lvl 7 wex gets 399 ms (280+50)x1,21=399 so how the hell boots doesn't stack with wex
If you state that Wex don't stacks with boots... it should be something like... (280x1,21)+50 = 388.. but the value is 399

And about Wex... i really think that the Ias should be replaced with some usefull stuff...
Exort should stay the same and Quas could get a little buff

y,it seems you are right.I don't know why I didn't notice it (damn I am staying too late at forums >.<)

And thanks for the info,I will update the post

p.s. the wex IAS should be changed with mana regen,but that might be overpowered

[JohnnyBalboa]

Agreed! Mana regen would be the only choice for him oO. Maybe 0.8 def per lvl and stance? summing 14,7 def with lvl7 Wex.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Well for now I can't suggest a remake of the passives,I only try to make them more useful.




p.s. Why don't you make a suggestion about mana regen /%IMS for Wex ;p

[Ramodkk]

Originally Posted by Kasad

Let's say you have 1575 life Invoker with Heart of Tarrasque giving him only the 1% hp (not strength and not life bonuses).

Problem is, we dont have those kind of HoTs around. They all give +STR and +HP

Although, it makes sense to buff his skills a bit, your logic relating items to skills is not viable.

For example, why dont you compare the 15.75HP/s regen from Quas to Rings of Regeneration instead of Rings of Health? Rings of Regeneration (2HP/s x 8 = 16) would cost 2800. Thats more than 2650 from Rings of Health. Also, 21% movement speed is NOT equal to Boots of Speed. 21% movements speed gives more MS than Boots of Speed on ANY hero.

Ironically, after all that ^ I do agree that he needs a buff on Quas and Wex. If you ever make a suggestion on this with a poll, guarantee my T-UP.

[JohnnyBalboa]

Well... the only heroes that have a mana regen (passive) mechanism are cristal, harbinger and necro, and of this 3, only cristal have a "don't need to move a finger to regen".

Kael have a low int gain compared to 4/5 int heroes in dota so to balance this... with Wex .... 0.15 mana/sec and 1%ms per level/stance. So at level 5 kale with lvl 3 wex and 3 stances he would have (without items) 0.89 +1,28+1,35=3,52 mana regen and 9% ms... sounds Imba to someone??


At level 13 with 2 bracers + boots + ogre axe + staff of wizardry +point booster.
he would have: 0,89 + 68 x 0,04 + 3,15 = 6,76 mana/sec souds good to me
normally invoker at this level in 6.60b would change a staff for a voidstone and achieve 0.89 + 58 x 2 x 0,04 = 5,53 mana/sec.

So what you think???

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBalboa

Well... the only heroes that have a mana regen (passive) mechanism are cristal, harbinger and necro, and of this 3, only cristal have a "don't need to move a finger to regen".

Kael have a low int gain compared to 4/5 int heroes in dota so to balance this... with Wex .... 0.15 mana/sec and 1%ms per level/stance. So at level 5 kale with lvl 3 wex and 3 stances he would have (without items) 0.89 +1,28+1,35=3,52 mana regen and 9% ms... sounds Imba to someone??


At level 13 with 2 bracers + boots + ogre axe + staff of wizardry +point booster.
he would have: 0,89 + 68 x 0,04 + 3,15 = 6,76 mana/sec souds good to me
normally invoker at this level in 6.60b would change a staff for a voidstone and achieve 0.89 + 58 x 2 x 0,04 = 5,53 mana/sec.

So what you think???

You leave me no choice but to tell you my thoughts,which might be off topic:

It would indeed be like leveling a lesser sobi mask,but it would still be underpowered in early levels.Just look at that table:
Level 1: 0.45 mp/sec
Level 3:0.9 mp/sec
Level 5:1.35 mp/sec
Level 7:1,8 mp/sec
Level 9:2,25 mp/sec
Level 11:2,7 mp/sec
Level 13:3,15 mp/sec

Well,the only thing that you could possibly do with such mediocre mp regen would be to spawn endlessly low mana spells such as EMP and Alacrity...but you will still need 63 seconds (only Wex regen included) to Invoke a meteor or worse,79 to Invoke a defeaning blast with Wex lvl 7 !
But if we make it 0.6 per level,the table would look like:

Level 1: 0.6 mp/sec
Level 3:1.2 mp/sec
Level 5:1.8 mp/sec
Level 7:2.6 mp/sec
Level 9:3 mp/sec
Level 11:3.6 mp/sec
Level 13:4.2 mp/sec

In level 4 Wex you have +0.6 regen better than brilliance,it is of course applying only to yourself,but in late game you have a "free" meteor every 47,6 seconds (comparing to 55 sec cd) and 59 seconds Defeaning blast (comparing to 40 sec cd)..

Well I don't want another Wex being "mediocre" in mp regen like present Quas (not in value,but in potential) and I'm not sure if high mp/sec numbers would be balanced or overpowered..BUT I could deffinetly accept a powerful early mp/sec mediocre IMS,than a steady weak IAS/mediocre IMS

[fcb110]

I agree, not many people appreciate invoker. And I agree with what you are saying especially with the formulas(which I didn't want understand because I hate math) as proof. I was actually wondering if they could make it three spells, because when I do a combo Mask of madness + Alacrity + Meteor + deafening blast I waste precious seconds on the reagents because he's interrupted when he changes them, then the enemy gets and some nearby hero kill steals them.

[IplayRandom]

A complete rebalance of ALL heroes will be needed if we start following that kind of logic. Heroes are heroes and items are items, two seperate worlds in DotA.

Furthermore, I think it mostly depends on how the player wants to use his other abilities, and not so much what elements for their respective bonuses. Sure, most people prefer farming, by maxing dmg and then using Meteor. But I have also see some pretty nasty Invokers, using EMP + Tornado, for total lane control.

Truth is, a hero so versatile shouldn't really receive any more buffs, otherwise he will become even harder to counter.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by IplayRandom

A complete rebalance of ALL heroes will be needed if we start following that kind of logic. Heroes are heroes and items are items, two seperate worlds in DotA.

Furthermore, I think it mostly depends on how the player wants to use his other abilities, and not so much what elements for their respective bonuses. Sure, most people prefer farming, by maxing dmg and then using Meteor. But I have also see some pretty nasty Invokers, using EMP + Tornado, for total lane control.

Truth is, a hero so versatile shouldn't really receive any more buffs, otherwise he will become even harder to counter.

I have once tried to be "nasty" by using EMP and Tornado.The truth is,I didn't need tornado to activate EMP,it has already good expire timer above level 4 and with a simple ally stun,you will make sure he is hit with EMP.Also tornado really sucks at early levels,its duration is not enough even to lift the enemy for >2 seconds or dealing damage.Tornado's sole purpose is to stop channeling spells from afar,chase 100 life fleeing units (like mirana or antimage) or scout in areas..but it can't do anything else...but that's another story >_>

If you are a pro Invoker,why shouldn't your versatility skills counter towards enemy?Every hero has its counters,Invoker should have only high damage nukers and that shouldn't be a problem in the late game,because Invoker is the only hero that gets his full potential in level 25...23 with the new Aghanims...

[Synchronize]

in my mind i guess wex IAS should be improved. quas is kinda find.

[Sejr]

Originally Posted by Kasad

I've been playing Invoker since he was introduced and I've seen many changes in version after version.However,even though there were many balances in his spells (I still don't like Ghost walk and Icewall) there were no buffs at all to his most basic strategy:instances.
You are playing 1 week invoker so you know how Sun strike works.So I tell you,Wex is splitting its effect on Invoker.Invoker doesn't need attack speed,none of his skills require IAS like Cold snap.They don't even need MS to begin with,except maybe to land a faster Ice wall or run "faster" with Ghost walk (if you can call 1 wex instance "faster" ).

And don't you agree that if you could take with 0 money a ring of regen or a blades of attack,you would deffinetly go for blades?Especially if you are range hero?

I did not play invoker for one week, im a betatester and has been so for a while, and spent alot of time playing invoker when we rebalanced him last time. Saying that invoker does not need ms from the beginning is like saying boots isnt an important item to get early on, whatever you do in dota MS is important) and no. I would not get the blades over the RoR, wha tdo you see people buying most as the first item? Pretty sure its ROH and not a broadsword lol.

[Redeemed A.I.]

Originally Posted by Sejr

I did not play invoker for one week, im a betatester and has been so for a while, and spent alot of time playing invoker when we rebalanced him last time. Saying that invoker does not need ms from the beginning is like saying boots isnt an important item to get early on, whatever you do in dota MS is important) and no. I would not get the blades over the RoR, wha tdo you see people buying most as the first item? Pretty sure its ROH and not a broadsword lol.

Oh god,you really don't know how much angry you made me with this last reply...really...

Is it because I didn't flame you about your total time playing this hero?
Is it because now you do compare your ~3 months of beta testing + 1 week of in-game pracise with my 1.5 years of insane intensive in-game pracise with all kinds of skill sets/item/hero combos?
Is it because I said "if you must choose between a RoR and Blades of attack" you mention mid-late RoH and Broadsword(broadsword can still be made into bkb)?
Is it because you think 8,4/16,8/25,2 early ms can be compared with an "early" boots of speed for a 280 base ms hero with crappy life?

Last but not least,I'm pretty sure Invoker has been seen many times playing on competitive too,in difficult games of course where enemies need boots of speed in level 5 and a single circlet of nobility in various heroes like ES and Lion while end losing with gg branches in level 15..

Seriously,try playing some games with serious players,then come here and tell me about my balance problem opinions.

[Hopeless]

Invoker is a pretty strong hero already. IMO he doesn't need a buff.

[Aepyornis]

Maybe add a very Small Evasion bonus to wex like the small evasion bonus that was removed from radiance, idk if 21% evasion would be imba on lvl 7.