[REMAKE] Blind --> Whirling Axes

[BattledOne]

Originally Posted by Heelz

It's "explained" in one sentence in his "story". Supposedly Troll summons a searing light that blinds his target, according to the skill description. So apparently, Troll has light creating powers?

OK, we somehow believe that Huskar is a holly martyr or whatewer and that is because he uses some magical powers and skills.... WHAT I DON'T GET WHY THE FUCK TROLL WARLORD (war (!) lord, anything saying about sacred and anything else about light powers?) CAN CALL UPON AN SEARING LIGHT? This shows that his theme is flawed. Very flawed. He desperately needs a remake.

[JJE92]

Originally Posted by Heelz

Well, that's a nice project, but I think you should be careful not to over-generalize to the point that you can't except a change to a hero. If you had started that project long ago before many heroes were remade, would you have protested certain changes? Weaver, for example, has had three different first skills, and I think the current one perfectly fits his theme and playstyle over the previous two. If he still had Watchers, would you rationalize why they're part of his theme and don't need a change?

Tbh, I'm always trying to be careful. Doing remakes is probably the hardest jobs. With new heroes, you can only disappoint people about the new hero. With remakes, you can disappoint them about removing the old one and about the new one.

About Weaver: Well, I can only remember his old first skill, Urna Swarm. Idk the first skill before that, so if you could send me some link or explain it to me, that would be helpful.
Anyway, to the point. Weaver was and is the master of mobility and guerilla tactics in dota. He can go in the battle, burst some damage, go out and shortly afterwards go back in the battle and repeat this method for quite a time with his constant bursts of max speed and invis, his double damage every 6-2 seconds and Time Lapse also supporting this and even helping out if something should go wrong on one guerilla attack.
His first ability always was the weakest link, the ability to support his other skills and his concept, but not the defining one.
Earlier on, the surprise explosions of the scarabs served for some great ambushes and can weaken enemies, sometimes even fatally. I'd say they were totally in that concept, but still not really defining this role.
The new ability show another aspect of these guerilla attacks. If used correctly in a team battle, it can create a lot of chaos. They are constantly under attack, but can't really deal with it, because they can't spare 4 attacks to kill them. Furthermore, with each attack, their armor gets further reduced, increasing your burst damage even more. With its long range, this skill can come out of nowhere, same as Weaver, giving another surprise effect which fits to his concept. Again, totally in his concept.

I'm afraid that I personally don't like both the old and the new ability that much, I didn't care much when it was changed, I was more shocked when I saw that Ursa Swarm replaced Nerubian Assassin's skill, because I think the old one suited him a lot better than this one, but w.e., that's another story.


Another example: Storm Spirit.
The old Storm Spirit was a relatively boring hero, the only really interesting thing was counting to 8 attacks
He didn't really have a clear concept, but with his remake, he got probably one of the coolest skills in dota and a clear and unique concept: "Bouncing around the battlefield using alternately his spammable skills and his attack, which gets improved after casting a skill."
I think it can be said without any arguments that this was one of the best remakes in DotA ever, seeing as how often he's used in both pubs and competetive games.

Originally Posted by Heelz

Besides, there are other heroes who only do damage by attacking so Troll isn't unique (nor is he the best) in that sense. Drow is the biggest example. Clinkz relies completely on physical attacks, yet he has 4 active skills (which is pretty unique).

Pure fighter doesn't have to mean "can't have any active skills". You wouldn't argue that Ezalor isn't a pure supporter, but he has a very strong AoE nuke. Should a support hero be able to do 500 magical damage in a large AoE?

Well, Troll has seen some slight remakes, but his concept always stayed the same. He never had any skill that has nothing to do with normal attacks. That's why I think it's fair to acknowledge that this is really his concept. And as I said, his concept isn't flawed at all, in contrast to e.g. old Storm Spirit. Therefore, it shouldn't be changed.

The concept isn't only doing damage by attacking, not at all. Didn't you read what I've written? I mean Drow and Clinkz only deal damage by attacking, but not all of their skills focus on improving or worsening normal attacks. That's the unique concept of Troll Warlord.

Originally Posted by Heelz

It's "explained" in one sentence in his "story". Supposedly Troll summons a searing light that blinds his target, according to the skill description. So apparently, Troll has light creating powers?

Originally Posted by BattledOne

OK, we somehow believe that Huskar is a holly martyr or whatewer and that is because he uses some magical powers and skills.... WHAT I DON'T GET WHY THE FUCK TROLL WARLORD (war (!) lord, anything saying about sacred and anything else about light powers?) CAN CALL UPON AN SEARING LIGHT? This shows that his theme is flawed. Very flawed. He desperately needs a remake.

In his story there's nothing about this. It only tells about his "trademark blind technique".
The description says "a searing light blinds", but it says nothing about summoning a searing light. You could imagine anything, even that he somehow reflects light from his axes so that enemies get blinded

[stealthfire]

you know, theres an easy way to tie-in the normal attack bit and making it less boring bit, we just need to learn from morphling and riki. Change the damage of the axe-throwing to be scalable with minor bonus damage like morph attack and blinkstrike.

Also, I imagine a real troll on a rampage would be flipping tables and tossing chairs in a barfight, why can't he do something more flashy than attack normally? This suits the theme better, and conformance to theme > conformance to 'concept'. A 'concept' should be adhered to if this was a game like TF2 with much fewer classes so as not to remove a class with an important and irreplacable role.

In contrast, a 'concept' should be molded according to the greater calling of balance, need for improvement and better adherance to the theme in a game where he has no place any longer thanks to many who do it better than him.

to naysayers : icefrog took your precious 'concept' of razor and storm, flung it out the window and made new ones. These were heroes that had something in common with troll prior to their transformation. I rest my case.

[arvinkasumi]

change the meelee form of this skill to...

Blind...
"smashes his axes so strong it produces a spark that blinds enemies around him...(25%/50%/75%/100% miss) for X sec in an Y aoe

Don't copy Kael's Sound Blast's effect, it won't work for you cos enemies that can't attack will "auto move away from damage source",

with this, complete miss
they still attack you but
they don't dmg you,
they stay beside you ^^,
they got stunned more readily.
and the Blind in not remove so no "change story and name" needed.


hope this helps
tweak if you want.

[Ichigo]

THIS IS SO SEXY.

:3.

T-UP mang

[Shadow Fury]

Complete T-Up!

[Kaiverrettu]

Originally Posted by L..

Slow is too high and disarm is too strong.
Last level should be 25% slow for 2 seconds and 1 second disarm.
Troll can right click any hero in mid or lategame in less than 4 seconds meaning this would be a sure kill against any hero.
In my experience once you hit ONE BASH with troll, your opponent is dead because in those 2 seconds stun you will most likely kill him.

Are you stupid? The op just described that even in lategame, right clicking to win is not quaranteed.. I think you're just a regular pubber that already see troll as a problem as he is(lol) and fail to see the bigger picture

[AncientRune]

T-up
maybe reduce the disarming time

[Heelz]

I think 4 seconds disarm is fair. It's a soft disable that still allows kiting, spellcasting, and item usage. Centaur's stun is 2.75 seconds, Axe's call is 3 seconds and both are essentially full disables. Riki's Smoke silences and makes attacks nearly useless, forcing you to run out of the AoE.

Just because you can't attack Troll doesn't mean you're powerless against him.

[CaptainPlatypus]

I like it. I don't think troll will be particularly competitively viable even with it, but it can't hurt.

[KuroNeko]

Interesting concept (throwing his axes) but

1) Doesn't rexxar have this (axes)? be sure to differentiate them (and... 2 axes, not 3 please)

2) 4 second disarm is crazy powerful. Careful with the numbers there.

[iLotus018]

Fuck this, T-Up.

[vvjacobo]

i like it t-up

[Teo_live]

t-down for me

It will make Troll OP and it will turn him into a skill spammer, that will ruin his gameplay. He will be a rip off rexxar

The animations look nice, I wouldn't mind it if the axes did no damage or if they did passive autochance damage.

[dreamcatcher0]

the updated melee form animation is much better and makes me go wow!! i love it much more now.

[Glowackos]

looks lovely; maybe make it so that for melee form, when he chucks those axes around in a tornado, he himself is unable to attck until they return to him. This way, the 4 sec attack disable might not be so devastating.
Ofc you could then reduce the time it takes for the axes to return to him. Something like not being able to attack for 1s would be decent. While unable to attack, hed still be able to set himself up by moving/casting spells so he's ready to rape when his axes return.
I'm assuming these are going to be two separate skills that share a cooldown yah?
t-up! Post a testmap!

[TenienteMani]

Post testmap

[riekk]

HEELZ I LOVE U!! This should be implemented. ITS SO COOOOOL!!

[Sock Rats]

T-Up

[Uniteks]

T-Up.
Perfectly fits hes theme and is just what he needs.