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Old 10-28-2010, 11:43 AM   #1
Lithary
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Lightbulb Echo Stomp [Small Remake]


Great hero, not that great skill.
It is useful, I know that, but I still, I think it could use suggested remake.
Changes are colored in orange.



Echo Stomp



Ability Type: Active
Targeting Type: Instant
Ability Hotkey: T

Calls upon the spirit of his ancestors to join him in an earth-shattering echo, rendering nearby foes unconscious. The spirit and Tauren Chieftain both deal 80 damage in the area, the Spirit dealing magical damage and the physical form dealing physical damage. Unconscious enemies will wake if they get hit, but it's movement speed will remain slowed by 35% for rest of the duration. If the spirit is separated from you, it will still perform its part of the spell. 1.4 second cast time.

Level 1 - Knocks out units for 2 seconds.

Level 1 - Knocks out units for 3 seconds.

Level 1 - Knocks out units for 4 seconds.

Level 1 - Knocks out units for 5 seconds.

Area of Effect: 475
Mana Cost: 100/115/130/145
Cooldown: 15 seconds

Notes:
• Damage type: magical (spirit), physical (tauren).
• Slow does not stack with one from Earth Splitter.




Changelog:
• November the 1st, 2010:
- Reduced slow from 35 to 25%.

• December the 7th, 2010:
- Increased slow from 25 to 35%, but not it slows MS only instead of MS and AS.
- Reduced AOE from suggested 500 to current 475.




Well, that's it.
I simply think that casting time is simply too long and that effect of the skills is not strong enough to have cooldwon and mana cost it has.
This will also not make it look like it puts units under a ladder Sleep spell and will fit skill idea more and make it a bit more logical.
I mean, I doubt that someone could just hop around like nothing happened after being hit unconscious and then suddenly woke up.
Will also make this skill have more uses other than just be a delay so your Earth Splitter can take effect.
Your thoughts on this?

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Last edited by Lithary; 04-15-2011 at 06:23 PM.
Old 10-28-2010, 01:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

I think it's valid. Maybe the slow should be staggered up? Something like 10% LVL1, 15% LVL 2 20% LVL 3 and 25% LVL 4.
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:18 PM   #3
Lithary
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiry0 View Post
I think it's valid. Maybe the slow should be staggered up? Something like 10% LVL1, 15% LVL 2 20% LVL 3 and 25% LVL 4.
No need since we have duration increased per level already.
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Old 10-28-2010, 06:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

This seems pretty good tbh. You'd still be dozy after all.
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Just for certify me: 35% ms and as slow up to 5 seconds, in case of become awaken before its final duration, huh?

This is great to make it, somewhat, a bit independent from its ult, which has large mana cost and cooldown, offering him a real disable useful to himself (able to gank without ult), not only at teambattle situations.

Great t-up to this part.

About 1 second cast time...it's not needed. Old Echo Stomp was overpowered because of "surprise factor" from its huge range.
The current one can have that surprise factor if cast from fog or, even, use Dagger to blink in front of your enemy and cast it right behind your enemy (mainly into a narrow path): there's almost no way to scape. (of course, beware about stunners, and BKB can help too).

I think this spell is still great, because it still can change the tide during a teambattle. 1.4 second is quite enough to catch enemies if they aren't constantly looking for you.

As a little buff, maybe, I'd suppose a slight increase of its AoE (from 475 -> 500 AoE). It may seems too little, but this extra area is doubled into that Dagger initiation strategy (this way, he can, with some items, be as effective as he was at older DotA versions).
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

I think it is great to have a niche for heroes that have channeling casting spells. On the top of my head, some other heroes that have casting delays/ spell delays for most of their skills are Techies and Gyrocopter. Having a casting delay means that the hero would have to be balanced to compensate the same effect as a fast casting hero. So, long/ difficult to cast spell should yield a good payoff if done right.
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

imba. tc is fine as is. t-down.
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:02 AM   #8
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
imba. tc is fine as is. t-down.
Well, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:22 AM   #9
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Talking Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
Just for certify me: 35% ms and as slow up to 5 seconds, in case of become awaken before its final duration, huh?

This is great to make it, somewhat, a bit independent from its ult, which has large mana cost and cooldown, offering him a real disable useful to himself (able to gank without ult), not only at teambattle situations.

Great t-up to this part.

About 1 second cast time...it's not needed. Old Echo Stomp was overpowered because of "surprise factor" from its huge range.
The current one can have that surprise factor if cast from fog or, even, use Dagger to blink in front of your enemy and cast it right behind your enemy (mainly into a narrow path): there's almost no way to scape. (of course, beware about stunners, and BKB can help too).

I think this spell is still great, because it still can change the tide during a teambattle. 1.4 second is quite enough to catch enemies if they aren't constantly looking for you.

As a little buff, maybe, I'd suppose a slight increase of its AoE (from 475 -> 500 AoE). It may seems too little, but this extra area is doubled into that Dagger initiation strategy (this way, he can, with some items, be as effective as he was at older DotA versions).
Thanks for the advice and support.
Will make changes based on your advice since you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dc.Nilbog View Post
I think it is great to have a niche for heroes that have channeling casting spells. On the top of my head, some other heroes that have casting delays/ spell delays for most of their skills are Techies and Gyrocopter. Having a casting delay means that the hero would have to be balanced to compensate the same effect as a fast casting hero. So, long/ difficult to cast spell should yield a good payoff if done right.
True, but the question is: 'Is effect worth that delay?'
Still, after reading Dr_JP's comment, I've decided to return it to normal since I totally forgot about him being able to cast it at huge distances with his spirit and will just increase AOE a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_ii View Post
imba. tc is fine as is. t-down.
This, just remember, those are Monsterlord's words, not mine (damn I'm such an asshole ).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Well, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Thanks for support people!
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:27 AM   #10
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

35% is too high
especially 'cause ulti also slow units
tup for concept
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Old 10-31-2010, 03:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsterlord View Post
Well, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
actually, i use tc all the time. the stun is for ur allies to come and kill. the cast time may be long, but the aoe is gigantic.
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Old 10-31-2010, 04:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by britneyspears View Post
35% is too high
especially 'cause ulti also slow units
tup for concept
35% is high, but mostly you spend 2 seconds to cast it and get close your enemies (profiting from Ancestral Spirit walking through almost everyone), so, in practical terms, it's 3 seconds slow if you hit enemy as fast as you can.
Moreover, most ppl just invest in lvl 2 or lvl 3 Echo Stomp, so now they have a reason to level it up fully.

In order to balance, this wouldn't stack with slow from his ult, ofc.
I.e., if enemies are awaken with his ult, only slow from ult works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_ii View Post
actually, i use tc all the time. the stun is for ur allies to come and kill. the cast time may be long, but the aoe is gigantic.
That's the teambattle use, and that's his main role.

OP propose allows TC to gank not necessarily with his ult, offering a disable out of his ult.

Putting enemies into sleep doesn't offer much helpness for himself, and his current slow has a very large cooldown. He won't be the meaning of a good ganker, but he would be more helpful along the game.
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Old 10-31-2010, 06:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_JP View Post
That's the teambattle use, and that's his main role.

OP propose allows TC to gank not necessarily with his ult, offering a disable out of his ult.

Putting enemies into sleep doesn't offer much helpness for himself, and his current slow has a very large cooldown. He won't be the meaning of a good ganker, but he would be more helpful along the game.
Ok, i get what ur trying to say. what i mean is that most people dont look at tc like a ganker which is what OP is suggesting. i just think this may be too strong. spirit + stomp then u pound on them for around 4 seconds because of slow? i consider tc as someone that allows people to place perfect torrents, arrows, etc instead of a ganker with a slow. i suppose ill change my vote to a t-null, but i think the slow is too high.
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Old 10-31-2010, 07:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-up
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
actually, i use tc all the time. the stun is for ur allies to come and kill. the cast time may be long, but the aoe is gigantic.
Just because you use him does not mean he's fine. Tc has been an underpowered hero for a long time now.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:27 AM   #16
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-up. Thanks for a good remake on TC.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-up for the ideea, although to much slow...maybe remove AS slow, only keep the MS one...my pov.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

woah!!!
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-Up!
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:43 AM   #20
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

increasing aoe and adding slow effect on this spell, no sry t-down
but if u add only 10% slow and dont change the aoe effect ill be t-up
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

hey, i skipped aoe increase detail.
td on it.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kom4o View Post
increasing aoe and adding slow effect on this spell, no sry t-down
but if u add only 10% slow and dont change the aoe effect ill be t-up
I've already reduced it to 25% and I think it's fine.
10% is nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by britneyspears View Post
hey, i skipped aoe increase detail.
td on it.
It's only 25 units.
Melee attack range of lot of melee heroes is 100 units.
25 units is 1/4 of that.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-up
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Old 11-05-2010, 06:16 AM   #24
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Hell yea, this is what i looking for so long,
even sven's stun has 15 second cd as well but it just hardly to be dodge,
T-up for the overall scaling,
for me the -25% as could be skip, as Lithary suggested, this buff are trying to give tc a better laning gank and crush ability, -25% as sounds like late game purpose(wonder if i right). And sorry for the bad english
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Last edited by kby0615; 11-24-2010 at 04:50 AM.
Old 11-06-2010, 08:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Thanks for support!
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:05 AM   #26
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

t-up for sure

TC is really weak right now, i think that a slow and small AOE increased for Echo Stomp could buff him

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Old 11-07-2010, 02:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

totaly agree , the echo require buff t-up
i think a small damage scale would be nice , like 80,120,160,200
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Old 11-09-2010, 03:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Rinnegan_ View Post
totaly agree , the echo require buff t-up
i think a small damage scale would be nice , like 80,120,160,200
I would like to do that, but I think that this skills main purpose is to disable your enemies, not damage them.
With this buff it could do that really effectively, while in my opinion it isn't that good at doing that now.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven2k View Post
T-up
this
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:47 PM   #30
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

it will be better if icefrog add slow
this knockout is too weak ...
and after it tc will be a good slower (this skill + ult)
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly_theK1ng View Post
it will be better if icefrog add slow
this knockout is too weak ...
and after it tc will be a good slower (this skill + ult)
True.
Main problem is that it's too situational.
This will make it way more useful in my opinion and not just as a delay so your ultimate can take effect.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:22 AM   #32
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Gives him some decent ganking power.

T-up.
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Old 11-13-2010, 08:22 AM   #33
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

T-Up!
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:26 PM   #34
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Thanks for support!
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

very great idea for nunorganized pub games. but imba for norm players/
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:07 PM   #36
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

I feel T-UP in the air. But it will maybe need some tweaks and testz to be proved as balanced.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:32 PM   #37
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Totally T-Up. Very nice job !

FizzBoy.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

a knockout and a slow on a 500 AoE seems too powerful. Maybe make the cooldown longer or something.

other than that, T-Up
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Old 11-16-2010, 03:10 PM   #39
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sha1ze View Post
very great idea for nunorganized pub games. but imba for norm players/
I don't think that 25% is much.
It would be imba only if normal player uses TC against pub player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazy View Post
I feel T-UP in the air. But it will maybe need some tweaks and testz to be proved as balanced.
True.
I was thinking of making it slow MS only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFizzBoy View Post
Totally T-Up. Very nice job !

FizzBoy.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLiTHe_ View Post
a knockout and a slow on a 500 AoE seems too powerful. Maybe make the cooldown longer or something.

other than that, T-Up
Current AOE is 475, so I don't think it's a big deal and cooldown is already big enough.
Remember that this skill does very little damage and has 1.4 second cast time.
Like I said, only maybe change slow to MS only and that's that.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:20 AM   #40
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Default Re: Echo Stomp [Small Remake]

No need to increase stomp damage, Ancestral Spirit dmg + buff + Aura is there to compensate imho. The AS slow I think is not needed, but that's just me.

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